Feature changed by: Tejas Guruswamy (MasterPatricko) Feature #308284, revision 38 Title: Ship openSUSE 11.2 openSUSE-11.2: New Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Stephan Kulow (coolo) Description: I consider Build 347 good enough to be GM. We should ship it! Of course there are plenty of bugs left unfixed, but IMO no-one that will cause major head ache to (most of) our users. Please consider! Discussion: #1: Stephan Kulow (coolo) (2009-11-03 14:07:00) If we do not ship now, we have to slip at least 2 weeks - otherwise the mirrors will not handle the load. #2: Atri Bhattacharya (badshah400) (2009-11-03 14:59:19) Just my opinion: why not we take the two weeks, try and fix the most important bugs among the ones already reported (with RC2) and ship it then? I know we can keep thinking like this for ever and then a release will never happen, but what I mean is if for some reason the release date is already slipping, we might as well make use of this time and fix some important bugs (reported on the Most Annoying Bugs in the wiki with RC2), rather than rush the release. #3: Stephan Kulow (coolo) (2009-11-03 15:18:08) (reply to #2) the release is not rushed. And with every fix included the chance to break something is there. So the question is: are we fine _now_ or do we want to release with another set of annoying bugs. #4: Stephan Kulow (coolo) (2009-11-03 15:19:01) (reply to #2) And: there are no two weeks. We need quite a while to feed the mirrors before we can go public. Not two full weeks, but at least 5 days. #5: Atri Bhattacharya (badshah400) (2009-11-03 15:26:35) To elaborate a little: the (installed) distribution itself is good at this point. There are problems with the installation media (for example: grub not recognising some other installed os - bug 548993, localisation files for myspell and openoffice in different languages being pulled from the internet on first run of yast - bug 551003, gdm related bug 551116, etc.). There is also lack of very important features in the software management module of yast-gtk (bug 551662) compared to yast-qt-pkg (features that were implemented for the qt interface late into the cycle), and at least one completed feature (showing orphaned packages - feature 551771) not at all working. I think it will be worth trying to fix the important bugs (like these) prior to release; more important than releasing quickly is to release as perfect an OS as possible imho. #6: Hendrik Vogelsang (hennevogel) (2009-11-03 15:29:14) The question about the bugs that are in the distro at this point is: What fixes have we ready or nearly ready by today and do they warrant the slipping. I wouldnt worry about the ones not fixed yet. They probably won't be in 5 days because developers expect the distribution to move on. #7: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-11-03 15:32:30) IHMO at least #548132 should be fixed, as it is on the DVD and it's not possible to fix it with an update. We did have some problems with the repair system on others releases (I'm not sure if it was 10.3 or 11.0) The other critical bugs can be fixed later (though I hope not to wait to 11.3 to have them fixed ;-) ) #8: Felix Miata (mrmazda) (2009-11-03 15:59:09) 8 months old http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483136 should have been fixed months ago, not in some future release. /dev/disk/by- id, /dev/disk/by-path & /dev/disk/by-uuid are all human unfriendly. /dev/disk/by-label is the only human friendly option, and shouldn't be released with such a glaring bug. The only reason I didn't push for a fix via mailing lists or bugzilla sooner is that 11.2 will already be skip-this-release-version-in-production-systems anyway due to KDE4 still too pathetic as a replacement for KDE3. #9: Gabriel Fróes Franco (isorehalav) (2009-11-03 16:15:47) I've been using 11.2 RC2 with KDE4 on my production environment since release without any major issues. All the basic functionalitties for a desktop user are working as expected (i.e. e-mail, browser, office, photo management, multimedia). I would say it is good for a GM baed on my experience with it so far. #10: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-11-03 16:52:11) that looks fine for me... there are just a couple of issues should be fix 1st) yast2 rdp requires xrdp but no xrdp package is available 2nd) grub not able to detect already installed linux installations the first can be fixed adding packages to OSS or removing yast2-rdp, the second one should be fixed before release a DVD #11: Birger Kollstrand (mrkane) (2009-11-03 17:27:22) I vote for releasing now. There are some issues left, but those are mostly non critical (like the disk name) or critical only to a minor user base(which always will be the case in a leading distro) We are running on 2 laptops, 2 mini laptops and 3 stationar/servers. All are performing well. They all have different HW, AMD, Intel and VIA processors and chipsets. They are actually performing better with this release than with 11.1 The mini laptops run noticeably better and KDE4 is a dream. #12: Max Heldt (max_heldt) (2009-11-03 17:42:29) I have web camera Creative Vista IM VF0420. Work opensuse 11.2 with my web camera? And I have notebook HP Compaq 6715b with wi-fi Broadcom Corporation BCM4312. Work opensuse 11.2 with this Wi-Fi adater and notebook? Thanks #13: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-11-03 17:53:53) I would agree to release now only if essential third party packages (packman, 3D video drivers KMP's) are ready and available using one- click. If not, wait, or you'll make quite some user complain. Just my two cents, Alberto #14: Russ Fineman (upscope) (2009-11-03 18:01:10) A delay of several weeks would be fine if the most annoying bugs could get fixed. What ships today is what we used to call Alpha or Beta in the past (40+ years of computer experience). This discourges new users that are used to MS. Konqueror continues to ramdomly crash with version 4.3.2, display of some websites is incorrect and the alternative FireFox is a big spyware package. Also Cannot delete imported HTML bookmard file except one at a time. The OS is fairly stable but Sound, Video and KDE 4.3.1 and .2 problems contine. #29: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) (2009-11-04 10:25:25) (reply to #14) Many of the most annoying bugs are fixed since RC1 and RC2 and will be in the final version. #15: Rastislav Krupansky (ra100) (2009-11-03 18:02:54) I feel free to wait a month, but there still exists a couple of bugs (global, not specific to hardware) that will cause head ache to users. Here you are the most annoying bugs, in my opinion. 537788 flash doesn't respond to mouse clicks 540482 ConsoleKit: restart fails to restart computer 548858 polkit-default-privs: Authentication is required ALWAYS to configure drive spindown timeout 543745 One-click install wizard not localized Guys please, take your time. I vote for against releasing now. #16: Matthias Fehring (buschmann23) (2009-11-03 18:03:18) I am using it since RC1 on two laptops and one desktop computer without any glitches. On all systems runs KDE 4 - and it is impressive. :) I am using it in this use cases: web browsing, email, video, music, package building, writing, communication... And all works fine. Great work! :) I vote absolute for release. The most left bugs can be solved through online updates, and I would say, that the great majority of the users will not notice them. To comment #12: I would say, that BCM4312 will work, see also here (http://www.linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/b43) . To comment #13: Packman is already building packages for 11.2 and the most important packages are ready. I think that the whole repository will be ready on November 12th. #18: Max Heldt (max_heldt) (2009-11-03 18:16:27) (reply to #16) Work web camera Creative Vista IM VF0420 in opensuse 11.2? Now use I opensuse 11.1 and all works fine. #20: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-11-03 18:30:10) (reply to #16) What about 3D drivers in KMP's? Because without them it is worse than without codecs IMHO. #17: Max Heldt (max_heldt) (2009-11-03 18:12:15) KDE 4.3.3 use in opensuse 11.2? #19: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-11-03 18:18:22) Hard to say. But installing tons of updates two days after the release give a very bad impression. So, how many fix are ready but to late for GM (if any..) ? How many bugs will be fixed postponing release one or two weeks ? In doubt, wait... #22: Cristian Rodríguez (elvigia) (2009-11-03 18:58:11) (reply to #19) I dont think so, a bad impression is generated when bugs do not get fixed, all OS vendors release tons of updates after release. #23: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-11-03 20:04:55) (reply to #22) I vote for both:) I really don't undetstand why we cannot wait one or two more weeks if this can help to get a better release. I'like to see a summery of open major/critical bugs. Oh well, I could search in bugzilla but searching in bugzilla is a nightmare :) #24: Cristian Rodríguez (elvigia) (2009-11-03 20:20:18) (reply to #23) You can see a good example of "let's wait till it is better" in Debian, it usually ends not releasing anything for years, what IMHO is needed here is to determine the real severity of certain bugs and act according. #26: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-11-03 22:12:52) (reply to #24) Well, not so better :) Sometimes tons of small bugs are worst then few big bugs. At this point, my roadmap would be: keep fixing bug until the end of the week then ship it with all ready fixes included. Severity rivisited giving to age and visibility a bit more priority. #30: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) (2009-11-04 10:34:20) (reply to #23) We already have a longer release phase than openSUSE 11.1. Everytime people ask for more time - and we enlarge it for the next release but I'm puzzled that this does not seem to help. Why can't we stick to a schedule? Or should we always enlarge it? #21: Thomas Meindl (tom1200) (2009-11-03 18:35:46) I'm using RC2 and I am very impressed with the system. It is way faster than 11.1, all the things I am used to are working perfectly. But as long as ther are some bugs that would require a remastering of the medias (e.g. Bug #548993 grub not recognising some other installed os ), I don't really think, that openSUSE 11.2 is ready for gold status. All other bugs can be solved later via update mechanism, and won't be a real problem (it is in the nature of things, that lots of them will show up on end-user systems). In my opinion openSUSE 11.2 is the absolute best release ever, it's a huge leap :) All of you have done a really great job! #25: Bernhard Wiedemann (bmwiedemann) (2009-11-03 21:24:45) Somehow I think that the real testing+fixing phase only began with RC1 - before things were so much in a flux. This just leaves approx 4 weeks for polishing which is not much for such a huge software collection. Of course, most of the software could be declared non-essential and be updated later. There are also some oddities left when using zypper dup from 11.1 (#551929) and other smaller issues here and there that I didn't have time to report. 11.2 is still feeling somewhat immature. It is said that "Windows XP and Vista only became usable with SP1". There will probably be no 11.2- SP1 but a 11.3 which will not have more polishing than 11.2 and thus have a comparable number of different issues. Testing experience shows that for every Critical bug found(and hopefully fixed) during the last 14 days, there are probably three other Critical bugs to be found later. Maybe there should be some method to decide if/which bugs to fix before GM like "Major-Critical P1-P3 bugs, with SHIP_STOPPER-check-flag with number of votes above 20". Of course it will still not be as bug- free as Debian/stable but most things come at a price. As for mirrors, I have always been a big fan of BitTorrent and let my 2 dedicated servers seed new openSUSE.iso.torrents. If my bittorrent seed comes or goes away, people will hardly notice, because the protocol is designed for serving partial files and spreading the load. #27: Max Heldt (max_heldt) (2009-11-04 06:59:15) Use KDE 4.3.3 in openSUSE 11.2? It was released 3 November. ;-) #28: Christian Jäger (eet) (2009-11-04 09:37:25) There's two things to consider IMHO On the one hand, in the light of a not-so-great Ubuntu release the bugs in 11.2 perhaps wouldn't meet as harsh a reception as it would under normal circumstances. On the other hand, this would be a great opportunity to shine with a really, really polished 11.2. It is not as if all previous openSUSE releases were so perfect; I recall some more serious problems; especially with ZMD. But it would be nice to see some serious dedication to quality for a change. Push back the release-date. #31: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-11-04 10:44:11) Since Milestone 8 I'm using 11.2 on my productive system and feel very comfortable with it. I don't see show stoppers. I do much more prefer fixing the known bugs via update instead of delaying the release. Especially as I experienced over the last years that a delay doesn't really help the quality but opens the door for new issues. #32: Andrew Joakimsen (joak0) (2009-11-04 12:39:32) 548132 is rather serious. I reported a similar issue I believe under 11.1 -- RAID 1 array is not detected by repair, now repair will treat each drive individually and damange the filesystem further? At the very least if it does not work support to repair a damanged RAID installation should be disabled as it was in 11.1. + #33: Tejas Guruswamy (masterpatricko) (2009-11-04 12:52:22) + Pushing back the release date does not mean a better release! + Show me open bug reports classified as show-stopper or we release, it + should be simple as that. + I'm just using the comments as an example but these mentions of + "somewhat immature" and "dedication to quality" mean absolutely + nothing, they are just "Oh I wish everything was perfect", of course + its not going to be perfect, and trying for absolute perfection will + mean we never release anything. + Pushing back the release date should only be done for very specific, + already identified show-stopper bugs with fixes almost ready. The fixes + should be put in, and NOTHING else changed, otherwise you invalidate + all the testing already done. + Otherwise you will end up needlessly delaying, making last-minute + changes that introduce new bugs, and causing no end of trouble. + From my point of view, I don't see any showstoppers once the system is + installed, but I haven't gone through the installation process since + MS7. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/308284