Feature changed by: Michal Marek (michal-m) Feature #308936, revision 8 Title: Install defaults to Allow_Kernel_Updates=NO openSUSE-11.3: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Wilson Phillips (wilson_phillips) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: Make the install default with kernel updates off. Create a config file with a flag that can be turned on or off, that must be edited. Inside the file could be all the information needed for a newbie to do his/her own kernel update without hosing thier system. Instructions, links to forums, links to video card drivers, etc. Advanced users could easily edit the file and turn on kernel updates after the install, but new users would not be blind-sided with a kernel update that leaves them in panic mode staring at the command prompt login, and wondering why they had a desktop one minute and a reboot leaves their system broken. If a new user needs a kernel update, they can do a little research and find how to edit the file, by the time they do it, they should have all the information they need to make an informed decision and be prepared with the tools they need to bring their system back online properly. Business case (Partner benefit): openSUSE.org: We have lost too many new openSUSE users over the years because they did their updates and did not know that a kernel update would break their modules. Nothing causes more panic for a newbie than a reboot that leaves them stuck at the command line interface and wondering why their system is broken. Too many just do a format and reinstall of Windows and the last we hear of them is when they post on the forums that SUSE sucks. For us old techs, this is a small problem and we know how to fix it, but for the newbie, this is a deal breaker. We must change our way of looking at these small problems and how they affect the new inexperienced users. We can not overlook these issues. We have to make them a priority. How many new users could we keep, if they never had this problem? Food for thought. Discussion: #1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-02-03 14:23:53) Considering that openSUSE kernel updates are only for security patches, I think this is a bad idea. A proper solution to the real problem exposed here must come from other sites: the "fall-back driver" idea expressed on #308935 (308935) is one possibility, but getting the open source drivers on good shape is even better: most users do not need the full power of nvidia or ATI proprietary drivers, so making noveau and co. drivers ready will be the right solution for most, if not all, problems generated after kernel updates. #6: Wilson Phillips (wilson_phillips) (2010-02-04 02:50:40) (reply to #1) But what new user does not want desktop effects? They all want the eye candy. They get the proprietary drivers working and the next time a kernel updates they are left with an unworking system. Some of them come to the forums to ask for help, but many just "Format and Reinstall," and show up at the forums to make a post stating how bad we suck. The bad part is that they are right. openSUSE should never have left their system broken. This can be fixed and I know it can. It should have been fixed, but everyone wants someone else to do it. For years, the blame has been cast at nVidia and ATI, but we have to take resposibility too. For you and I, this is a molehill. We can easily fix a broken module and move beyond it in a few minutes, but for the newbies, this is a mountain in their way. If we want openSUSE to grow, we have to fix these little problems that turn new users away in frustration. #2: Michal Marek (michal-m) (2010-02-03 14:45:46) Drivers for nvidia and ati cards are provided as zypp repositories with KMPs (e.g. for 11.2: ftp://download.nvidia.com/opensuse/11.2/ and http://www2.ati.com/suse/11.2). This means that should there be an incompatible kernel update, users will be warned beforehand. Compatible updates will just reuse the module. So what group of users is this feature targeting? #5: Wilson Phillips (wilson_phillips) (2010-02-04 02:38:35) (reply to #2) But the new users are not warned. They don't know till their modules are broken and they are sitting there wondering what happened. I have volunteered my time in the forums since SuSE 9.1 and the story is always the same. + #7: Michal Marek (michal-m) (2010-02-04 14:12:36) (reply to #5) + Then the new users should be taught to use the KMPs that are made + available to them, instead of compiling stuff manually. At least for + ATI and NVIDIA, the drivers are available and yast offers to add the + repository during install, not sure how many other gfx cards with + proprietary drivers are out there. Leaving all users vulnerable can't + be meant as a serious answer. #3: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2010-02-04 00:05:01) Horrible idea, updates are done for security purposes for a reason. If your looking for a solution to modules breaking on a kernel update then suggest that opensuse starts using dkms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Kernel_Module_Support - #4: Wilson Phillips (wilson_phillips) (2010-02-04 02:35:19) (reply to #3) That was what I thought at first. Think about it a bit and it makes sense. As I said, this will not prevent anyone from applying kernel updates. During the install, the flag could be set by asking the user's expertise level. This is about keeping the new users and not having them leave out of frustration and thinking "SUSE sucks." This problem has been overlooked for years and we need to change the way we look at the simple issues that can be a deal breaker for the new inexperienced user. Please remember that most newbies have never even used the command line in Windows, yet one update can leave them at the command line login with no clue as to what got them there. This is a problem that should have been fixed a long time ago, but with more newbies trying Linux, we need to make it a priority. I am all for getting DKMS installed as well. This is to get the developers thinking about the best ways to handle the problem. After a bit of discussion in the forums, we all feel that it is fixable, but someone has to get the ball rolling before it will pick up some speed. That is why I volunteered to make the feature requests. Anyone could have done it, but no one had. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/308936