On 02/13/2016 09:43 AM, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

On samedi, 13 février 2016 06.13:40 h CET sdm wrote:

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On 02/13/2016 01:48 AM, Alin Marin Elena wrote:

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Dear All,

Having in mind the discussions appeared lately about KDE Neon... I think we shall have an official postion since we still ship kde as default de. My main concern is that bugs reported from anything else than neon will be considered non-kde. Already had this experience working in a kde project with some of the supporters of neon...

for background: this is Bryan article http://www.networkworld.com/article/3032063/opensource-subnet/kdes-new-linux... a more interesting because of comments version https://plus.google.com/+BryanLunduke/posts/XfLoyBaxeea

the kde-promo mailing list (this got censored to prevent the best coming out from neon supporters) [kde-promo] KDE Neon and how to handle this?

an interesting link on reedit... In which the is kde neon a distro question is answered... by one of the neon people... https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/43tp4i/ is_kde_neon_a_distribution_or_not/ ten days ago seems the answer is: yes, and is indeed a fork/continuation of some other distro three days ago the answer seems to be yes and no...

Regards, Alin "We use Ubuntu as a base for KDE neon because we feel it offers the best technology as a stable release and the best third-party support. The KDE neon team is familiar with Ubuntu, having worked with it for over a decade. We also feel that Ubuntu users will miss out if they do not have up-to-date KDE software." http://neon.kde.org.uk/faq

Interesting; they are saying Ubuntu offers the "best" technology -- a distro that doesn't have anything to do with KDE. I guess us openSUSE users are using an inferior platform according to the KDE Neon team. Do we really need yet another distro when new Linux users are already overwhelmed by the amount of distros currently out there and learning how to use Linux? Neon is a stupid idea, and obviously the person who made that quote let his own personal bias be made public. That FAQ really should be modified. So now we have yet another fork of Ubuntu, which is a fork of Debian. Just what we needed.

sdm

I've stay away from the fight, and my answer (if only it's one). Only the facts are important. We here as supporters of KDE ecosystems, helped and served by the fantastic team of packagers and maintainers we have around, should only work together in one way : make and prove that all of this sh...t is bullsh...t

Make openSUSE the perfect reference in terms of integration, polished, and fresh !

We will need braves souls to go to Berlin this year at Akademy, run an openSUSE booth with our both products Leap and Tumbleweed and be proud about what we do.

Being Green, Proud, Standing up in front of adversity is how we will win at the end.

Really what this all boils down to is who controls what. People within the KDE dev team want to have a higher degree of control over their dev work, because obviously they aren't happy with SUSE or Fedora KDE, Arch, etc. We are not good enough for them. So it's essentially them giving SUSE and every other distro that has been around for many years the middle finger and going off in their own direction. We don't need a dev team that creates a desktop environment creating their own distribution. That is unheard of, and for good reason. That's obviously permitted with the GPL, but then we are permitted to criticize the idea and let the community know to avoid the project and why. Then the project fails all on its own, which I think this one will. It sounds like a divide is beginning to happen within the KDE team. Bug fixes are unanswered for years, plasmashell crashes for people constantly, there are numerous bugs open about serious problems with Plasma 5 that just sit there, and all this when GNOME 3 runs pretty much just fine. Are we blind to just sit there and let all this happen and not take any actions? I suggest that openSUSE starts looking at switching to GNOME as the default desktop, and we can have a GNOME 3.x that has a taskbar at the bottom so it's Windows-like, and some default sensible options like having the minimize/maximize buttons there by default. I don't particularly care for GNOME, but I am very bothered today by this news and nothing is changing my opinion about it, and it's very disturbing and unwelcoming. In the Linux world, we have amazing things happening in so many areas, then you have stories coming out about this total Neon turd idea. sdm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

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Bug fixes are unanswered for years, plasmashell crashes for people constantly, there are numerous bugs open about serious problems with Plasma 5 that just sit there,

I know there's never enough resources, but if I had a magic-wand, I'd say opensuse needs it's OWN "KDE Neon" . But that smells like a fork, doesn't it? How can we have a NEON KDE when we are dependent on upstream? It would depend on how many KDE developers would develop solely for SUSE, and in

On 02/13/2016 10:10 AM, billb@sent.at wrote: the case here, it looks as though a large majority of KDE devs are going full force into this Neon idea. So Neon for SUSE doesn't work. If it did, then the KDE devs would be partial to SUSE and we'd sort of already have a Neon or the idea would be there. But these KDE devs are partial to Ubuntu, as "it's the best technology". sdm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

billb@sent.at composed on 2016-02-13 10:10 (UTC-0800):

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Bug fixes are unanswered for years, plasmashell crashes for people constantly, there are numerous bugs open about serious problems with Plasma 5 that just sit there,

And there^^ is the core of it all.

That's absolutely true.

To add to it:

Here at opensuse we're often just told to "file a bug with upstream"

But

(1) upstream frequently ask now "why is that feature that used to work important to you at all?", and when user-reasons are given, they're just dismissed. (2) In some cases, the upstream devs are getting literally abusive when these issues are brought up by "just users". (3) Half the time KDE upstream blames Qt-upstream. And they're even worse about responses. (4) When the arguments run out, the answer goes back to "We do this for free, you have no rights to anything" and "fix it yourself".

But "KDE5" is anything but 'stable'. Since KDE4 is abandonded since basically 2015, and KDE5 is unstable.

It's a vicious cycle.

What's our choice anymore?

For those interested in a stable "KDE": https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/OpenSUSEInstall For those who can live with a couple quirks, thanks mainly to Ilya, we still have KDE3 for all openSUSE versions: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/ It's a shame neither KDE3 nor TDE can be on the DVD, but it's not difficult to do a minimal X installation and then employ YaST to install either. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/13/2016 10:17 AM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

In data sabato 13 febbraio 2016 09:57:59 CET, sdm ha scritto:

Hello,

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Really what this all boils down to is who controls what. People within the KDE dev team want to have a higher degree of control over their dev since I'm both part of the openSUSE Community KDE team and also am part of KDE, I've noticed a few factually incorrect assertions here.

There is NO KDE dev team. KDE is a do-ocracy: those who do the work, decide. There's no steering committee of any kind. In fact, the KDE e.V. has no power to influence development. Also people involved in Plasma aren't the same involved in the applications, and only marginally the same involved in Frameworks.

Most people involved in Plasma aren't even Ubuntu users. They use a combination of Netrunner, Manjaro, Arch, even openSUSE.

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SUSE and every other distro that has been around for many years the middle finger and going off in their own direction. We don't need a dev This is not the case. Several people spoke in defense of openSUSE when people went too far in the maling list, and KDE people who overstepped their bounds were reprimanded (and if they weren't, I'm ensuring they are).

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constantly, there are numerous bugs open about serious problems with Plasma 5 that just sit there, and all this when GNOME 3 runs pretty much There is a serious effort going on triaging bugs (I follow the Plasma ML directly) and on improving the user experience. I suggest you read the posts of Kai Uwe Broulik on PlanetKDE.

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just fine. Are we blind to just sit there and let all this happen and not take any actions? I suggest that openSUSE starts looking at No need for pitchforks. I have spent a lot of the little time I use for openSUSE contribution to foster and improve our relationships with KDE and honestly I'm not allowing all this work to go to waste just because someone gets the wrong idea. Besides, as I said above, there's no need for pitchforks because people are totally getting upset for the *wrong reasons*.

We deliver software to users, we don't make the software directly. I think it's better to fix the "supply chain" than breaking everything with a hissy fit. I suggest reading again the Asimov quote I posted.

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this news and nothing is changing my opinion about it, and it's very Facts should, at least. ;)

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happening in so many areas, then you have stories coming out about this total Neon turd idea. Sorry, but as people from KDE helped me to prevent disrespect towards our distribution, there's no need to do the reverse.

So in that total mess of text, what you are saying is the KDE project is a complete disarray and totally disorganized. Thanks for the info. It's obvious now that you like the Neon idea and are defending it, so now it's obvious you are biased also. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/13/2016 10:26 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* sdm [02-13-16 13:21]: [...]

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So in that total mess of text, what you are saying is the KDE project is a complete disarray and totally disorganized. Thanks for the info. It's obvious now that you like the Neon idea and are defending it, so now it's obvious you are biased also. The only *obvious* thing here is that you *completely* failed to read and/or comprehend the post!

It is fine to have feelings about something but throwing sand into the air accomplishes nothing but the possibility of getting sand into one's eye and infuriating him/her/....

No, I comprehended it please don't post idiotic nonfactual accusations regarding me not understanding something. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

In data sabato 13 febbraio 2016 10:30:12 CET, sdm ha scritto:

don't need that for our users, and new users. I'm also not going to stop either, Neon is a turd and it will fail. Plain and simple. If you don't like me saying that, too bad.

I hope you realize, at least , that you're making *our* (as openSUSE KDE team) job harder with such statements. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: A29D259B

In data sabato 13 febbraio 2016 15:22:39 CET, Alin Marin Elena ha scritto: Hey Alin,

with an entity that tolerates ad hominem attacks to others? Shall I stand quiet when one of ours is attacked because of his opinions?

The reason can be explained eloquently by this Asimov quote from "The Caves of Steel": 'The robot said, 'I have been trying, friend Julius, to understand some remarks Elijah made to me earlier. Perhaps I am beginning to, for it suddenly seems to me that the destruction of what should not be, that is, the destruction of what you people call evil, is less just and desirable than the conversion of this evil into what you call good.' There's absolutely no point in breeding more conflict if you know it won't bring anything to the table. Believe me - I'm part of KDE for longer than I've been in openSUSE, so I think that even if there is conflict, we must strive to solve it in a way that does not bring us harm in the long run. In that precise moment, everyone's pretty upset and I think it would be catastrophic to add more fuel to the fire. We bring KDE software to users, let's not forget about that. Why should we jeopardize our relationship with people that make software *WE* distribute over what is no more than politics?

Until today I thought I am member of opensuse KDE team, turns out I was not anymore (no idea when the decision was taken), just to add to our

I would suggest you to reconsider. See the quote I made before for why. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: A29D259B