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On 5/15/2009 at 12:58, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote: Le vendredi 15 mai 2009, à 12:56 +0200, Dominique Leuenberger a écrit : If we set this as default, I'd suggest to have in g-c-c somewhere a setting for this. I don't think gconf-editor should become the 'main' application for people to configure their settings. I think in alacarte such a setting switch would make most sense.

It's there, last tab of the appearance capplet. Was using the gconf key to make the question less ambiguous ;-)

Indeed. Shows that it's not where I would have expected it ;) but at least it's already accessible by gui. That point would be solved. Nevertheless: the menu looks 'broken' without icons. (might also look this way for people migrating from windows. Even there every item has it's icon. And honestly, I don't know how often I only look at the icon in choosing the right item in the menu. Not having them would force me to learn reading. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

(Sorry for the top reply, using Outlook @ work) I actually liked the icons in the menus... maybe I'm just weird? As long as the menu option to turn them back on doesn't go anywhere, I'll be happy though. -----Original Message----- From: Vincent Untz [mailto:vuntz@opensuse.org] Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:12 PM To: opensuse-gnome@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-gnome] Removing icons from menus by default Le vendredi 15 mai 2009, à 12:57 -0600, Stephen Shaw a écrit :

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:50 AM, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:

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Hey,

What do people think about setting /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons to FALSE by default?

I'm trying this, and while a few things needs some changes (panel menus, mainly), I believe it makes the interface feel more stream-lined. So this might be something we could consider for 11.2...

Vincent

Not bad... I kind of like it, but if I'm doing it right, it seems really lame that it doesn't give you that space back. It looks like it just doesn't show the icon instead of not showing it and resizing it

Yeah, it feels a bit weird at first. This is for menu items with a check box or radio buttons, so it's needed for some menus, and for consistency, it's needed for all menus. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Hans Petter Jansson wrote:

On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 12:50 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

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What do people think about setting /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons to FALSE by default?

I'm trying this, and while a few things needs some changes (panel menus, mainly), I believe it makes the interface feel more stream-lined. So this might be something we could consider for 11.2...

I'm pretty sure it'll make the menus harder to scan, and it'll take longer to visually locate standard items like the "Print", "Save" and "Quit" items.

Aesthetically I don't have a strong preference.

If you believe that form should follow function, then loss of some functionality equates to less aesthetically pleasing. And I would think that this aesthetic ideal is fairly strong among the type of user who would be attracted to Linux in general, and *SUSE linux in particular. For both this issue and the icons off the desktop by default issue, I do not believe that less is more...it is always easier to know that an option to remove might exist, if something is visible, than to even be aware of the existence of an option to add, if that option begins as hidden. The average newcomer to linux and/or our distro is probably smart enough to look for, and find a way to turn things off. But it is technical arrogance to think that a so-called "streamlined" design is so good that either users should be discouraged from going down a different path, or that they should have to study to learn about (initially) invisible features if they still want them. My $0.02 US, for what it's worth... I say it is better to make features closer to where our new users are likely to be coming from, as a default. If one feels that a different paradigm is much better, then make it an easy switch (both ways!), but don't throw the new way in front of them and hope that they won't get frustrated (and quit) if the leap forward is too great to be a comfortable transition. I am moving away from very many icons on the desktop, but I want to see the familiar ones there, and recognizable, at least at the outset. And I want visual and textual pointers to menu options, with the option for either or both. I even like being able to override this (persistently) for subsets, where possible. In case you can't tell, I HATE when I want to experiment with something new, and find out that it has assumed that I must want it active and persistent, just because I download it to explore. Similarly, I feel that way about install defaults for an entire WM or distro. Let's start out with sound engineering -- the principle of least disruption plus maximum flexibility -- rather than starting with pushing new paradigms, and hiding the more "traditional", read familiar, ways of doing things. </soapbox off> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org

Stanislav Brabec wrote:

Vincent Untz wrote:

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Hey,

What do people think about setting /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons to FALSE by default?

I'm trying this, and while a few things needs some changes (panel menus, mainly), I believe it makes the interface feel more stream-lined. So this might be something we could consider for 11.2...

Well, no.

But I guess I could live just with icons, at least in my favorite applications and main menu (I do that for toolbars).

Seriously, there are several ways how human brain locates items. Different people can have a significantly different time of recognition depending on way they have to locate it. It is more than a personal preference and it's not easy to change. That is why the default should be sufficient for everybody.

Text recognition:

Use verbs while searching. Read and understand text very fast. Verbally oriented people would like text menu.

Image recognition:

Use images while searching. Quickly recognize images and symbols. Visually oriented people would like icons.

Topological recognition:

Remember position of item. Quickly find it in a correct order. Topologically oriented people want the item in the same place it was last time.

Excellent summation of the various ways people access. As I thought about, I realize that I tend to use topology for items I use a lot, and confirm them via image recognition, never bothering with the text. On the other hand, if I am trying to do something that I only use infrequently, or have never used, text is very important, and once I locate what I want, I ask myself if I am likely to be using this more or less regularly. If so, I tend to try to memorize the image and the location. If not, I tend to try to remember the text (name) as my primary recall mechanism. As a result, I prefer both icons and text, and don't want the system to move locations on me, nor do I want it to dictate a paradigm to me that tries to shoe-horn me into using the desktop a certain way. In fact, that is one of the main reasons I migrated to Gnome after initially using "brand x" (at 10.3, my first foray into openSUSE, though not my first foray into Linux). And on upgrade, I want it to be easy to use the same visuals I used in the previous version, at install. Then I tend to explore new appearances once I get the fundamental things (release notes, changes in this version, etc.) into my brain. I think the key, as someone else noted, is to make it very easy for a user to upgrade (or use for the first time) with minimal changes from what they are accustomed to, and to give the user easy control to change appearances, but never to try to force them onto the user in order to "advance" the appearance or the functionality. If a new way is better (esthetically or functionally) and it is easy enough to discover and implement, people will naturally migrate to it. If the user doesn't find it better, maybe it wasn't as great for them as it seemed at the time it was developed. Attraction (to new ways of doing things) always is more successful in the long run, than promotions and forced transition. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org