[opensuse-gnome] Timezone and printer settings too restrictive by default
Hi there, Linus vocally complained about this today at https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 and I verified that running GNOME on openSUSE 12.1, all updates applied, I do need to provide the root password to change the timezone or add a printer. That is a major usability issue for personas "Daniela" and "significant other", which means it has real life impact on both Linus and myself. :-) Surprisingly enough, I did not find existing Bugzilla entries, but perhaps those were (incorrectly) closed earlier and I missed them therefore? In any case, I filed https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749451 Adding a new printer via system-config-printer requires root password https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749453 Changing the timezone via world clock requires root password Any chance we can get these two resolved quickly? Thanks! Gerald PS: If I may ask for one favor, let's stay focused on meeting our users' needs rather than flailing on flames (some aspects of which were just inappropriate). -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> || SUSE || Director Product Management -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 23:53 +0100, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi there,
Linus vocally complained about this today at https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 and I verified that running GNOME on openSUSE 12.1, all updates applied, I do need to provide the root password to change the timezone or add a printer.
That is a major usability issue for personas "Daniela" and "significant other", which means it has real life impact on both Linus and myself. :-)
Surprisingly enough, I did not find existing Bugzilla entries, but perhaps those were (incorrectly) closed earlier and I missed them therefore?
In any case, I filed
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749451 Adding a new printer via system-config-printer requires root password
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749453 Changing the timezone via world clock requires root password
Any chance we can get these two resolved quickly?
Thanks! Gerald
I have mixed feelings about it. For the standard non-administrated user, yes these should be easier to do. For the traveler, it should be easy to do, i.e. I shouldn't have to provide system credentials in order to connect to a wifi network at Starbucks nor to change my timezone when traveling. And the time issue isn't just about timezones, but also about changing time itself and/or syncing up to NTP. And from an administrated-machine standpoint, there may be reasons why we don't want our users to fiddle with the clock itself. (e.g. auditing user's behavior on a machine by looking at timestamps.) As for printers... I see the issue being installation of drivers. If we're setting up a printer which has a driver already installed on the machine, then no, password should not be required like that. But if setting up the printer means downloading the driver... then it should be treated the same way as any other software installation which requires system authentication. But in general, the issue seems to be one extreme or the other, I agree. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Project -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
And the time issue isn't just about timezones, but also about changing time itself and/or syncing up to NTP. And from an administrated-machine standpoint, there may be reasons why we don't want our users to fiddle with the clock itself.
Oh, I get the part about the clock. However, I am not suggesting the user shall change time or date, I am focusing on timezone here. If this requires the same set of privileges, the security design may be in need to some love and care. I'm also fine having a more liberal default when the underlying device is detected to be portable (notebook, tablet,...). Just treating Daniela's or "significant other"'s notebook like one of those multi-user UNIX servers in the old days does not make sense. Those could not be hauled around nearly as easy to begin with. :-)
As for printers... I see the issue being installation of drivers. If we're setting up a printer which has a driver already installed on the machine, then no, password should not be required like that.
Great, we agree on that.
But if setting up the printer means downloading the driver... then it should be treated the same way as any other software installation which requires system authentication.
And I can agree on that. Installation of new software, not yet on the systems or authorized somehow (for example, Linus could have put all acceptable drivers somewhere on the machine for the system to pick up in case of need) is a different beast. Let's focus on the simple cases for now: Timezone (not clock) and printers (no new drivers). Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> || SUSE || Director Product Management -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-29 00:36, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Oh, I get the part about the clock. However, I am not suggesting the user shall change time or date, I am focusing on timezone here. If this requires the same set of privileges, the security design may be in need to some love and care.
I don't see what problem there could be about changing one's timezone. In the CLI you can do that as user, because you are not changing the system clock. It is just your own environment variables, you can change any. If gnome doesn't allow it, then it is indeed a bug. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9NgSMACgkQIvFNjefEBxpOGQCgz6h6UypruQd6XbFoAqkRIR7M i+sAnjguDH10Y6juJfX1O+lI1Qst5WC0 =BYO1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2012-02-29 at 02:36 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2012-02-29 00:36, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Oh, I get the part about the clock. However, I am not suggesting the user shall change time or date, I am focusing on timezone here. If this requires the same set of privileges, the security design may be in need to some love and care.
I don't see what problem there could be about changing one's timezone. In the CLI you can do that as user, because you are not changing the system clock. It is just your own environment variables, you can change any.
If gnome doesn't allow it, then it is indeed a bug.
In the UI, the process is as follows: 1. Click on the clock in the top bar 2. Click on "Date and Time Settings". This will open up the same module that is found in System Settings > System > Date and Time. 3. Options for changing timezone, date, time are greyed out. Option for showing 24-hour or 12-hour clock is not greyed out. 4. Click the Unlock button and enter your system administrator password. 5. Now you may make your changes. Step 4 is the contention here. If this can be divided so that timezone can be user-changed and time/date requires password as Gerald was saying, that would make good sense, IMO. And I join in, as a user, with Gerald in supporting the request to adjust these user experiences. I should also point out that in the original G+ post by Linus, he ssys he had isues with requiring admin access to connect to a wifi network and that it was subsequently resolved at some point. I'm on 12.1 and I'm still getting those admin password requests when attempting to connect to a new wifi network. I'm unsure if this really was resolved anywhere since its the same experience for me as all along. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-29 03:11, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
On Wed, 2012-02-29 at 02:36 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2012-02-29 00:36, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Step 4 is the contention here. If this can be divided so that timezone can be user-changed and time/date requires password as Gerald was saying, that would make good sense, IMO.
It should, timezone is a user adjustable thing in the CLI. And changing it doesn't change system records.
I should also point out that in the original G+ post by Linus, he ssys he had isues with requiring admin access to connect to a wifi network and that it was subsequently resolved at some point. I'm on 12.1 and I'm still getting those admin password requests when attempting to connect to a new wifi network. I'm unsure if this really was resolved anywhere since its the same experience for me as all along.
Maybe it was solved in the bugzilla he made, and there is a patch you can install, but has not made the update repo for generic usage. However, printer configuration, as that is a hardware thing, is traditionally a task for the administrator, but perhaps something could be devised that allowed the user to do it if the administrator allows. However, if a driver has to be installed, then it is "no way". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9NjBUACgkQIvFNjefEBxrFAQCeLoIdDMp4BDN9agJI88GoyEXw AlgAn1VGsUXKruhAoRh094H48YfcKuLu =Mcdu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2012-02-29 at 03:23 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However, printer configuration, as that is a hardware thing, is traditionally a task for the administrator, but perhaps something could be devised that allowed the user to do it if the administrator allows. However, if a driver has to be installed, then it is "no way".
With the exception of requiring actual driver installations, I don't agree with even needing an administrator allowance. I think that tradition needs to go out the door in today's more modern mobility world. Last thing I need if I'm on the road and need to hook up to a printer for an important document is to call my IT admin guy and say Hey, can you allow my machine to connect to this printer?? Of course, there is an exception to every rule. :-) We may not want users to connect to certain network printers. I certainly recall one of my clients back when I was in consulting, having to put in restrictions so students would not send prank printouts to the principal's printer. :-) But in the case of default shipment, I would rather see us be a bit more liberal for printer setups and let the administrator choose a more paranoid lock-down method by choice rather than by default. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-29 03:36, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
On Wed, 2012-02-29 at 03:23 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However, printer configuration, as that is a hardware thing, is traditionally a task for the administrator, but perhaps something could be devised that allowed the user to do it if the administrator allows. However, if a driver has to be installed, then it is "no way".
With the exception of requiring actual driver installations, I don't agree with even needing an administrator allowance. I think that tradition needs to go out the door in today's more modern mobility world. Last thing I need if I'm on the road and need to hook up to a printer for an important document is to call my IT admin guy and say Hey, can you allow my machine to connect to this printer??
I think the administrator must choose whether to delegate that or not. On some fixed installations root may want to keep control, on other installations he may not want to bother. So we must make the choice available. But I don't know if this is possible.
Of course, there is an exception to every rule. :-) We may not want users to connect to certain network printers. I certainly recall one of my clients back when I was in consulting, having to put in restrictions so students would not send prank printouts to the principal's printer. :-)
X'-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9N8NQACgkQIvFNjefEBxrzUgCeKrvmxv+Fcy5Vfz/wrX3+eUwZ G+8AoLcz7c80lF+UVsKWKESQTfPb+mkt =++J5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Feb 29 00:36 Gerald Pfeifer wrote (excerpt):
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
As for printers... I see the issue being installation of drivers. If we're setting up a printer which has a driver already installed on the machine, then no, password should not be required like that.
Great, we agree on that.
Of course it is not as easy as you think. Your current point of view "printer setup on my own machine" does not apply in any case. In corporate environments where an admin maintains the workstations it is usually not wanted that users can change how workstations print because this can cause printing security issues in the whole network, see "print job phishing" at http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:CUPS_and_SANE_Firewall_settings
But if setting up the printer means downloading the driver... then it should be treated the same way as any other software installation which requires system authentication.
And I can agree on that. Installation of new software, not yet on the systems or authorized somehow (for example, Linus could have put all acceptable drivers somewhere on the machine for the system to pick up in case of need) is a different beast.
For you current use case "printer setup on my own machine" why shold the user not also install a driver on his own machine? More and more printers require a driver from the manufacturer. In particular low-level printers which are of major interest for the use case "printer setup on my own machine". Of course long ago I had aready filed a matching FATE request https://features.opensuse.org/307745 but nobody - in particular nobody of the management - cares. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:30:38 Johannes Meixner wrote:
Hello,
On Feb 29 00:36 Gerald Pfeifer wrote (excerpt):
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
As for printers... I see the issue being installation of drivers. If we're setting up a printer which has a driver already installed on the machine, then no, password should not be required like that.
Great, we agree on that.
Of course it is not as easy as you think.
Your current point of view "printer setup on my own machine" does not apply in any case.
In corporate environments where an admin maintains the workstations it is usually not wanted that users can change how workstations print because this can cause printing security issues in the whole network, see "print job phishing" at http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:CUPS_and_SANE_Firewall_settings
openSUSE is not corporate environment but individual desktops, so let's use sane defaults there. If the defaults for corporate environments need to be different, then SLES and SLED can use different defaults - but that doesn't mean openSUSE should... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012, Johannes Meixner wrote:
In corporate environments where an admin maintains the workstations it is usually not wanted that users can change how workstations print because this can cause printing security issues in the whole network, see "print job phishing"
In corporate environments where an admin maintains the workstations, said admins can easily increase whatever security levels she desires to increase. A vanilla openSUSE installation is not exactly most common in such environments. It's a lot more common, as we see every day, in those cases Linus and me are concerned about. (In fact, a couple of SUSE employees contacted me in the last 24 hours indicating "Yes, I do have the root password, but this really has annoyed me all the time.")
Of course long ago I had aready filed a matching FATE request https://features.opensuse.org/307745 but nobody - in particular nobody of the management - cares.
I am sorry your request did not get picked up for openSUSE. As far as all SUSE products go, indeed I am (Mr. Product) Management. openSUSE is not a SUSE product, though, and there I am just a lowly contributor like everyone else. :-) With a bit of influence, admittedly, in suggesting what SUSE engineering teams contribute to openSUSE, but not in the sense of classic (product) management. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> || SUSE || Director Product Management -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On 2/29/2012 at 04:23 AM, in message <alpine.LNX.2.00.1202282308210.23429@gerinyyl.fvgr>, Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote: Hi there,
Linus vocally complained about this today at https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 and I verified that running GNOME on openSUSE 12.1, all updates applied, I do need to provide the root password to change the timezone or add a printer.
That is a major usability issue for personas "Daniela" and "significant other", which means it has real life impact on both Linus and myself. :-)
Surprisingly enough, I did not find existing Bugzilla entries, but perhaps those were (incorrectly) closed earlier and I missed them therefore?
In any case, I filed
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749451 Adding a new printer via system-config-printer requires root password
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749453 Changing the timezone via world clock requires root password
Any chance we can get these two resolved quickly?
Thanks! Gerald
PS: If I may ask for one favor, let's stay focused on meeting our users' needs rather than flailing on flames (some aspects of which were just inappropriate).
Disclaimer: Have not used openSUSE for the past two months (due to dayjob requirements) so my data may be obsolete/wrong (not verified) When the time is stored in UTC in the system (yast), we can change the timezone as a non-root user, otherwise we can't (or that is how I remember it). Windows does not store time in UTC and so in multi-boot machines, changing timezone is not possible, as a normal user. This is how I remember this. But I may be wrong and could not verify now. Just check once if time is stored in UTC in yast and then try to see if you can change the timezone. Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 22:38 -0700, Sankar P wrote:
Disclaimer: Have not used openSUSE for the past two months (due to dayjob requirements) so my data may be obsolete/wrong (not verified)
When the time is stored in UTC in the system (yast), we can change the timezone as a non-root user, otherwise we can't (or that is how I remember it). Windows does not store time in UTC and so in multi-boot machines, changing timezone is not possible, as a normal user.
This is how I remember this. But I may be wrong and could not verify now. Just check once if time is stored in UTC in yast and then try to see if you can change the timezone.
Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com
Attempting to follow your steps: 1. Click on System Settings 2. Click on YaST icon 3. Administrator password dialog pops up. Guess that didn't work. :-) Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-29 06:38, Sankar P wrote:
This is how I remember this. But I may be wrong and could not verify now. Just check once if time is stored in UTC in yast and then try to see if you can change the timezone.
You don't need YaST to change your timezone. It is an environment variable. What you can not change is the system timezone, affecting all users. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9N8XsACgkQIvFNjefEBxr1DwCgvUteT+G5/MlJPSSVW0rhK5yB QuQAoKKvBPk5n+/wbTnkmWTHaqkwglut =ayKy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
Le mardi 28 février 2012, à 23:53 +0100, Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
Hi there,
Linus vocally complained about this today at https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 and I verified that running GNOME on openSUSE 12.1, all updates applied, I do need to provide the root password to change the timezone or add a printer.
That is a major usability issue for personas "Daniela" and "significant other", which means it has real life impact on both Linus and myself. :-)
Surprisingly enough, I did not find existing Bugzilla entries, but perhaps those were (incorrectly) closed earlier and I missed them therefore?
In any case, I filed
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749451 Adding a new printer via system-config-printer requires root password
This is because of the default polkit policies in openSUSE: the org.opensuse.cupspkhelper.mechanism.* actions require the root password. Note that I wrote cups-pk-helper in order to enable adding a printer without root password...
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749453 Changing the timezone via world clock requires root password
This one is actually GNOME's fault: the new design of GNOME means that when you can change the timezone, you can also change the time. And we don't want to allow the latter without root password. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
Le mercredi 29 février 2012, à 09:15 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
Le mardi 28 février 2012, à 23:53 +0100, Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749453 Changing the timezone via world clock requires root password
This one is actually GNOME's fault: the new design of GNOME means that when you can change the timezone, you can also change the time. And we don't want to allow the latter without root password.
Forgot to put the upstream bug: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646185 Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Feb 28 23:53 Gerald Pfeifer wrote (excerpt):
Linus vocally complained about this today at https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5
His tone is not acceptable so that I ignore what he spits out.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749451 Adding a new printer via system-config-printer requires root password
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749453 Changing the timezone via world clock requires root password
Any chance we can get these two resolved quickly?
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749451 is no bug because it works as intended. To change the intention how something works, bug reports are not appropriate. In such cases please file a FATE request. And then you manager, please do manage it to get it actually done and not lost again in endless futile duscussions as it happened all the time in the past with exactly the same issue. I suggest to file a FATE request to have two kind of security defaults out of the box: - The "traditional" one e.g. for corporate environments where ony a dedicated admin can change system settings. (It is questionable if e.g. the timezone is a system setting or only a user-level preference.) - Another one for "single user systems" where one same person who installs the system is also its user. I would be against a security default where any person who get access to the system can change anything (i.e. where anybody could hijack an unattended computer). Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-29 10:14, Johannes Meixner wrote:
(It is questionable if e.g. the timezone is a system setting or only a user-level preference.)
It is both. You can change both settings separately, and each user can have his own different timezone. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9N8lwACgkQIvFNjefEBxoYXwCfZB35mFVNuWmOrMbya17VFUJA BZcAn2QHNjJHBfM0vit0O7FfVT5IJ2yG =kC4W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+owner@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Bryen M Yunashko -
Carlos E. R. -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Johannes Meixner -
Sankar P -
Vincent Untz