[opensuse-gnome] nobody likes the application-browser...
Hello, I'd like to bring up once again the perhaps most controversial issue in openSUSE's rendition of GNOME: its way of browsing/starting applications. Regular complaints about the application-browser are: 1) it is not GNOME standard 2) application-browser start-up time is too long 3) finding applications in app-browser is cumbersome There's not much to say about 1); many things about openSUSE are far from Vanilla, and be that good or not, it won't change. 2) is an issue that has been 'taken care of' several times AFAIK but none of the attempts have really resolved the issue. The application-browser can still take anything up to a minute on my 1.7 Ghz, 512 MB RAM computer to start (and by this I don't mean first-time startup) when I'm running other applications. What, if anything, else could be done to resolve this issue, apart from simply ditching the app-browser as a concept? 3) is a valid complaint IMHO, last brought up in this review: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,138886-c,suse/article.html Quote: "if you're looking for a spreadsheet, for example, you must first scroll through almost a full page of games." The reviewer obviously didn't click the categories on the left window pane but simply scrolled down the menu from top to bottom in order to find the application she was looking for. Can we expect users to do otherwise; even to enter a search-term in the search-box on the top-left corner? I think not. Also there is a lack of sub-categories A possible solution comes from ASUS' new customized Xandros-desktop for their Eee-PC; they use a full-screen, tabbed 'application-browser' of sorts: http://www.eeeuser.com/2007/10/29/eee-pc-xandros-linux-review/ The decision to make the GUI full-screen-size and always visible might well be attributed to the minuscule size of the device's screen (7"). Still the screen-real-estate is small, so it uses two ways to very effectively reduce the number of applications that are immediately visible: -tabs -icons that lead to a deeper-level hierarchy I think the positive effect on usability is just remarkable. Please test it using this 'interactive' demo: http://honeypothack.com/eee/internet.htm How about a re-design of the application-browser using tabs (if not a second-level hierachy for technical reasons)? Do you think it would improve user-experience (I do)? Would it be much work? Mockup: http://img482.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tabbedappbrowserho1.png Another point: If one could use the same screen-estate for the main-menu as the ASUS-device uses for its launcher - ideally reducing the amount of icons by sub-categories - one could well integrate the tabbed app-browser directly into the 'Computer'-menu and NOT have the startup-lag of a separate application-browser, thus solving problem 2), I think. Just a reminder that this option exists; 'Mint' does something like that. Mockup: http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainmenujp8.png Greets, Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Christian Jäger escribió:
Hello,
I'd like to bring up once again the perhaps most controversial issue in openSUSE's rendition of GNOME: its way of browsing/starting applications.
Regular complaints about the application-browser are:
1) it is not GNOME standard 2) application-browser start-up time is too long 3) finding applications in app-browser is cumbersome
I totally agree with these 3 points.
There's not much to say about 1); many things about openSUSE are far from Vanilla, and be that good or not, it won't change.
2) is an issue that has been 'taken care of' several times AFAIK but none of the attempts have really resolved the issue. The application-browser can still take anything up to a minute on my 1.7 Ghz, 512 MB RAM computer to start (and by this I don't mean first-time startup) when I'm running other applications. What, if anything, else could be done to resolve this issue, apart from simply ditching the app-browser as a concept?
SLAB is also very slow to open.
3) is a valid complaint IMHO, last brought up in this review: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,138886-c,suse/article.html
Quote: "if you're looking for a spreadsheet, for example, you must first scroll through almost a full page of games."
The reviewer obviously didn't click the categories on the left window pane but simply scrolled down the menu from top to bottom in order to find the application she was looking for. Can we expect users to do otherwise; even to enter a search-term in the search-box on the top-left corner? I think not. Also there is a lack of sub-categories
A possible solution comes from ASUS' new customized Xandros-desktop for their Eee-PC; they use a full-screen, tabbed 'application-browser' of sorts: http://www.eeeuser.com/2007/10/29/eee-pc-xandros-linux-review/
The decision to make the GUI full-screen-size and always visible might well be attributed to the minuscule size of the device's screen (7"). Still the screen-real-estate is small, so it uses two ways to very effectively reduce the number of applications that are immediately visible: -tabs -icons that lead to a deeper-level hierarchy
I think the positive effect on usability is just remarkable.
Please test it using this 'interactive' demo: http://honeypothack.com/eee/internet.htm
How about a re-design of the application-browser using tabs (if not a second-level hierachy for technical reasons)? Do you think it would improve user-experience (I do)? Would it be much work?
Mockup: http://img482.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tabbedappbrowserho1.png
Another point: If one could use the same screen-estate for the main-menu as the ASUS-device uses for its launcher - ideally reducing the amount of icons by sub-categories - one could well integrate the tabbed app-browser directly into the 'Computer'-menu and NOT have the startup-lag of a separate application-browser, thus solving problem 2), I think. Just a reminder that this option exists; 'Mint' does something like that.
Mockup: http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainmenujp8.png
This option looks good and is more confortable to use than the current one. Actually, I'm using the standard gnome menu (Application, Places, System), 'cause I really dislikes the current one.
Greets, Chris
Best regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2007-11-01 at 19:51 -0300, Gabriel wrote:
This option looks good and is more confortable to use than the current one. Actually, I'm using the standard gnome menu (Application, Places, System), 'cause I really dislikes the current one.
I have to admit that I, too, use the standard GNOME menu. I wouldn't say that I dislike the application browser. It is just simply too slow for regular use. I look at the browser more as just that.. a "broswer." "Hmm... let's see what I have on my new computer." But once you know what you have, the browser in its current format becomes useless. In regular use, menus and desktop shortcuts/panel applets will always rule the day. It probably could gain better traction if it had customizations to allow users to design their own layouts. After all, the idea behind application-browser was to make it easier for the user. Who knows better what's easier than the users themselves? -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
I have to admit that I, too, use the standard GNOME menu. I wouldn't say that I dislike the application browser. It is just simply too slow for regular use. I look at the browser more as just that.. a "broswer." "Hmm... let's see what I have on my new computer." But once you know what you have, the browser in its current format becomes useless. In regular use, menus and desktop shortcuts/panel applets will always rule the day.
It's a conceptual mistake. If you open a menu, you expect to find your applications there. In the current version of main-menu, you find your most used apps, which is good, but you need another window to open other apps, with the result that you switch to the standard menu.
It probably could gain better traction if it had customizations to allow users to design their own layouts. After all, the idea behind application-browser was to make it easier for the user. Who knows better what's easier than the users themselves?
I think the easiest way to make it usable is to remove the browser and let the "More apps..." button open a sort of standard meny (XP style, to be clear). A better solution would be to do something like kickoff does in KDE. Regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 01:19 +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
I have to admit that I, too, use the standard GNOME menu. I wouldn't say that I dislike the application browser. It is just simply too slow for regular use. I look at the browser more as just that.. a "broswer." "Hmm... let's see what I have on my new computer." But once you know what you have, the browser in its current format becomes useless. In regular use, menus and desktop shortcuts/panel applets will always rule the day.
It's a conceptual mistake. If you open a menu, you expect to find your applications there. In the current version of main-menu, you find your most used apps, which is good, but you need another window to open other apps, with the result that you switch to the standard menu.
It probably could gain better traction if it had customizations to allow users to design their own layouts. After all, the idea behind application-browser was to make it easier for the user. Who knows better what's easier than the users themselves?
I think the easiest way to make it usable is to remove the browser and let the "More apps..." button open a sort of standard meny (XP style, to be clear). A better solution would be to do something like kickoff does in KDE.
I haven't looked at KDE in ages, so really wouldn't know about Kickoff. :-) Just to be clear, my opinions of application-browser were not a criticism per se. Just that I don't consider it, in its present state, to be useful tool for a seasoned user. For a first time user, it is an excellent way to introduce users to all the cool stuff that comes with Suse. Remember, Novell isn't just in the business of making Linux better for you and me, but also for selling the solution to new users. (Hopefully spurring adoption enmasse.) Finding a way for GNOME to intelligently transition users from beginners to seasoned would be interesting, but challenging, I'm sure. As for the "recent applications" feature, I find it more annoying than useful. I use anywhere from 5-10 applications a day, so the "recent applications" feature gets outdated in a matter of minutes. But that's not really application-browser is it? I thought it was Beagle? -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
As for the "recent applications" feature, I find it more annoying than useful. I use anywhere from 5-10 applications a day, so the "recent applications" feature gets outdated in a matter of minutes. But that's not really application-browser is it? I thought it was Beagle?
The most recent application feature just list the last two most recently used apps. Beagle is the desktop search tool :-) Regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2007-11-01 at 19:51 -0300, Gabriel wrote:
Christian Jäger escribió:
2) is an issue that has been 'taken care of' several times AFAIK but none of the attempts have really resolved the issue. The application-browser can still take anything up to a minute on my 1.7 Ghz, 512 MB RAM computer to start (and by this I don't mean first-time startup) when I'm running other applications. What, if anything, else could be done to resolve this issue, apart from simply ditching the app-browser as a concept? SLAB is also very slow to open.
Yes, it indeed is, and it is very annoying. But mockups are very nice though. It would be very nice if we could switch between tabs and menus with only dragging through them, without the need to click on them. -- Igor Jagec
Hello :-)
Regular complaints about the application-browser are:
1) it is not GNOME standard 2) application-browser start-up time is too long 3) finding applications in app-browser is cumbersome
I still think your proposals ( https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=274817 ) were at least interesting, and were just ignored a bit too easily, without considering them seriously. I'm not sure you're interested in it, but you might try to reopen the bug report and discuss these things on the GNOME IRC channel #opensuse-gnome at Freenode. I hope you'll succeed. Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Hello Alberto, thanks for your nice words about the mockups, but ultimately mockups are easy to do. Actually I don't think at all that they have been ignored, but employed developers can hardly decide by themselves what they work on. I hope I have come up with one or two ideas that some developer remembers when the time comes to re-work the main-menu. (BTW, here's another mockup that uses as little screen-estate as the Eee-PC menu: http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainmenuyx0.png) What I'm really about now is that the application-browser could be made more user-friendly by (hopefully) quite simple alterations. If at least tabs could be implemented, users would probably work more efficiently - less visible icons, less need to scroll. Thanks again. Greets, Chris Am Freitag, den 02.11.2007, 01:15 +0100 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
Hello :-)
Regular complaints about the application-browser are:
1) it is not GNOME standard 2) application-browser start-up time is too long 3) finding applications in app-browser is cumbersome
I still think your proposals ( https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=274817 ) were at least interesting, and were just ignored a bit too easily, without considering them seriously.
I'm not sure you're interested in it, but you might try to reopen the bug report and discuss these things on the GNOME IRC channel #opensuse-gnome at Freenode.
I hope you'll succeed.
Alberto
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On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 21:22 +0100, Christian Jäger wrote:
Hello Alberto,
thanks for your nice words about the mockups, but ultimately mockups are easy to do. Actually I don't think at all that they have been ignored, but employed developers can hardly decide by themselves what they work on. I hope I have come up with one or two ideas that some developer remembers when the time comes to re-work the main-menu. (BTW, here's another mockup that uses as little screen-estate as the Eee-PC menu: http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainmenuyx0.png)
Your link prompted me to log in. Can you post these mockups someplace where we aren't required to login because I would love to check out your ideas. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
oops - http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2748/mainmenuyx0.png ^_^ Am Freitag, den 02.11.2007, 16:03 -0500 schrieb Bryen:
On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 21:22 +0100, Christian Jäger wrote:
Hello Alberto,
thanks for your nice words about the mockups, but ultimately mockups are easy to do. Actually I don't think at all that they have been ignored, but employed developers can hardly decide by themselves what they work on. I hope I have come up with one or two ideas that some developer remembers when the time comes to re-work the main-menu. (BTW, here's another mockup that uses as little screen-estate as the Eee-PC menu: http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainmenuyx0.png)
Your link prompted me to log in. Can you post these mockups someplace where we aren't required to login because I would love to check out your ideas.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 22:24 +0100, Christian Jäger wrote:
oops - http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2748/mainmenuyx0.png
^_^
Am Freitag, den 02.11.2007, 16:03 -0500 schrieb Bryen:
On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 21:22 +0100, Christian Jäger wrote:
Hello Alberto,
thanks for your nice words about the mockups, but ultimately mockups are easy to do. Actually I don't think at all that they have been ignored, but employed developers can hardly decide by themselves what they work on. I hope I have come up with one or two ideas that some developer remembers when the time comes to re-work the main-menu. (BTW, here's another mockup that uses as little screen-estate as the Eee-PC menu: http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainmenuyx0.png)
Your link prompted me to log in. Can you post these mockups someplace where we aren't required to login because I would love to check out your ideas.
I like where the idea is going in this mockup. Seems editable and customizable. I never use main-menu, and instead created a panel with my favorite apps icons. If I were able to customize main-menu and put more of my favorites up front, I'd probably ditch the panel. The panel's greatest benefit is quick access to applications. The panel's worst 'benefit' is that it takes up valuable screen real estate. Customizable main-menu would definitely make a user out of me. Don't know how others here feel. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
I added the discussion to the "new ideas for 11" section on the wiki http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Ideas/11.0 at the page http://en.opensuse.org/Redesign_of_GNOME_main_menu_and_application_browser I hope you don't mind I cited you ;-) Regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Thanks, Alberto. I had wanted to do that but lazy as I am... Looks nice. ^_^ Greets, Chris Am Samstag, den 03.11.2007, 01:06 +0100 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
I added the discussion to the "new ideas for 11" section on the wiki
http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Ideas/11.0
at the page
http://en.opensuse.org/Redesign_of_GNOME_main_menu_and_application_browser
I hope you don't mind I cited you ;-)
Regards, Alberto
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Hello, I've written a little something on that page now, too. Is it OK? Greets, Chris Am Samstag, den 03.11.2007, 01:06 +0100 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
I added the discussion to the "new ideas for 11" section on the wiki
http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Ideas/11.0
at the page
http://en.opensuse.org/Redesign_of_GNOME_main_menu_and_application_browser
I hope you don't mind I cited you ;-)
Regards, Alberto
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Yeah, I've just checked and I think it's perfect :-) Regards, Alberto Il giorno dom, 04/11/2007 alle 23.43 +0100, Christian Jäger ha scritto:
Hello,
I've written a little something on that page now, too. Is it OK?
Greets, Chris
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
What I'm really about now is that the application-browser could be made more user-friendly by (hopefully) quite simple alterations. If at least tabs could be implemented, users would probably work more efficiently - less visible icons, less need to scroll.
This is a good idea for a temporary patch. However, I doubt it will be done for 10.3, and for 11.0 I hope in a full redesign of the menu in a more rational way. I think you probably should try to take part to a status meeting and try to introduce the problem there. If you agree, I'll collect your suggestions and others in a wiki page. With kind regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Bryen -
Christian Jäger -
Gabriel -
Igor Jagec