Feature changed by: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) Feature #305888, revision 7 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 + #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) + Takashi, + If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all + kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to + get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I + get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which + most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: William Simon Lewis (WilliamSimonLewis) Feature #305888, revision 10 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) + #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) + I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the + standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with + openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz + celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I + needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting + off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. + So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) Feature #305888, revision 13 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. + #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) + Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio + Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE + reputation. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) Feature #305888, revision 15 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... + #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) + If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not + compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae + CONFIG_NO_HZ=y + # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set + CONFIG_HZ_250=y + # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set + # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set + CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) Feature #305888, revision 20 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. + #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) + I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace + kernel. + I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: + 1) what is kernel + 2) that there is -rt kernel + 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | + search |install -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Heidi Lahtinen (Chrysantine) Feature #305888, revision 24 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 + #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) + Another useless glue on top of more glue. + Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Andras Barna (sartek) Feature #305888, revision 29 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. + #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) + +1 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) Feature #305888, revision 31 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32) Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations. What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel, new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a kernel setting? I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would still have OSS and Kernel 2.0. Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2. Not more and not less. #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. + #37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34) + From BZ: + I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you + mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does + still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they + er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with + PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has + good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA. + You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made + when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from + PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting + arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it. + Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so + many programs that depend on it. #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) +1 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: René Krell (renekrell) Feature #305888, revision 33 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32) Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations. What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel, new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a kernel setting? I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would still have OSS and Kernel 2.0. Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2. Not more and not less. #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. #37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34) From BZ: I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA. You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it. Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so many programs that depend on it. #38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37) Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course, a working one. Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point out the problems? Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say "it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the "+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it of old versions and distributions... These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel, PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it? #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) +1 + #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16) + Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio + routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its + features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't + know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet + independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable + resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the + discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts). + Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be + chosen on one place.... + But this project won't really suceed without the support of the + distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too + quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my + opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Segundo Luis Martín Díaz Sotomayor (zchronos) Feature #305888, revision 38 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Unknown User (fate_noreply) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32) Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations. What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel, new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a kernel setting? I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would still have OSS and Kernel 2.0. Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2. Not more and not less. #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. #37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34) From BZ: I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA. You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it. Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so many programs that depend on it. #38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37) Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course, a working one. Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point out the problems? Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say "it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the "+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it of old versions and distributions... These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel, PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it? #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) +1 #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16) Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts). Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be chosen on one place.... But this project won't really suceed without the support of the distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2. + #40: Segundo Luis Martín Díaz Sotomayor (zchronos) (2009-07-29 05:25: + 56) + -1 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Kristen McWilliam (Merrittkr) Feature #305888, revision 41 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Unknown User (fate_noreply) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32) Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations. What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel, new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a kernel setting? I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would still have OSS and Kernel 2.0. Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2. Not more and not less. #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. #37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34) From BZ: I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA. You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it. Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so many programs that depend on it. #38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37) Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course, a working one. Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point out the problems? Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say "it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the "+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it of old versions and distributions... These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel, PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it? #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) +1 #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16) Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts). Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be chosen on one place.... But this project won't really suceed without the support of the distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2. #40: Segundo Luis Martín Díaz Sotomayor (zchronos) (2009-07-29 05:25: 56) -1 #41: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-30 23:37:47) openSUSE is not a "bleeding edge" distro as fedora, openSUSE is a STABLE distro. After I installed openSUSE 11.1 I had many problems with sound. For example, every now and then there was on startup an error message from phonon and the system remained mute... until I killed pulse audio. Every now an then Skype was not able to use the sound system... until I killed pulse audio. ... After I completely uninstalled PA  everything was OK: no more sound problems. I understand those that say PA have potential, but this is not an excuse for an unestable system. People that wants to test unestable systems can use factory repos, and someone using factory repos by sure know how to install PA and play with it. + #42: Kristen McWilliam (merrittkr) (2009-08-22 17:44:58) + Until PulseAudio is MUCH improved, it should not be default. Constant + headaches. Remove pulse, headache is gone. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: M. S. (FunkyM) Feature #305888, revision 43 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Unknown User (fate_noreply) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32) Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations. What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel, new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a kernel setting? I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would still have OSS and Kernel 2.0. Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2. Not more and not less. #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. #37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34) From BZ: I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA. You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it. Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so many programs that depend on it. #38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37) Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course, a working one. Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point out the problems? Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say "it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the "+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it of old versions and distributions... These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel, PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it? #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) +1 #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16) Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts). Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be chosen on one place.... But this project won't really suceed without the support of the distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2. #40: Segundo Luis Martín Díaz Sotomayor (zchronos) (2009-07-29 05:25: 56) -1 #41: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-30 23:37:47) openSUSE is not a "bleeding edge" distro as fedora, openSUSE is a STABLE distro. After I installed openSUSE 11.1 I had many problems with sound. For example, every now and then there was on startup an error message from phonon and the system remained mute... until I killed pulse audio. Every now an then Skype was not able to use the sound system... until I killed pulse audio. ... After I completely uninstalled PA  everything was OK: no more sound problems. I understand those that say PA have potential, but this is not an excuse for an unestable system. People that wants to test unestable systems can use factory repos, and someone using factory repos by sure know how to install PA and play with it. #42: Kristen McWilliam (merrittkr) (2009-08-22 17:44:58) Until PulseAudio is MUCH improved, it should not be default. Constant headaches. Remove pulse, headache is gone. #43: Ralph Ulrich (ulenrich) (2009-08-23 15:29:47) (reply to #42) For me, using latest factory, kernel-desktop and kde4, pulseaudio is MUCH improved. I use it seemlessly now. But there was a showstopper I had to circumvent: Using alsa before I had disabled KMix Mainchannel but PCM as main. Changing to pulseaudio KMix muted the hidden Mainchannel. NO SOUND... until I found out to reenable KMix's default Mainchannel. + #44: M. S. (funkym) (2009-08-25 10:15:34) + When PA was "taken in" with 11.1 it was in bad shape. However, most of + the annoyances have been dealt with now, it is powerful and works fine + with almost everything for me now. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Malvern Star (Solaris444) Feature #305888, revision 45 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Unknown User (fate_noreply) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32) Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations. What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel, new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a kernel setting? I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would still have OSS and Kernel 2.0. Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2. Not more and not less. #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. #37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34) From BZ: I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA. You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it. Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so many programs that depend on it. #38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37) Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course, a working one. Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point out the problems? Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say "it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the "+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it of old versions and distributions... These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel, PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it? #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) +1 #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16) Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts). Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be chosen on one place.... But this project won't really suceed without the support of the distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2. #40: Segundo Luis Martín Díaz Sotomayor (zchronos) (2009-07-29 05:25: 56) -1 #41: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-30 23:37:47) openSUSE is not a "bleeding edge" distro as fedora, openSUSE is a STABLE distro. After I installed openSUSE 11.1 I had many problems with sound. For example, every now and then there was on startup an error message from phonon and the system remained mute... until I killed pulse audio. Every now an then Skype was not able to use the sound system... until I killed pulse audio. ... After I completely uninstalled PA  everything was OK: no more sound problems. I understand those that say PA have potential, but this is not an excuse for an unestable system. People that wants to test unestable systems can use factory repos, and someone using factory repos by sure know how to install PA and play with it. #42: Kristen McWilliam (merrittkr) (2009-08-22 17:44:58) Until PulseAudio is MUCH improved, it should not be default. Constant headaches. Remove pulse, headache is gone. #43: Ralph Ulrich (ulenrich) (2009-08-23 15:29:47) (reply to #42) For me, using latest factory, kernel-desktop and kde4, pulseaudio is MUCH improved. I use it seemlessly now. But there was a showstopper I had to circumvent: Using alsa before I had disabled KMix Mainchannel but PCM as main. Changing to pulseaudio KMix muted the hidden Mainchannel. NO SOUND... until I found out to reenable KMix's default Mainchannel. #44: M. S. (funkym) (2009-08-25 10:15:34) When PA was "taken in" with 11.1 it was in bad shape. However, most of the annoyances have been dealt with now, it is powerful and works fine with almost everything for me now. #45: André Braga (alsbraga) (2009-08-27 15:03:34) +1. I had a lot of trouble trying to keep using pulseaudio, but in the end it was impossible to have good sound. + #46: Malvern Star (solaris444) (2009-10-06 17:53:28) + Until the situation stabilises WRT pulseaudio, I tend to agree.  It + should be disabled by default.  OpenSuSE 11.2 Milestone 8 seems to have + this set by default. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888

Feature changed by: Lubos Lunak (llunak) Feature #305888, revision 47 Title: Disable PulseAudio by default openSUSE-11.2: Done Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Unknown User (fate_noreply) Description: PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums. As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2. This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box for many more users, just comment here. + The status for 11.2 is: PulseAudio is disabled by default in KDE (but + can be enabled) and enabled in GNOME (hard dependency, cannot be + disabled according to the GNOME team). Additionally PulseAudio has + improved since 11.1. So that's all there can be done for this feature + request. Relations: - Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511 Discussion: #1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19) +1 #2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25) You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list [1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE. 1| https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58) +1 #4: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-22 14:23:28) On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1. Bye, A. #5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39) +1 for me #6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03) +1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2) #7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08) Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug. Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community. Thanks. #8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01) I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on. Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting. #9: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:22:54) In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list. As a consequence I reopen it. Regards, A. #10: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 07:26:33) @Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-) #11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54) Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to join IRC just for this purpose.) The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect. If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME). So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. #12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)

So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional +1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it. It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is, and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it by default.

#13: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 10:07:28) Hi Takashi, the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes. I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means, but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features. I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it. Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides "the latest stack" for those who want/need it. The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what reported): - PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems too). Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I already spread it on IRC when I opened the request. P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome. After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :- ) Regards, Alberto #14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18) +1 at least, under kde is unuseful. #15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37) OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the decision is made. My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't. But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too. #16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09) no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2 #17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47) This is discussion about this enhancement request: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html #18: Unknown User (fate_noreply) (2009-02-23 13:21:34) FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their opinion and we can collect more feedback: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html A. #19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36) Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep pulseaudio? IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-) #20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13) for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it.. so +1 #21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22) Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on comment #2? https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here. "Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really really a lot." "Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so." "1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU. Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*. 2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c and src/modules/alsa-source.c." So why do our kernel suck so bad? #22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26) +1 #23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50) Takashi, If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio". #24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24) +1, for very large values of 1 ;-) #25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48) I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages. So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard. #26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43) +1 here to. #27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52) Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE reputation. #28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27) Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark "EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.... #29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10) If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae CONFIG_NO_HZ=y # CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set CONFIG_HZ_250=y # CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set # CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000 #30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29) Well you need to use -rt, tho. #31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30) I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace kernel. I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows: 1) what is kernel 2) that there is -rt kernel 3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management | search |install #32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43) If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should disable itself and say so prominently. Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party. The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21 #36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32) Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations. What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel, new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a kernel setting? I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would still have OSS and Kernel 2.0. Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2. Not more and not less. #33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47) Another useless glue on top of more glue. Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1 #34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26) Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the default kernel. That's my wish. I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST. There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time. #37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34) From BZ: I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA. You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it. Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so many programs that depend on it. #38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37) Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course, a working one. Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point out the problems? Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say "it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the "+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it of old versions and distributions... These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel, PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it? #35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51) +1 #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16) Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts). Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be chosen on one place.... But this project won't really suceed without the support of the distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2. #40: Segundo Luis Martín Díaz Sotomayor (zchronos) (2009-07-29 05:25: 56) -1 #41: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-30 23:37:47) openSUSE is not a "bleeding edge" distro as fedora, openSUSE is a STABLE distro. After I installed openSUSE 11.1 I had many problems with sound. For example, every now and then there was on startup an error message from phonon and the system remained mute... until I killed pulse audio. Every now an then Skype was not able to use the sound system... until I killed pulse audio. ... After I completely uninstalled PA  everything was OK: no more sound problems. I understand those that say PA have potential, but this is not an excuse for an unestable system. People that wants to test unestable systems can use factory repos, and someone using factory repos by sure know how to install PA and play with it. #42: Kristen McWilliam (merrittkr) (2009-08-22 17:44:58) Until PulseAudio is MUCH improved, it should not be default. Constant headaches. Remove pulse, headache is gone. #43: Ralph Ulrich (ulenrich) (2009-08-23 15:29:47) (reply to #42) For me, using latest factory, kernel-desktop and kde4, pulseaudio is MUCH improved. I use it seemlessly now. But there was a showstopper I had to circumvent: Using alsa before I had disabled KMix Mainchannel but PCM as main. Changing to pulseaudio KMix muted the hidden Mainchannel. NO SOUND... until I found out to reenable KMix's default Mainchannel. #44: M. S. (funkym) (2009-08-25 10:15:34) When PA was "taken in" with 11.1 it was in bad shape. However, most of the annoyances have been dealt with now, it is powerful and works fine with almost everything for me now. #45: André Braga (alsbraga) (2009-08-27 15:03:34) +1. I had a lot of trouble trying to keep using pulseaudio, but in the end it was impossible to have good sound. #46: Malvern Star (solaris444) (2009-10-06 17:53:28) Until the situation stabilises WRT pulseaudio, I tend to agree.  It should be disabled by default.  OpenSuSE 11.2 Milestone 8 seems to have this set by default. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/305888