[opensuse-gnome] Removing a few apps from the default install

Vincent Untz

22 Sep 2010 22 Sep '10

14:11

Hi, I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome! - multisync-gui: the UI is just horrible. I can't belive we ship a tool like this by default. - deskbar-applet: we ship gnome-do by default, so no real need to ship deskbar too. - gftp: most people don't need to use ftp. Then a good part of people who need to use ftp are happy with nautilus. I'd argue that it's not really needed. - ekiga: the people who use SIP will know about it and will install it. The other people (majority) just don't care. Note that it's quite big on the livecd (since libpt and opal are big). (I'm not 100% sure on this one) - xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default. (I'm not 100% sure on this one) Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

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Frederic Crozat

22 Sep 22 Sep

14:19

Le mercredi 22 septembre 2010 à 16:11 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :

...

Hi,

I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome!

- multisync-gui: the UI is just horrible. I can't belive we ship a tool like this by default.

ok for me

...

- deskbar-applet: we ship gnome-do by default, so no real need to ship deskbar too.

ok for me

...

- gftp: most people don't need to use ftp. Then a good part of people who need to use ftp are happy with nautilus. I'd argue that it's not really needed.

ok for me

...

- ekiga: the people who use SIP will know about it and will install it. The other people (majority) just don't care. Note that it's quite big on the livecd (since libpt and opal are big). (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

I'd say install telepathy-sofiasip to have SIP calls working in Empathy to replace Ekiga.

...

- xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default. (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

I haven't tested irc support in empathy 2.32.0 yet... Let's hope it is able to replace xchat. -- Frederic Crozat Novell -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Luis Medinas

14:25

Qua, 2010-09-22 às 16:11 +0200, Vincent Untz escreveu:

...

Hi,

I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome!

- multisync-gui: the UI is just horrible. I can't belive we ship a tool like this by default.

Please remove...

...

- deskbar-applet: we ship gnome-do by default, so no real need to ship deskbar too.

Yes gnome-do should replace deskbar-applet.

...

- gftp: most people don't need to use ftp. Then a good part of people who need to use ftp are happy with nautilus. I'd argue that it's not really needed.

I'm not sure if we should remove gftp, well i know it's a bit outdated and not everyone needs a ftp client but if it isn't installed some people (specially new users) won't know that it exists. Same for other applications.

...

- ekiga: the people who use SIP will know about it and will install it. The other people (majority) just don't care. Note that it's quite big on the livecd (since libpt and opal are big). (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

Ekiga and opal.

...

- xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default. (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

Empathy IRC isn't a full irc client i mean it doesn't have the same functionality that xchat provides. I think we should replace xchat by xchat-gnome. I think we should bring this subject to the meeting and discuss opinions/alternatives. We don't install gnome-disk-utility, liferea (RSS feed reader) or a video editor (pitivi) by default and i think we should really think about it. Cheers Luis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat

14:35

Le mercredi 22 septembre 2010 à 15:25 +0100, Luis Medinas a écrit :

...

Qua, 2010-09-22 às 16:11 +0200, Vincent Untz escreveu:

...

...
- xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default. (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

Empathy IRC isn't a full irc client i mean it doesn't have the same functionality that xchat provides. I think we should replace xchat by xchat-gnome.

I agree xchat-gnome is better than xchat, but if Empathy irc is ok, let's use it.

...

I think we should bring this subject to the meeting and discuss opinions/alternatives. We don't install gnome-disk-utility, liferea (RSS feed reader) or a video editor (pitivi) by default and i think we should really think about it.

Ok for gdu. I don't think installing liferea is worth its disk space (it is installed by default when using DVD btw). Pitivi might be useful -- Frederic Crozat Novell -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

15:19

On Wednesday 22 September 2010 16:11:03 Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Hi,

I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome!

Just some extra ideas: You might also want to add some of these as suggested packages in the patterns so that they are not installed by default but if a user reviews the list of GNOME packages, she see these. You could also have an extra pattern GNOME-Extra with all the goodies in it that some people might like... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

15:28

On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 16:11 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome! - multisync-gui: the UI is just horrible. I can't belive we ship a tool - deskbar-applet: we ship gnome-do by default, so no real need to ship - gftp: most people don't need to use ftp. Then a good part of people - ekiga

I agree with all of the above.

...

- xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default. (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

I'd disagree, but not vehemently. xchat is pretty small and most people I talk to still diss' empathy [and I'm not yet an empathy fan either]. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Sankar P

15:30

...

...
...
On 9/22/2010 at 07:41 PM, in message <20100922141103.GY13247@vuntz.net>, Vincent Untz wrote: Hi,

I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome!

- multisync-gui: the UI is just horrible. I can't belive we ship a tool like this by default.

- deskbar-applet: we ship gnome-do by default, so no real need to ship deskbar too.

- gftp: most people don't need to use ftp. Then a good part of people who need to use ftp are happy with nautilus. I'd argue that it's not really needed.

- ekiga: the people who use SIP will know about it and will install it. The other people (majority) just don't care. Note that it's quite big on the livecd (since libpt and opal are big). (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

+1 for all of the above.

...

- xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default. (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

I personally would recommend to continue installing xchat. I know of a lot of people who like xchat for its simplicity and have years of IRC logs, even though there are alternatives like pidgin/empathy. Sankar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

15:37

On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 09:30 -0600, Sankar P wrote:
> >>> On 9/22/2010 at 07:41 PM, in message <20100922141103.GY13247@vuntz.net>,
> Vincent Untz  wrote: 
> >  - xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default.
> >    (I'm not 100% sure on this one)
> I personally would recommend to continue installing xchat. I know of a
> lot of people who like xchat for its simplicity and have years of IRC
> logs, even though there are alternatives like pidgin/empathy. 

And if those alternatives actually worked.  Pidgin supports HTTP proxy
servers, empathy not at all [or only via GNOME's lextremely lame proxy
server support - why can none of this software auto-detect like
browser's have been able to do since Netscape 4?  Sorry, major
irritant.]  They also don't support IRC over HTTP, which xchat does and
is widely used.  Also, IMO, the interface choice

user
comment
user
comment

 used in empathy is also really bad for multi-party conversations.

user: comment
user: comment

is *far and away* more readable.

-- 
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Vincent Untz

15:50

Le mercredi 22 septembre 2010, à 17:19 +0200, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...

On Wednesday 22 September 2010 16:11:03 Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Hi,

I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome!

Just some extra ideas:

You might also want to add some of these as suggested packages in the patterns so that they are not installed by default but if a user reviews the list of GNOME packages, she see these.

Yep. I'm deep in patterns right now. I'm not changing their contents, but reorganizing them for now. Next step will be to add/remove stuff :-)

...

You could also have an extra pattern GNOME-Extra with all the goodies in it that some people might like...

That can make sense, indeed. Although I guess I'd prefer to do that at the app level, rather than at the package level. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Sankar P

15:51

>>> On 9/22/2010 at 09:07 PM, in message
<1285169828.11929.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>, Adam Tauno Williams
 wrote: 
> On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 09:30 -0600, Sankar P wrote:
> > >>> On 9/22/2010 at 07:41 PM, in message <20100922141103.GY13247@vuntz.net>,
> > Vincent Untz  wrote: 
> > >  - xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default.
> > >    (I'm not 100% sure on this one)
> > I personally would recommend to continue installing xchat. I know of a
> > lot of people who like xchat for its simplicity and have years of IRC
> > logs, even though there are alternatives like pidgin/empathy. 
> 
> And if those alternatives actually worked.  Pidgin supports HTTP proxy
> servers, empathy not at all [or only via GNOME's lextremely lame proxy
> server support - why can none of this software auto-detect like
> browser's have been able to do since Netscape 4?  Sorry, major
> irritant.]  They also don't support IRC over HTTP, which xchat does and
> is widely used.  Also, IMO, the interface choice
>

Instead of every application having to write GUI (and that lacks usability/translation/etc.)  it is a far better approach to have one place to configure network GNOME wide. IIRC, we had some such ugly app-specific network configure patch for network configure of Evo and it really wasnt much appreciated. And then we made a "Use GNOME settings" option to this custom GUI (or some such). I dont know if it is still in the same state.  The point I am trying to make is, individual apps. trying to guess network is sub-optimal and they should rely on the base system. 

OTOH,  If the GNOME wide proxy configuration does not have auto-detection like browsers, please file a bug (I believe there should one already in bugzilla.gnome.org)

IRC over http is something I didnt know so far and I believe is enough to convince our core-team to retain xchat ;-) 

> user
> comment
> user
> comment
> 
>  used in empathy is also really bad for multi-party conversations.
> 
> user: comment
> user: comment
> 
> is *far and away* more readable.
> 

I personally have not used anything except xchat. Based on what you say, "ugh, pidgin is ugly".  I wonder why they did so, as pidgin for IM has the sane "User: Message" format. 

Sankar
http://psankar.blogspot.com 

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Dominique Leuenberger

16:18

Hi, On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 16:11 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

- gftp: most people don't need to use ftp. Then a good part of people who need to use ftp are happy with nautilus. I'd argue that it's not really needed.

I agree we can take it out of the default install, but should certainly make sure it stays around... it is a great ftp client. But as you pointed out: most are happy with nautilus

...

- ekiga: the people who use SIP will know about it and will install it. The other people (majority) just don't care. Note that it's quite big on the livecd (since libpt and opal are big). (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

I don't dare judging on it. I don't use it. and when I tried back in times I did not have much luck with it. One of those nice apps only causing troubles with NAT... NAT is bad for this.

...

- xchat: we ship empathy with irc support by default. (I'm not 100% sure on this one)

Not sure neither. XChat certainly does feel better as IRC client than Empathy. But it's purely by 'feeling'. Empathy seems able to do the thing it needs, and I tried it a little. But then: most of the time I resort back to irssi rather quick anyhow. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat

23 Sep 23 Sep

10:07

Le mercredi 22 septembre 2010 à 16:35 +0200, Frederic Crozat a écrit :

...

Le mercredi 22 septembre 2010 à 15:25 +0100, Luis Medinas a écrit :

...
Qua, 2010-09-22 às 16:11 +0200, Vincent Untz escreveu:

I almost forgot : we should install gnome-color-manager by default too.. -- Frederic Crozat Novell -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

1 Oct 1 Oct

10:30

Le mercredi 22 septembre 2010, à 16:11 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :

...

Hi,

I was looking at the default install of GNOME in Milestone 1, and came up with a list of things that, I think, we should not install by default. Comments welcome!

I've removed multisync-gui, deskbar-applet, gftp and ekiga after the discussion here. I didn't touch xchat yet -- we can discuss this during a meeting. I added the following packages: evolution-webcal, gnome-disk-utility, hamster-applet, telepathy-idle (irc in empathy) and telepathy-sofiasip (sip in empathy). For the curious, the commit can be double-checked at http://gitorious.org/opensuse/patterns/commit/cc3d49336959d1408d5993bdf9ab39... I'll check in a few days the size of the iso we get with this, and based on that, we'll possibly be able to add more packages (gnome-color-manager, seahorse-plugins -- or at least the gpg agent part when it'll get split -- and rygel are in my list at the moment). Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

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Adam Tauno Williams
Andreas Jaeger
Dominique Leuenberger
Frederic Crozat
Luis Medinas
Sankar P
Vincent Untz