I think the GNOME patterns need to be rebuilt. Primarily : - more than once I heard users complain that after installation the desktop is overloaded with games and third-party applications - when you try to remove unnecessary applications by deleting patterns, there is some confusion with them. So the GNOME patterns is also a Wayland patterns, e.g. What I suggest: - make the following patterns: * base GNOME with everything you need to run the environment itself without GNOME Core, but with a browser (for Internet access), an update viewer and package source code (which, as I understand it, is mandatory in openSUSE) * GNOME Core - respectively, all applications from the GNOME core, taken from here: https://apps.gnome.org/en/, except for Logs (because there is YaST), Photo (because there is eog), Web browser (because there is Firefox) and Video (VLC can be supplied instead). That's all and the GNOME base will be as a GNOME system role. * leave the rest as is, fixing them if the patterns above catch applications from the rest - remove the Wayland patterns by spliting it with the GNOME Base (or leave as is, but add it to Basic GNOME and rename it to gnome_wayland pattern) I think to reduce the GNOME base just as much, because GNOME Core can change its composition (except for settings and the file manager, their changes are quite rare so far) and a separate package for such changes will be easier to maintain in the future.
On Tue, 2022-10-04 at 15:33 +0000, Milachew wrote:
I think the GNOME patterns need to be rebuilt.
Primarily : - more than once I heard users complain that after installation the desktop is overloaded with games and third-party applications - when you try to remove unnecessary applications by deleting patterns, there is some confusion with them. So the GNOME patterns is also a Wayland patterns, e.g.
While I would never disagree with revising the default patterns from time to time, more specifics about the bloat installed on a default TW GNOME desktop are necessary for a clearer discussion. The only 'third' party apps installed by default, to my eyes at least, are * Firefox (obviously mandatory) * LibreOffice (also mandatory, imho) * GIMP (same) * YaST (openSUSE feature). We have a few lightweight games installed by default, these used to the core suite of GNOME games not too long ago. I feel that the default system would be rather drab and dry without any games at all. Everything else comes from the current "Core" suite of GNOME apps. I think we have gnome-terminal instead of the newer 'console' and 'gedit' intead of the newer 'gnome-text-editor'; we could probably switch them, but to me it seems the two newer apps are not feature-ready to replace the older ones yet. So, to me it seems our default GNOME is pretty slim already, not a lot of bloat there anyway.
What I suggest: - make the following patterns:
In particular, I think the GNOME patterns available on openSUSE are quite (too?) modular. Indeed we aready have the following different patterns: * patterns-gnome-devel_gnome :GNOME Development * patterns-gnome-gnome :GNOME Desktop Environment (Wayland) * patterns-gnome-gnome_basic :GNOME Desktop Environment (Basic) * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis :GNOME Base System * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis_opt :GNOME Base System * patterns-gnome-gnome_games :GNOME Games * patterns-gnome-gnome_ide :GNOME Integrated Development Environment * patterns-gnome-gnome_imaging :GNOME Graphics * patterns-gnome-gnome_internet :GNOME Internet * patterns-gnome-gnome_multimedia :GNOME Multimedia * patterns-gnome-gnome_office :GNOME Office * patterns-gnome-gnome_utilities :GNOME Utilities * patterns-gnome-gnome_x11 :GNOME Desktop Environment (X11) * patterns-gnome-gnome_yast :YaST GNOME User Interfaces Are you suggesting reducing the number of modules or increasing them by adding these new patterns you suggest?
* base GNOME with everything you need to run the environment itself without GNOME Core, but with a browser (for Internet access), an update viewer and package source code (which, as I understand it, is mandatory in openSUSE) * GNOME Core - respectively, all applications from the GNOME core, taken from here: https://apps.gnome.org/en/,
Are you suggesting to install this "GNOME Core" suite by default? But, isn't this pretty much what we have by default, except that we eschew Calendar in favour of the Evolution email and calendar suite? As you can see the above list of core GNOME apps does not list any email clients, so I think this is a net positive for openSUSE.
except for Logs (because there is YaST),
We could probably remove this from the default installed apps, yeah.
Photo (because there is eog),
Two entirely different apps, Photos is a photo manager/viewer while EOG is merely an image viewer and I see the value in keeping both.
Web browser (because there is Firefox)
It is already not installed by default AFAIK.
and Video (VLC can be supplied instead).
Please no! Videos integrates with the GNOME DE significantly better (theme, HiDPI, etc.), and we do not want to introduce Qt apps into default GNOME patterns anyway (although we _have to_ because of YaST).
That's all and the GNOME base will be as a GNOME system role. * leave the rest as is, fixing them if the patterns above catch applications from the rest - remove the Wayland patterns by spliting it with the GNOME Base (or leave as is, but add it to Basic GNOME and rename it to gnome_wayland pattern)
I don't see a Wayland pattern when searching with zypper. Do you mean: patterns-gnome-gnome | GNOME Desktop Environment (Wayland) But that is the default GNOME pattern installed on TW.
I think to reduce the GNOME base just as much, because GNOME Core can change its composition (except for settings and the file manager, their changes are quite rare so far) and a separate package for such changes will be easier to maintain in the future.
I would argue the different GNOME patterns are mostly very good as they are. We are not an upstream GNOME desktop, so we should decide on the merits/de-merits of our own steady, consistent defaults rather than simply going by whatever upstream GNOME calls 'Core', which as I understand changes all too frequently. As an aside: perhaps we could do with a minor name change as 'patterns-gnome-gnome_basic' and 'patterns-gnome-gnome_basis' are rather too similar... but that would be almost all that I would do. Cheers, -- Atri Bhattacharya <badshah400>
ti., okt. 4 2022 at kl. 17.59 +0000 -0000 skrev Atri Bhattacharya
On Tue, 2022-10-04 at 15:33 +0000, Milachew wrote:
Snip. You both are probably missing the fact that there are patterns and then there are packages called patterns-foo. This is where we fail - Documenting how to quickly and easy remove all the patterns (so one does not end up in the recommends pulls in the patterns and packages again). --------------- In a fresh installed gnome-box vm (default install, selecting gnome-desktop in the installer). localhost:~ # zypper search --installed-only --type pattern Building repository 'openSUSE-Tumbleweed-Oss' cache ....................................................................................................[done] Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... S | Name | Summary | Type ---+---------------+-------------------------------------+-------- i+ | apparmor | AppArmor | pattern i+ | base | Base System | pattern i | documentation | Help and Support Documentation | pattern i+ | enhanced_base | Enhanced Base System | pattern i | fonts | Fonts | pattern i+ | gnome | GNOME Desktop Environment (Wayland) | pattern i | gnome_basic | GNOME Desktop Environment (Basic) | pattern i | gnome_x11 | GNOME Desktop Environment (X11) | pattern i | imaging | Graphics | pattern i | minimal_base | Minimal Appliance Base | pattern i | multimedia | Multimedia | pattern i | office | Office Software | pattern i | sw_management | Software Management | pattern i+ | x11 | X Window System | pattern i+ | x11_yast | YaST User Interfaces | pattern i+ | yast2_basis | YaST Base Utilities | pattern i | yast2_desktop | YaST Desktop Utilities | pattern localhost:~ # zypper remove --type pattern apparmor base documentation enhanced_base fonts gnome gnome_basic gnome_x11 imaging minimal_base multimedia office sw_management x11 x11_yast yast2_basis yast2_desktop Reading installed packages... Resolving package dependencies... The following 25 packages are going to be REMOVED: patterns-base-apparmor patterns-base-base patterns-base-basesystem patterns-base-documentation patterns-base-enhanced_base patterns-base-minimal_base patterns-base-sw_management patterns-base-x11 patterns-base-x11_enhanced patterns-desktop-imaging patterns-desktop-multimedia patterns-fonts-fonts patterns-gnome-gnome patterns-gnome-gnome_basic patterns-gnome-gnome_basis patterns-gnome-gnome_basis_opt patterns-gnome-gnome_imaging patterns-gnome-gnome_office patterns-gnome-gnome_utilities patterns-gnome-gnome_x11 patterns-gnome-sw_management_gnome patterns-office-office patterns-yast-x11_yast patterns-yast-yast2_basis patterns-yast-yast2_desktop The following 25 patterns are going to be REMOVED: apparmor base basesystem documentation enhanced_base fonts gnome gnome_basic gnome_basis gnome_basis_opt gnome_imaging gnome_office gnome_utilities gnome_x11 imaging minimal_base multimedia office sw_management sw_management_gnome x11 x11_enhanced x11_yast yast2_basis yast2_desktop 25 packages to remove. After the operation, 1.4 KiB will be freed. Continue? [y/n/v/...? shows all options] (y): ( 1/25) Removing patterns-base-apparmor-20200505-38.1.x86_64 ...........................................................................................[done] ( 2/25) Removing patterns-base-documentation-20200505-38.1.x86_64 ......................................................................................[done] ( 3/25) Removing patterns-base-x11_enhanced-20200505-38.1.x86_64 .......................................................................................[done] ( 4/25) Removing patterns-desktop-imaging-20201106-3.4.x86_64 ..........................................................................................[done] ( 5/25) Removing patterns-desktop-multimedia-20201106-3.4.x86_64 .......................................................................................[done] ( 6/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome-20201210-12.2.x86_64 .............................................................................................[done] ( 7/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_basis_opt-20201210-12.2.x86_64 ...................................................................................[done] ( 8/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_imaging-20201210-12.2.x86_64 .....................................................................................[done] ( 9/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_office-20201210-12.2.x86_64 ......................................................................................[done] (10/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_utilities-20201210-12.2.x86_64 ...................................................................................[done] (11/25) Removing patterns-gnome-sw_management_gnome-20201210-12.2.x86_64 ...............................................................................[done] (12/25) Removing patterns-office-office-20170506-3.13.x86_64 ...........................................................................................[done] (13/25) Removing patterns-yast-x11_yast-20220411-1.3.x86_64 ............................................................................................[done] (14/25) Removing patterns-yast-yast2_basis-20220411-1.3.x86_64 .........................................................................................[done] (15/25) Removing patterns-yast-yast2_desktop-20220411-1.3.x86_64 .......................................................................................[done] (16/25) Removing patterns-fonts-fonts-20170319-8.2.x86_64 ..............................................................................................[done] (17/25) Removing patterns-base-enhanced_base-20200505-38.1.x86_64 ......................................................................................[done] (18/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_x11-20201210-12.2.x86_64 .........................................................................................[done] (19/25) Removing patterns-base-sw_management-20200505-38.1.x86_64 ......................................................................................[done] (20/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_basic-20201210-12.2.x86_64 .......................................................................................[done] (21/25) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_basis-20201210-12.2.x86_64 .......................................................................................[done] (22/25) Removing patterns-base-basesystem-20200505-38.1.x86_64 .........................................................................................[done] (23/25) Removing patterns-base-x11-20200505-38.1.x86_64 ................................................................................................[done] (24/25) Removing patterns-base-base-20200505-38.1.x86_64 ...............................................................................................[done] (25/25) Removing patterns-base-minimal_base-20200505-38.1.x86_64 .......................................................................................[done] localhost:~ # zypper search --installed-only *patterns* Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... S | Name | Summary | Type --+---------------------------------+----------------------------------------+-------- i | libqt5-qtxmlpatterns-imports | QML imports for the XmlPatterns module | package i | patterns-fonts-fonts_opt | Fonts | package i | patterns-gnome-gnome_games | GNOME Games | package i | patterns-gnome-gnome_internet | GNOME Internet | package i | patterns-gnome-gnome_multimedia | GNOME Multimedia | package i | patterns-gnome-gnome_yast | YaST GNOME User Interfaces | package localhost:~ # zypper rm patterns-fonts-fonts_opt patterns-gnome-gnome_games patterns-gnome-gnome_internet patterns-gnome-gnome_multimedia patterns-gnome-gnome_yast Reading installed packages... Resolving package dependencies... The following 5 packages are going to be REMOVED: patterns-fonts-fonts_opt patterns-gnome-gnome_games patterns-gnome-gnome_internet patterns-gnome-gnome_multimedia patterns-gnome-gnome_yast The following 5 patterns are going to be REMOVED: fonts_opt gnome_games gnome_internet gnome_multimedia gnome_yast 5 packages to remove. After the operation, 290.0 B will be freed. Continue? [y/n/v/...? shows all options] (y): (1/5) Removing patterns-fonts-fonts_opt-20170319-8.2.x86_64 ............................................................................................[done] (2/5) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_games-20201210-12.2.x86_64 .........................................................................................[done] (3/5) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_internet-20201210-12.2.x86_64 ......................................................................................[done] (4/5) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_multimedia-20201210-12.2.x86_64 ....................................................................................[done] (5/5) Removing patterns-gnome-gnome_yast-20201210-12.2.x86_64 ..........................................................................................[done] localhost:~ # zypper search --installed-only --details --type pattern Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... No matching items found. localhost:~ # zypper search --installed-only --details pattern Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... S | Name | Type | Version | Arch | Repository --+------------------------------+---------+-----------------+--------+------------------------ i | libqt5-qtxmlpatterns-imports | package | 5.15.6+kde0-1.1 | x86_64 | openSUSE-Tumbleweed-Oss i | libQt5XmlPatterns5 | package | 5.15.6+kde0-1.1 | x86_64 | openSUSE-Tumbleweed-Oss localhost:~ # zypper install-new-recommends Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Resolving package dependencies... Nothing to do. -------------- Aka get the msg out that one should remove both "types of" patterns -- and not use zypper remove --clean-deps / zypper rm -u when doing so. After this is done, one can remove what the heart desires, and if one insists on making ones life even harder, one can disable recommended packages in /etc/zypp.conf /Bjørn PS I did notice one regression from the last time I installed fresh - games do not show up in a "app folder". Pretty sure they did in the past, and once I dragged one game onto an other, gnome-shell automagically called the app-folder games, so I suspect there is a bug somewhere there. Fixing that one will make the "overview" look a bit cleaner on a fresh install.
Regarding overloading the environment: I'm talking about overloading "out of the box", compared, for example, with the same Fedora. And I noticed that not only me, but also users from Reddit/YouTube and the like. That's why I suggested reducing the base set and the set that is set by default, since it's not difficult to "install" in general (considering the presence of templates), but it can be scary for the unprepared to remove it (especially if he prefers to do it using patterns ). Regarding existing modules: I propose to reduce them by connecting packages from one pattern to another. Here, as for me, it would be very useful to revise the patterns: * patterns-gnome-gnome * patterns-gnome-gnome_basic * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis_opt Namely : - change the name of the pattern "GNOME Desktop Environment (Wayland)" to just "GNOME Desktop Environment" or "Full GNOME Desktop Environment", adding the wayland package to the default base distribution. Judging by the spec file on OBS, the "gnome" pattern doesn't do much, just delivers the wayland package to everything (judging by the Recommends section). How about adding this package to "gnome_basic" and then renaming it to "gnome"? - reduce the number of patterns suggested above. For example, I think it's quite possible to add gnome_basis_opt to gnome_basic, since the only thing it recommends is "dynamic-wallpaper-branding-openSUSE" (which, by the way, I did not find in the repositories on fresh TW) The rest of the templates, in general, I see no reason to correct. They answer to their names and would obviously be useful to someone. Regarding defaults: In general, I suspected that you were moving away from the "upstream" vision of the GNOME set. Now got an official answer :) Then, in general, if the basic GNOME patterns are simplified (eg, as per my suggestions above), this should give users more confidence in customizing their installation. And finally: how about enabling the default GNOME wallpaper pack (without changing the default wallpaper, of course)? Thank you for such high quality feedback!
Bjørn Lie wrote:
On Tue, 2022-10-04 at 15:33 +0000, Milachew wrote: Snip. You both are probably missing the fact that there are patterns and then
ti., okt. 4 2022 at kl. 17.59 +0000 -0000 skrev Atri Bhattacharya badshah400@opensuse.org følgende: there are packages called patterns-foo. This is where we fail - Documenting how to quickly and easy remove all the patterns (so one does not end up in the recommends pulls in the patterns and packages again).
Bjørn Lie, as far as I understand, packages with the "patterns-*" and the type "patterns" are one and the same. That is, if I try to install the pattern type "books" or the package "pattern-books" I get the same thing. Is that what bothers you?
ons. 5. okt. 2022 kl. 11:13 skrev Milachew
Regarding overloading the environment: I'm talking about overloading "out of the box", compared, for example, with the same Fedora. And I noticed that not only me, but also users from Reddit/YouTube and the like.
Why should we make a clone of Fedora? - Would it not make sense for users that want fedora to install fedora? The reason for us to install a bunch of different software by default, is that we want to finished install to be "usefull" out of the box for as many people as possible. As of right now, I feel we have hit a "reasonable" average install. For the uses that want to customize the installation - pretty please with sugar on top do so, right from the installer - one can disable recommends, one can remove patterns and pattern-packages, and handcraft the install from here to Mars and back again. If endusers want a "Nissan Skyline super trimmed slimmed down edition" of openSUSE GNOME they may install MicroOS GNOME -> hardly a single app installed by default there, and not even recommends is enabled in zypp.conf.
That's why I suggested reducing the base set and the set that is set by default, since it's not difficult to "install" in general (considering the presence of templates), but it can be scary for the unprepared to remove it (especially if he prefers to do it using patterns ).
But it is not scary or dangerous if one just removes the patterns and pattern-packages. Making them smaller does not make the problem "go away" - because what you consider expandable, someone else considers "mandatory". But as said in earlier emails, we do fail in explaining/documenting how to remove patterns/pattern-packages. That is however not a "GNOME" issue, but a openSUSE one in itself.
Regarding existing modules: I propose to reduce them by connecting packages from one pattern to another. Here, as for me, it would be very useful to revise the patterns: * patterns-gnome-gnome * patterns-gnome-gnome_basic * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis_opt
https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/GNOME:Next/patterns-gnome Branch the package and change away - then sub it back for review. The pushback you are getting is not to say that changes submitted will be autorejected. They will all be reviewed in time. snip
And finally: how about enabling the default GNOME wallpaper pack (without changing the default wallpaper, of course)?
I did just that 10 days ago - not yet reviewed or rejected - so still waiting. https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/1005863 /B
Bjørn Lie wrote:
ons. 5. okt. 2022 kl. 11:13 skrev Milachew milachew@mail.lv:
Regarding overloading the environment: I'm talking about overloading "out of the box", compared, for example, with the same Fedora. And I noticed that not only me, but also users from Reddit/YouTube and the like. Why should we make a clone of Fedora? - Would it not make sense for users that want fedora to install fedora?
I didn't want to propose make "Fedora clone". I propose make GNOME installation by default less. And as example I took Fedora. Generally, I have understanded a reason, why in GNOME installation more apps by default in openSUSE thanks to the messages above.
Branch the package and change away - then sub it back for review. The pushback you are getting is not to say that changes submitted will be autorejected. They will all be reviewed in time.
Ok, generally, I have gotten enough information and understanding to make quite a successful attempt to suggest relevant changes of default GNOME patterns. Thanks for the hint at the end of the part of the message I quoted!
On Tue 2022-10-04, Atri Bhattacharya wrote:
* patterns-gnome-gnome_basic :GNOME Desktop Environment (Basic) * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis :GNOME Base System * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis_opt :GNOME Base System
As an aside: perhaps we could do with a minor name change as 'patterns-gnome-gnome_basic' and 'patterns-gnome-gnome_basis' are rather too similar...
Yes. Please. :-) Those two (or three) really are confusing. Gerald
Le jeudi 27 octobre 2022 à 22:10 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
On Tue 2022-10-04, Atri Bhattacharya wrote:
* patterns-gnome-gnome_basic :GNOME Desktop Environment (Basic) * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis :GNOME Base System * patterns-gnome-gnome_basis_opt :GNOME Base System
As an aside: perhaps we could do with a minor name change as 'patterns-gnome-gnome_basic' and 'patterns-gnome-gnome_basis' are rather too similar...
Yes. Please. :-)
Those two (or three) really are confusing.
There is a good reason which I created both basis vs basic patterns: use case. back in SLE12 days (and before Factory first policy), SLED and SLES had completely separate GNOME patterns which was very painful to maintain. For SLE15, I merge both SLES and SLED patterns and create a "common" pattern (gnome_basis) and then, two patterns on top, one targetted for SLES (gnome_basic) and one for SLED / openSUSE desktop users (gnome). While the naming isn't perfect, I couldn't find anything better. -- Frederic CROZAT Enterprise Linux OS and Containers Architect SUSE
participants (5)
-
Atri Bhattacharya -
Bjørn Lie -
Frederic Crozat -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Milachew