[opensuse-kde] Apper on a rampage again, help me figure it out so I can file a robust report
On one machine it will constantly start and fail updating automatically, showing numerous zombie processes. On the other machine it "pretends" to update while packagekitd is basicaly idling at 2%CPU (I have weak CPU). -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/11 07:03, Roger Luedecke wrote:
On one machine it will constantly start and fail updating automatically, showing numerous zombie processes. On the other machine it "pretends" to update while packagekitd is basicaly idling at 2%CPU (I have weak CPU). I just don't use it -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 07 December 2011 23:03:15 Roger Luedecke wrote:
On one machine it will constantly start and fail updating automatically, showing numerous zombie processes. On the other machine it "pretends" to update while packagekitd is basicaly idling at 2%CPU (I have weak CPU).
Zerothly, is this using automatic update or updating manually upon notification? Firstly, what Apper/PackageKit versions are you using? Give the repo used (I hope: KDE:Distro:Stable for Apper and openSUSE:12.1:Update for PackageKit). Secondly, what patches are available on each machine according to "zypper patches"? Given this information I can recreate the situation locally, Thirdly, does "pretends" mean you select packages, authenticate, it downloads, it "installs" them, then you are back to the update list with the previously selected set of updates? Are all those steps present or is it downloading without installing? Will -- Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 8. december 2011 11:44:23 skrev Will Stephenson:
On Wednesday 07 December 2011 23:03:15 Roger Luedecke wrote:
On one machine it will constantly start and fail updating automatically, showing numerous zombie processes. On the other machine it "pretends" to update while packagekitd is basicaly idling at 2%CPU (I have weak CPU).
Zerothly, is this using automatic update or updating manually upon notification?
Firstly, what Apper/PackageKit versions are you using? Give the repo used (I hope: KDE:Distro:Stable for Apper and openSUSE:12.1:Update for PackageKit).
Secondly, what patches are available on each machine according to "zypper patches"? Given this information I can recreate the situation locally,
You probably need to take into account that Apper (pk zypp backend) not only installs patches - but also all the funky updates from 3rd party repos by default. So I guess you need 'zypper lu' output. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Roger, I've had all sorts of problems with package management within KDE. I'm this close to dumping SuSE altogether. It's such basic functionality that simply should not be a problem in 2011, yet we get this sort of behaviour. I can't say it strongly enough: this needs to be fixed. openSuSE 11.3 is out of support soon, and if 12.1 isn't fixed in short order, there will be NO version of SuSE available which has package management working from within KDE. I have dozens of users I've been holding off updating, and I can't start shipping until this problem is fixed! Please, do continue to report issues you encounter, because the more people are prepared to report, perhaps the issue will receive proper attention. Malvern.
On one machine it will constantly start and fail updating automatically, showing numerous zombie processes. On the other machine it "pretends" to update while packagekitd is basicaly idling at 2%CPU (I have weak CPU). -- Roger Luedecke
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2011, 23:14:12 schrieb Malvern Star:
I've had all sorts of problems with package management within KDE. I'm this close to dumping SuSE altogether. It's such basic functionality that simply should not be a problem in 2011, yet we get this sort of behaviour. I can't say it strongly enough: this needs to be fixed.
So what problems did encounter and where did you report them? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2011, 23:14:12 schrieb Malvern Star:
I've had all sorts of problems with package management within KDE. I'm this close to dumping SuSE altogether. It's such basic functionality that simply should not be a problem in 2011, yet we get this sort of behaviour. I can't say it strongly enough: this needs to be fixed.
So what problems did encounter and where did you report them?
I originally reported that it was not possible to update from within KDE if needing to accept an EULA when openSuSE 11.4 was released. I updated that bug during the 12.1 testing phase, but it was not resolved and is now in fact worse. The original report was closed and a new one was created to track the issue better. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=729892 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Malvern Star said the following on 12/08/2011 10:53 AM:
Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2011, 23:14:12 schrieb Malvern Star:
I've had all sorts of problems with package management within KDE. I'm this close to dumping SuSE altogether. It's such basic functionality that simply should not be a problem in 2011, yet we get this sort of behaviour. I can't say it strongly enough: this needs to be fixed.
So what problems did encounter and where did you report them?
I originally reported that it was not possible to update from within KDE if needing to accept an EULA when openSuSE 11.4 was released.
I don't encounter that 11.4 when using YAST to add/update, for example, Java from Oracle or, in the past, Sun. I don't recall encounter that problem in 11.1/2/3 either. I do have a problem with the Brightalk Webcasts telling me that my browser (FF) doesn't have Java installed. Funny, I run _other_ Java applications there and I don't know why Brightalk complains, but that has nothing to do with accepting the EULA.
I updated that bug during the 12.1 testing phase, but it was not resolved and is now in fact worse. The original report was closed and a new one was created to track the issue better.
I don't understand this lemming rush to upgrade to 12.1 for mission critical systems. I'm glad people _are_ upgrading and working out the problems, but in a more "corporate" setting I'd have though that a risk analysis - examining the upside and downside - would apply. Its clear that the hurdles of 12.1 make it unsuitable for an enterprise-wide upgrade of business and mission critical systems. This isn't odd. On the other hand 11.4 has matured and is stable and has a lot of fixes. Yes, installing from the old DVD will result in a lot of updates from the repositories, but so what? Perhaps you should cut a new DVD. -- "The top line is the value you give. The bottom line is the value you get. Companies that worry about the top line never have to worry about the bottom line." -- Christopher Anvil, "Top Line" Analog Science Fiction, February 1, 1982 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 9. Dezember 2011, 00:53:28 schrieb Malvern Star:
Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2011, 23:14:12 schrieb Malvern Star:
I've had all sorts of problems with package management within KDE. I'm this close to dumping SuSE altogether. It's such basic functionality that simply should not be a problem in 2011, yet we get this sort of behaviour. I can't say it strongly enough: this needs to be fixed.
So what problems did encounter and where did you report them?
I originally reported that it was not possible to update from within KDE if needing to accept an EULA when openSuSE 11.4 was released. I updated that bug during the 12.1 testing phase, but it was not resolved and is now in fact worse. The original report was closed and a new one was created to track the issue better.
That's your "all sorts of problems"? And I might be wrong but this is not even apper's but packageKit's/zypp's fault and hence not a KDE bug. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Malvern Star said the following on 12/08/2011 09:14 AM:
I've had all sorts of problems with package management within KDE. I'm this close to dumping SuSE altogether.
I'm confused by what you say. I'm a KDE user. I use Zypper (from the command line) and Yast to do updates. The command line has nothing to do with KDE. Yast is a GUI that can run under KDE, Gnome, LXDE or even in terminal mode.
It's such basic functionality that simply should not be a problem in 2011, yet we get this sort of behaviour.
What behaviour? Are you reporting/tracking/following up on bug reports?
I can't say it strongly enough: this needs to be fixed. openSuSE 11.3 is out of support soon, and if 12.1 isn't fixed in short order, there will be NO version of SuSE available which has package management working from within KDE.
Well KDE aside, I use 11.4, quite reliably, and have for some while. And intend to for some while yet. So your issues seem overblown to me.
I have dozens of users I've been holding off updating,
Do you mean updating or upgrading?
and I can't start shipping
That sound more like "installing".
until this problem is fixed! Please, do continue to report issues you encounter, because the more people are prepared to report, perhaps the issue will receive proper attention.
Have you tried 11.4? If not why not? -- If you need to be told what your values are the implication is that you don't hold them right now. If you hold your values strongly enough, you don't need to print them out and stick them on a wall. If everyone shares them, they don't need to read them off a wall, either. -- Marcus J. Ranum -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
I've had all sorts of problems with package management within KDE. I'm this close to dumping SuSE altogether.
I'm confused by what you say. I'm a KDE user. I use Zypper (from the command line) and Yast to do updates.
The command line has nothing to do with KDE.
Yast is a GUI that can run under KDE, Gnome, LXDE or even in terminal mode.
This is not the issue. My issue relates to package management within KDE, without starting YaST, as the majority of my users are generally competent with computers, but essentially "non-technical". They are basically, "average users".
It's such basic functionality that simply should not be a problem in 2011, yet we get this sort of behaviour.
What behaviour? Are you reporting/tracking/following up on bug reports?
Yes. I have been diligent on testing and reporting ever since the issue was first reported here: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=700526
I can't say it strongly enough: this needs to be fixed. openSuSE 11.3 is out of support soon, and if 12.1 isn't fixed in short order, there will be NO version of SuSE available which has package management working from within KDE.
Well KDE aside, I use 11.4, quite reliably, and have for some while. And intend to for some while yet. So your issues seem overblown to me.
No. Users should be able to update. End of story.
I have dozens of users I've been holding off updating,
Do you mean updating or upgrading?
and I can't start shipping
That sound more like "installing".
Let me spell it out: I have users on 11.3. They need to be moved to 12.1. I cannot do this until they are able to install updates from within their desktop environment (and also they need to be able to eject optical discs, but that is a separate bug).
until this problem is fixed! Please, do continue to report issues you encounter, because the more people are prepared to report, perhaps the issue will receive proper attention.
Have you tried 11.4? If not why not?
11.4 also cannot install updates from within KDE due to an infinite loop when the user attempts to install updates which require EULA acceptance. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 8. december 2011 17:00:38 skrev Malvern Star:
Yast is a GUI that can run under KDE, Gnome, LXDE or even in terminal mode.
This is not the issue. My issue relates to package management within KDE, without starting YaST, as the majority of my users are generally competent with computers, but essentially "non-technical". They are basically, "average users".
Why do "average users" use non-default/non-recommended package management? I can understand they complain about non-working updater applets since SUSE hasn't had a smooth updater since 10.0. But if they use Apper for "normal" package management they're _asking_ for trouble. And basically "doing it wrong". Personally I'd wish it was possible to only include the updater applet part of Apper and exclude the rest from the default install. Since I'm sick and tired of people using KPK/Apper for jobs that should be done with yast/zypper. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 8. december 2011 17:00:38 skrev Malvern Star:
Yast is a GUI that can run under KDE, Gnome, LXDE or even in terminal mode.
This is not the issue. My issue relates to package management within KDE, without starting YaST, as the majority of my users are generally competent with computers, but essentially "non-technical". They are basically, "average users".
Why do "average users" use non-default/non-recommended package management?
They don't. Packages that require the user to select an EULA (flash-player primarily) prevent updates from installing.
I can understand they complain about non-working updater applets since SUSE hasn't had a smooth updater since 10.0.
But if they use Apper for "normal" package management they're _asking_ for trouble. And basically "doing it wrong".
Installing updates is *basic functionality*. Why even bother having a system tray update application if you don't expect it to work.
Personally I'd wish it was possible to only include the updater applet part of Apper and exclude the rest from the default install. Since I'm sick and tired of people using KPK/Apper for jobs that should be done with yast/zypper.
I'd agree with this, except that not even updates work. For goodness sake, the update applet doesn't even check for updates except immediately after booting now. This was not the case when 11.4 was first released. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, December 09, 2011 01:54:59 AM Malvern Star wrote:
Torsdag den 8. december 2011 17:00:38 skrev Malvern Star:
Yast is a GUI that can run under KDE, Gnome, LXDE or even in terminal mode.
This is not the issue. My issue relates to package management within KDE, without starting YaST, as the majority of my users are generally competent with computers, but essentially "non-technical". They are basically, "average users".
Why do "average users" use non-default/non-recommended package management? They don't. Packages that require the user to select an EULA (flash-player primarily) prevent updates from installing.
I can understand they complain about non-working updater applets since SUSE hasn't had a smooth updater since 10.0.
But if they use Apper for "normal" package management they're _asking_ for trouble. And basically "doing it wrong".
Installing updates is *basic functionality*. Why even bother having a system tray update application if you don't expect it to work.
Personally I'd wish it was possible to only include the updater applet part of Apper and exclude the rest from the default install. Since I'm sick and tired of people using KPK/Apper for jobs that should be done with yast/zypper. I'd agree with this, except that not even updates work. For goodness sake, the update applet doesn't even check for updates except immediately after booting now. This was not the case when 11.4 was first released. I agree with most of your points excepting this one, I have seen Apper check for updates at times other than system boot. In regards to the matter of EULA, I think I vaguely recall succesfully updating Flash with Apper. -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday, December 08, 2011 05:15:43 PM Martin Schlander wrote:
Torsdag den 8. december 2011 17:00:38 skrev Malvern Star:
Yast is a GUI that can run under KDE, Gnome, LXDE or even in terminal mode.
This is not the issue. My issue relates to package management within KDE, without starting YaST, as the majority of my users are generally competent with computers, but essentially "non-technical". They are basically, "average users".
Why do "average users" use non-default/non-recommended package management?
I can understand they complain about non-working updater applets since SUSE hasn't had a smooth updater since 10.0.
But if they use Apper for "normal" package management they're _asking_ for trouble. And basically "doing it wrong".
Personally I'd wish it was possible to only include the updater applet part of Apper and exclude the rest from the default install. Since I'm sick and tired of people using KPK/Apper for jobs that should be done with yast/zypper. Apper is included by default, and put front and center. How is that possible to interpret as "non-default/non-recommended package management?" -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Fredag den 9. december 2011 07:07:29 skrev Roger Luedecke:
Apper is included by default, and put front and center. How is that possible to interpret as "non-default/non-recommended package management?"
It's only put front and center as an updater applet. For "generic" packkage management it's nearly impossible not to know that YaST and zypper are the official, SUSE tools. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Fredag den 9. december 2011 07:07:29 skrev Roger Luedecke:
Apper is included by default, and put front and center. How is that possible to interpret as "non-default/non-recommended package management?"
It's only put front and center as an updater applet.
For "generic" packkage management it's nearly impossible not to know that YaST and zypper are the official, SUSE tools.
That's precisely the point - my *average* users need to be able to install updates. They rarely need to install software. How is this even a debate?! Updating for KDE users is broken. It is a key, basic functionality. It should be of a high priority. Ordinary users do not use the command line. If I told them they had to learn to do so in order to get updates they would interpret this as an *insult*, and rightly so. Ordinary users should not be playing around in YaST, because it is too easy for them to break other things accidentally. This is why the updater applet exists - it is perfect for ordinary desktop users. It should appear periodically, and let them know that updates are available. They will click on it and provide their password in order to update, but that is the *most* you can expect of them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 10. Dezember 2011, 12:36:08 schrieb Malvern Star:
That's precisely the point - my *average* users need to be able to install updates. They rarely need to install software. How is this even a debate?! Updating for KDE users is broken. It is a key, basic functionality. It should be of a high priority.
Works for me and my family – so I guess we are smarter than your average user. ;-)
Ordinary users do not use the command line. If I told them they had to learn to do so in order to get updates they would interpret this as an *insult*, and rightly so.
Funny definition of an insult.
Ordinary users should not be playing around in YaST, because it is too easy for them to break other things accidentally.
You mean they accidentally click on "printer" and remove their printer although they aimed for "update" or confuse "update" with "partition manager"?
This is why the updater applet exists - it is perfect for ordinary desktop users. It should appear periodically, and let them know that updates are available. They will click on it and provide their password in order to update, but that is the *most* you can expect of them.
Their password? Don't you need root access by default for any package management? What happens if you start updating again after accepting the EULA? BTW: Users with an admin should not have to update anything themselves. Users without should know what they are doing. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
AFAIK apper works as expected.
It does not look like a native application in a KDE environment though.
Apper is sort of visually alien. So perhaps apper could be configured to
inherit the user's / system's KDE style?
Olav
På Sat, 10 Dec 2011 10:25:03 +0100, skrev Sven Burmeister
Am Samstag, 10. Dezember 2011, 12:36:08 schrieb Malvern Star:
That's precisely the point - my *average* users need to be able to install updates. They rarely need to install software. How is this even a debate?! Updating for KDE users is broken. It is a key, basic functionality. It should be of a high priority.
Works for me and my family – so I guess we are smarter than your average user. ;-)
Ordinary users do not use the command line. If I told them they had to learn to do so in order to get updates they would interpret this as an *insult*, and rightly so.
Funny definition of an insult.
Ordinary users should not be playing around in YaST, because it is too easy for them to break other things accidentally.
You mean they accidentally click on "printer" and remove their printer although they aimed for "update" or confuse "update" with "partition manager"?
This is why the updater applet exists - it is perfect for ordinary desktop users. It should appear periodically, and let them know that updates are available. They will click on it and provide their password in order to update, but that is the *most* you can expect of them.
Their password? Don't you need root access by default for any package management?
What happens if you start updating again after accepting the EULA?
BTW: Users with an admin should not have to update anything themselves. Users without should know what they are doing.
Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
-- Olav P. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:23:26 AM Olav P. wrote:
AFAIK apper works as expected.
It does not look like a native application in a KDE environment though. Apper is sort of visually alien. So perhaps apper could be configured to inherit the user's / system's KDE style? That is bizaare. It looks correct on my system. It should since it doesn't need to run as root. -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 10. Dezember 2011, 12:36:08 schrieb Malvern Star:
That's precisely the point - my *average* users need to be able to install updates. They rarely need to install software. How is this even a debate?! Updating for KDE users is broken. It is a key, basic functionality. It should be of a high priority.
Works for me and my family – so I guess we are smarter than your average user. ;-)
Yes, I am sure they are. Plus, they're your family and you are there to help them at all times.
Ordinary users do not use the command line. If I told them they had to learn to do so in order to get updates they would interpret this as an *insult*, and rightly so.
Funny definition of an insult.
No, it is not. The reason this is an insult is because you are saying to them, "Sorry, you can sort it out yourself. I don't really care enough to show you an easier way to do this."
Ordinary users should not be playing around in YaST, because it is too easy for them to break other things accidentally.
You mean they accidentally click on "printer" and remove their printer although they aimed for "update" or confuse "update" with "partition manager"?
Yes. This happens. Frequently. I have been called out to plug in a mouse before, and have also had one user ask me what "green" meant when I asked her to plug the speakers into the "green hole" on the back of her computer.
This is why the updater applet exists - it is perfect for ordinary desktop users. It should appear periodically, and let them know that updates are available. They will click on it and provide their password in order to update, but that is the *most* you can expect of them.
Their password? Don't you need root access by default for any package management?
SuSE is configured by default to have users put in their password rather than a separate root password for superuser activities such as updating.
What happens if you start updating again after accepting the EULA?
You can't. Once you accept the EULA, Apper currently DOES NOT actually install updates. It ends up in an infinite loop. You accept the EULA, Apper behaves as if it has installed the updates, then it checks for updates, and nothing has been installed. So you do the same again and around and around we go.
BTW: Users with an admin should not have to update anything themselves. Users without should know what they are doing.
If users without an admin knew what they were doing, we wouldn't have problems with viruses and malware masquerading as "security" software on Windows, and other such problems. At least on Linux they are protected from their own mistakes for the most part, but you still cannot expect them to behave rationally. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 10. Dezember 2011, 21:23:38 schrieb Malvern Star:
Yes. This happens. Frequently. I have been called out to plug in a mouse before, and have also had one user ask me what "green" meant when I asked her to plug the speakers into the "green hole" on the back of her computer.
Those users are no "use" doing an update, see below.
Their password? Don't you need root access by default for any package management?
SuSE is configured by default to have users put in their password rather than a separate root password for superuser activities such as updating.
Are you sure this is not because by default the "first" user's password is used as root password since most people are their own admin?
What happens if you start updating again after accepting the EULA?
You can't. Once you accept the EULA, Apper currently DOES NOT actually install updates. It ends up in an infinite loop. You accept the EULA, Apper behaves as if it has installed the updates, then it checks for updates, and nothing has been installed. So you do the same again and around and around we go.
Works for me on the second try, i.e. after accepting the EULA starting the update again.
BTW: Users with an admin should not have to update anything themselves. Users without should know what they are doing.
If users without an admin knew what they were doing, we wouldn't have problems with viruses and malware masquerading as "security" software on Windows, and other such problems. At least on Linux they are protected from their own mistakes for the most part, but you still cannot expect them to behave rationally.
Sorry, but to me your argumentation does not make sense – or to be more precise, it is not consistent. Either your users have no clue or they do. If they have no clue they should not install updates. If they do, there is no issue. If you allow users without clue to update, they will just install whatever update is shown to them. This is no different than having a cron job installing updates automatically. You can just put a script on their computer that accepts all EULAs and does the updating. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister said the following on 12/10/2011 07:54 AM:
Sorry, but to me your argumentation does not make sense – or to be more precise, it is not consistent. Either your users have no clue or they do. If they have no clue they should not install updates. If they do, there is no issue.
If you allow users without clue to update, they will just install whatever update is shown to them. This is no different than having a cron job installing updates automatically. You can just put a script on their computer that accepts all EULAs and does the updating.
+1 And I suspect that even many "smart" users and sysadmins just apply the issued updates; after all they are PGP-signed and come from the opensuse servers, so they must be right, right? Heck, I recall starting at one site and seeing a strange guy at the console of the roomful of AIX servers. He had a visitors badge and refused to answer when I asked what he was doing. I called security and the IT manager. It turned out he was from the OEM vendor and been coming in every month to apply patches/upgrades from a CD. It was in the support contract, but the IT department were unaware that he was simply applying the upgrades without telling anyone or reporting that the upgrades had been done, and there was no "change management" or "impact analysis". Of course this incident brought about changes to the process! But really, what could they do? Can you say, no we don't want upgrades! Are you in a position to examine the impact of making or not making each and every update? I realise some large corporations are, but are you, Malvern, in that position with respect to openSuse? Do you have a test-bench facility to verify the impact of every change before allowing the update? Because if you don't, and if you, like I suspect better than 90% of openSuse users, just accept and apply the updates, then there is no reason NOT to have them done automatically by CRON. In the corporate environments I've worked and been supplied with a Windows workstation or laptop and all the 'roving share' stuff, the login/start-up scripts often delay the start-up while they download the latest upgrades. The users have no control over this. By the time the GUI comes up and they can start work the updates have been applied. If you choose to treat your users dumb, not give them fine control over their machine configuration, then applying the upgrades "behind the scenes" with CRON or ACRON invoking zypper makes more sense than complaining about Apper/KPackageKit. But as I keep saying, if you really want problems, then yes, upgrade them to 12.1. -- An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. - Friedrich Engels -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Malvern Star said the following on 12/10/2011 07:23 AM:
Funny definition of an insult. No, it is not. The reason this is an insult is because you are saying to them, "Sorry, you can sort it out yourself. I don't really care enough to show you an easier way to do this."
No, you're saying: "There are other ways to do this but I'm unwilling to show you them because I don't think you're intelligent enough to be able to comprehend how to use them." -- Most people are not really free. They are confined by the niche in the world that they carve out for themselves. They limit themselves to fewer possibilities by the narrowness of their vision. --V. S. Naipaul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister said the following on 12/10/2011 04:25 AM:
Am Samstag, 10. Dezember 2011, 12:36:08 schrieb Malvern Star:
That's precisely the point - my *average* users need to be able to install updates. They rarely need to install software. How is this even a debate?! Updating for KDE users is broken. It is a key, basic functionality. It should be of a high priority.
Works for me and my family – so I guess we are smarter than your average user. ;-)
Right. We're smart enough to be here. The "average user" is still using Windows.
Ordinary users do not use the command line. If I told them they had to learn to do so in order to get updates they would interpret this as an *insult*, and rightly so.
Funny definition of an insult.
+1 I would have thought telling users that they are too stupid to learn something new would be insulting them, but what do I know ... I only have to put up with users that demand more capabilities and control over their systems ...
Ordinary users should not be playing around in YaST, because it is too easy for them to break other things accidentally.
You mean they accidentally click on "printer" and remove their printer although they aimed for "update" or confuse "update" with "partition manager"?
Just like trained sysadmins do occasionally. Like playing "global thermonuclear war" 'cos they feel bored ...
BTW: Users with an admin should not have to update anything themselves. Users without should know what they are doing.
Indeed. It sounds like he's training users to believe that they can do without Sysadmins and hence put sysadmins out of work. -- I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody -- Bill Cosby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Malvern Star said the following on 12/09/2011 10:36 PM:
Ordinary users do not use the command line. If I told them they had to learn to do so in order to get updates they would interpret this as an *insult*, and rightly so.
Ordinary users should not be playing around in YaST, because it is too easy for them to break other things accidentally.
I've mentioned a number of times, and rather have been other questions here in the last month that approach this issue as well, but why is it so hard to write a short script and then create a desktop item to run it? You don't need the whole of the menu of YAST. You can hand the users a constrained subset of YAST which they can run and can't get out of. I often type "yast2 sw_single" on the command line to just get the installer and nothing else appears. I'm sure there is a option for updates rather than install - go check the docs. And there are plenty of tools to permit script driven GUI-fication. Worst case its a bit of Tcl - or Tk/Perl. KpackageKit is also not "constrained". Users can add/delete software as well as so updates. So I don't see your problem. And I'll reiterate my other points about the lemming-like rush to move to 12.1. If you've got problems where you are then moving to 12.1 will just add more and more problems. What you're saying that you're trying to do makes no sense. -- "Security can be viewed like a construction scenario - build part of a road, and even if and even if you don't complete it, you still have something to drive on; build part of a bridge and you have nothing! Security is like the last." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Malvern Star said the following on 12/08/2011 11:00 AM:
Yast is a GUI that can run under KDE, Gnome, LXDE or even in terminal mode.
This is not the issue. My issue relates to package management within KDE, without starting YaST, as the majority of my users are generally competent with computers, but essentially "non-technical". They are basically, "average users".
There's a difference between treating end users as "dumb and inexperienced" and "stupid and incompetent". How a CLI (possibly via wrapper) that does sudo zypper up requires more technical know-how than using Packagekit, I really don't understand. I'm biased. I like using zypper; I like using "zypper -v ..." and watching the details roll by. I don't pretend to understand it, but its more reassuring than watching a GUI progress bar roll back and forth. I suppose you could use pkcon/pkmon ... but still
No. Users should be able to update. End of story.
I have dozens of users I've been holding off updating,
Do you mean updating or upgrading?
and I can't start shipping
That sound more like "installing".
Let me spell it out: I have users on 11.3. They need to be moved to 12.1. I cannot do this until they are able to install updates from within their desktop environment (and also they need to be able to eject optical discs, but that is a separate bug).
I'm massively puzzled. I continued to be baffled by the need to upgrade to an unstable 12.1 when there is a stable 11.4 sitting there. I continue to be baffled by the need to "install updates from within their desktop environment" but not use Zypper or YAST from their desktop environment. After all, PackageKit, Zypper and YAST all use the zypper libraries as their back ends, all use the same configuration database in /etc ...
until this problem is fixed! Please, do continue to report issues you encounter, because the more people are prepared to report, perhaps the issue will receive proper attention.
Have you tried 11.4? If not why not?
11.4 also cannot install updates from within KDE due to an infinite loop when the user attempts to install updates which require EULA acceptance.
I've been using 11.4 for a couple of years and use KPackageKit exclusively on my Fedora box (yum sucks compared to Zypper! Nothing as nice as YAST there) and have hit the upgrade of Java, which requires accepting the EULA, quite a number of times on both types of machines. I've never seen your problem under 11.4 or Fedora-15. I'm not denying its existence with 12.1 since I haven't tried 12.1 and don't plan to. I don't see why using zypper/yeast is a problem. I don't see why you can't work around this hurdle by doing ssh in to run zypper to bring up their baseline. I don't see why you can't issue a "instruction sheet" that has them start a Konsole and do the "zypper up". I don't see why you can't supply them with a script package and say "run this". As I say, ignorant doesn't mean incompetent. -- An NSA-employed acquaintance, when asked whether the government can crack DES traffic, quipped that real systems are so insecure that they never need to bother. Unfortunately, there are no easy recipes for making a system secure, no substitute for careful design and critical, ongoing scrutiny. -- Matt Blaze in AC2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Anton Aylward -
Carl Fletcher -
Malvern Star -
Martin Schlander -
Olav P. -
Roger Luedecke -
Sven Burmeister -
Will Stephenson