[New: openFATE 310238] Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE
Feature added by: Ilya Chernykh (Ansus) Feature #310238, revision 1 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above-mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (RGBsuse) Feature #310238, revision 3 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. + Discussion: + #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) + Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not + maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and + needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project + appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now + it is impossible. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Ilya Chernykh (Ansus) Feature #310238, revision 4 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. + #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) + Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway + there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. + The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can + see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) Feature #310238, revision 5 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. + #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) + Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. + KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty + (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for + enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. + Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. + As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, + many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with + the older ones KDE 3 was build for. + Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. + So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned + KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming + products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. + It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features + compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and + the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good + enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on + stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch + as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming + 4.5 release (just days away!) + So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes + sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Ilya Chernykh (Ansus) Feature #310238, revision 6 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. + #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3) + > Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic + changes. + As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would + not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages + so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. + > Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. + One day in 8 months. Too much? + > So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned + KDE release with no future + I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We + do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. + > So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes + sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. + Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we + need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months. + + -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) Feature #310238, revision 7 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
+ #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) + If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 + repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. + I suggest to reject this feature. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (RGBsuse) Feature #310238, revision 8 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
+ #6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to + #4) + I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 + moths, next time... who knows? + Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT + kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, + then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, + using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Ilya Chernykh (Ansus) Feature #310238, revision 9 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
#6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to #4) I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 moths, next time... who knows? Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. + #8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6) + Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in + excellent form. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. + #7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5) + Why nonsense? -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) Feature #310238, revision 10 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
#6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to #4) I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 moths, next time... who knows? Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. #8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6) Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in excellent form. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. #7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5) Why nonsense? + #9: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-30 21:17:46) (reply to #7) + Because there is no one willing to maintain KDE3 for the whole + distribution lifetime (which is 18 months now). And to be honest you + need more than one to do it. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Ilya Chernykh (Ansus) Feature #310238, revision 11 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
#6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to #4) I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 moths, next time... who knows? Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. #8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6) Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in excellent form. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. #7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5) Why nonsense? #9: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-30 21:17:46) (reply to #7) Because there is no one willing to maintain KDE3 for the whole distribution lifetime (which is 18 months now). And to be honest you need more than one to do it. + #10: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 22:29:47) (reply to #9) + The main part of KDE3 (kdebase3-workplace) is already included in + OpenSUSE 11.3 main repo. It includes Kicker, desktop and many other + programs. The only thing needed to have choice for KDE3 is a small + package kdebase3-session which contains scripts for launching it from + logon screen and an option in the installer to install KDE3. + -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Andrew Joakimsen (joak0) Feature #310238, revision 12 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
#6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to #4) I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 moths, next time... who knows? Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. #8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6) Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in excellent form. + #11: Andrew Joakimsen (joak0) (2010-08-14 11:08:20) (reply to #3) + Well there are missing features in KDE4 that nobody wants to take + responsibility for. I would accept your answer if effort was being + placed into KDE4, but it is not. There are issues reported and + rejected. openSUSE just blames upstream for everything. Upstream will + hear nothing of it. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. #7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5) Why nonsense? #9: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-30 21:17:46) (reply to #7) Because there is no one willing to maintain KDE3 for the whole distribution lifetime (which is 18 months now). And to be honest you need more than one to do it. #10: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 22:29:47) (reply to #9) The main part of KDE3 (kdebase3-workplace) is already included in OpenSUSE 11.3 main repo. It includes Kicker, desktop and many other programs. The only thing needed to have choice for KDE3 is a small package kdebase3-session which contains scripts for launching it from logon screen and an option in the installer to install KDE3. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) Feature #310238, revision 13 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
#6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to #4) I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 moths, next time... who knows? Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. #8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6) Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in excellent form. #11: Andrew Joakimsen (joak0) (2010-08-14 11:08:20) (reply to #3) Well there are missing features in KDE4 that nobody wants to take responsibility for. I would accept your answer if effort was being placed into KDE4, but it is not. There are issues reported and rejected. openSUSE just blames upstream for everything. Upstream will hear nothing of it. + #12: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2010-08-17 15:42:15) (reply to + #11) + It is incorrect to generalise that no effort is being placed into KDE 4 + because your issues were rejected. + Development resources are limited and some issues must be + rejected. openSUSE's very limited development resources are mostly + spent on integration with the openSUSE platform, so we have to bounce + most feature regressions upstream. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. #7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5) Why nonsense? #9: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-30 21:17:46) (reply to #7) Because there is no one willing to maintain KDE3 for the whole distribution lifetime (which is 18 months now). And to be honest you need more than one to do it. #10: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 22:29:47) (reply to #9) The main part of KDE3 (kdebase3-workplace) is already included in OpenSUSE 11.3 main repo. It includes Kicker, desktop and many other programs. The only thing needed to have choice for KDE3 is a small package kdebase3-session which contains scripts for launching it from logon screen and an option in the installer to install KDE3. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Feature changed by: Thomas Garson (tgarson) Feature #310238, revision 14 Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
#6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to #4) I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 moths, next time... who knows? Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. #8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6) Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in excellent form. #11: Andrew Joakimsen (joak0) (2010-08-14 11:08:20) (reply to #3) Well there are missing features in KDE4 that nobody wants to take responsibility for. I would accept your answer if effort was being placed into KDE4, but it is not. There are issues reported and rejected. openSUSE just blames upstream for everything. Upstream will hear nothing of it. #12: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2010-08-17 15:42:15) (reply to #11) It is incorrect to generalise that no effort is being placed into KDE 4 because your issues were rejected. Development resources are limited and some issues must be rejected. openSUSE's very limited development resources are mostly spent on integration with the openSUSE platform, so we have to bounce most feature regressions upstream. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. #7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5) Why nonsense? #9: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-30 21:17:46) (reply to #7) Because there is no one willing to maintain KDE3 for the whole distribution lifetime (which is 18 months now). And to be honest you need more than one to do it. #10: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 22:29:47) (reply to #9) The main part of KDE3 (kdebase3-workplace) is already included in OpenSUSE 11.3 main repo. It includes Kicker, desktop and many other programs. The only thing needed to have choice for KDE3 is a small package kdebase3-session which contains scripts for launching it from logon screen and an option in the installer to install KDE3. + #13: Thomas Garson (tgarson) (2010-11-01 07:37:36) + KDE3 is( was) to Linux what Windows 2000 interface was to Windows: + It worked, it had all of the features anyone but obsessed gamers ever + wanted and had evolved into being relatively easy to configure. It was + also not a heavy consumer of system resources. + + Sadly, the KDE devellopers, taking their cue from Microsoft (Yes, + Widows envy is alive and well within the Linux community) could not be + satisfied with "gilding the lilly", they had to "one up" Vista with + more gadgets, gizmos, and layer upon layer of unnecessary crap. This + they did while ignoring such rudimentary features as making it easy for + a user to change font sizes. They redecorated to the pont of confusion. + KDE 4s nightmare of convoluted configuration applets is worse than when + the supermarket rearranges everything so that people will have to walk + every isle to find what they are looking for. It's really pathetic. + + The best user interface I have ever worked with, and I've experience + with Windows, Apple, CommodoreLinux, etc, were the Work[place Shell and + Presentation Manager that were part of OS/2. If you have not + experienced that envorinment, you havbe missed experiencing the best + possible future path to a computer interface that was truly engineered + to be flexible but accessible. Sadly, Microsoft still owns rights to + enough of that code that IBM is preventind from opening it up. + + KDEs direction so dissapoints me that I would gladly switch in a + heartbeat to a platform that overlayed the Workplace Shell/Presentation + Manager environment on top of Linux. I don't mean to run OS/2 + applications, as there aren't any that are remotely relavlent any more, + outside of very large closed vertical environs. I just want the luxury + of a flexible, efficient and user friendly GUI for running my Linux + programs, and the occasional WIndows app inside of VMWare/XP. KDE 3 was + well on its way top being that. KDE 4 is a gross failure from the + perspective of most users. It may yet kill Suse and any other distro + that relies on it. + -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. One day in 8 months. Too much? So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned. So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
Feature changed by: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) Feature #310238, revision 15 - Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE + Title: Restore KDE3 as part of openSUSE - openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed + openSUSE-11.4: Rejected by Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) + reject date: 2010-11-04 14:55:49 + reject reason: See comments. Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) Description: I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include the possibility to install KDE3 into installer. OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know. This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is still broken and multiple features still missing. Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4. One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system. There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above- mentioned vanilla branch. Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3 just after the bridge is left behind. - - - Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16) Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now it is impossible. #2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1) Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change. The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream. #3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03) Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right. KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream. Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia. As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However, many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with the older ones KDE 3 was build for. Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work. So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3. It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming 4.5 release (just days away!) So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series. #4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3) - - #6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to #4) I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8 moths, next time... who knows? Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking, then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now, using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea. #8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6) Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in excellent form. #11: Andrew Joakimsen (joak0) (2010-08-14 11:08:20) (reply to #3) Well there are missing features in KDE4 that nobody wants to take responsibility for. I would accept your answer if effort was being placed into KDE4, but it is not. There are issues reported and rejected. openSUSE just blames upstream for everything. Upstream will hear nothing of it. #12: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2010-08-17 15:42:15) (reply to #11) It is incorrect to generalise that no effort is being placed into KDE 4 because your issues were rejected. Development resources are limited and some issues must be rejected. openSUSE's very limited development resources are mostly spent on integration with the openSUSE platform, so we have to bounce most feature regressions upstream. #5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17) If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3 repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense. I suggest to reject this feature. #7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5) Why nonsense? #9: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-30 21:17:46) (reply to #7) Because there is no one willing to maintain KDE3 for the whole distribution lifetime (which is 18 months now). And to be honest you need more than one to do it. #10: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 22:29:47) (reply to #9) The main part of KDE3 (kdebase3-workplace) is already included in OpenSUSE 11.3 main repo. It includes Kicker, desktop and many other programs. The only thing needed to have choice for KDE3 is a small package kdebase3-session which contains scripts for launching it from logon screen and an option in the installer to install KDE3. - + #14: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) (2010-11-04 14:56:42) (reply to #10) + Let's fill the build service project with life for KDE3 first before + discussing anything here. #13: Thomas Garson (tgarson) (2010-11-01 07:37:36) KDE3 is( was) to Linux what Windows 2000 interface was to Windows: It worked, it had all of the features anyone but obsessed gamers ever wanted and had evolved into being relatively easy to configure. It was also not a heavy consumer of system resources. - Sadly, the KDE devellopers, taking their cue from Microsoft (Yes, Widows envy is alive and well within the Linux community) could not be satisfied with "gilding the lilly", they had to "one up" Vista with more gadgets, gizmos, and layer upon layer of unnecessary crap. This they did while ignoring such rudimentary features as making it easy for a user to change font sizes. They redecorated to the pont of confusion. KDE 4s nightmare of convoluted configuration applets is worse than when the supermarket rearranges everything so that people will have to walk every isle to find what they are looking for. It's really pathetic. - The best user interface I have ever worked with, and I've experience with Windows, Apple, CommodoreLinux, etc, were the Work[place Shell and Presentation Manager that were part of OS/2. If you have not experienced that envorinment, you havbe missed experiencing the best possible future path to a computer interface that was truly engineered to be flexible but accessible. Sadly, Microsoft still owns rights to enough of that code that IBM is preventind from opening it up. - KDEs direction so dissapoints me that I would gladly switch in a heartbeat to a platform that overlayed the Workplace Shell/Presentation Manager environment on top of Linux. I don't mean to run OS/2 applications, as there aren't any that are remotely relavlent any more, outside of very large closed vertical environs. I just want the luxury of a flexible, efficient and user friendly GUI for running my Linux programs, and the occasional WIndows app inside of VMWare/XP. KDE 3 was well on its way top being that. KDE 4 is a gross failure from the perspective of most users. It may yet kill Suse and any other distro that relies on it. - -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/310238
participants (1)
-
fate_noreply＠suse.de