Feature changed by: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) Feature #306967, revision 112 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution. * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution. openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1 but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience. Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree. One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment. That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE. The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community. Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community. I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time. We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!". There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE. You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible. The same is true of KDE 3.5. Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible. I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE. If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this. I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas. I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD. Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two. I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros. Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that. For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome. For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material. That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though. The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related? Is Kubuntu a small distribution? Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix. Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible. While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something. A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities. Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question. The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies. And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less. See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome. And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop? I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request. User need a web browser. They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera. They want http content displayed. Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE. And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea. I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default. Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact. I don't agree it is. For advanced Linux users, maybe, But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive. If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine. If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too. But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices. Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is. I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE. In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works? Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user chose. + #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) + - 1 + Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with + (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my + question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two + DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative + for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of + Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the + mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss + many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push + users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967