[opensuse-factory] Default browser: chromium?
Hi, Let the flamewar begin! No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested... In order to even start some process lets all vote in a poll for what is your default browser between the two (yes yes you can use the Vivaldi or even w3m, but honestly the chromium or ff are the two used by the majority of the people around). So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84 I will make the results hidden so people won't start to game the system too much and the results will be announced here at the beginning of the October. Cheers Tom
Hi! On 9/19/19 12:54 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Let the flamewar begin!
No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested...
I prefer Firefox for the very simple reason that Mozilla is easier to work with as an upstream than Google. Google is extremely difficult and basically if you fix a bug that doesn't concern anything they are using, they simply don't care. "What does this fix? Big-endian targets? Don't care, go away!" or they reinvent with things like "GN" where you need to download a complete x86_64 chroot to even build it which is, of course, not portable at all. Chromium might be open source, but it's Google's own project and not a community project. Adrian N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz píše v Čt 19. 09. 2019 v 11:01 +0000:
Hi!
On 9/19/19 12:54 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Let the flamewar begin!
No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested...
I prefer Firefox for the very simple reason that Mozilla is easier to work with as an upstream than Google. Google is extremely difficult and basically if you fix a bug that doesn't concern anything they are using, they simply don't care.
"What does this fix? Big-endian targets? Don't care, go away!"
or they reinvent with things like "GN" where you need to download a complete x86_64 chroot to even build it which is, of course, not portable at all.
Chromium might be open source, but it's Google's own project and not a community project.
Yea I don't honestly expect us to switch the default unless the poll fails really abysmally for the Firefox. But still it will allow me to figure out how much of the userbase is using the chromium and how much eye we should keep on it and how to test it. On current Tumbleweed with the pattern changes you can uninstall Firefox and keep just chromium, which is not the case for anything older (Thank you Simotek). Maybe I should poke people @SUSE too so we get votes from employees too. Cheers Tom
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 13:16:42 +0200, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz píše v Čt 19. 09. 2019 v 11:01 +0000:
Hi!
On 9/19/19 12:54 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Let the flamewar begin!
No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested...
I prefer Firefox for the very simple reason that Mozilla is easier to work with as an upstream than Google. Google is extremely difficult and basically if you fix a bug that doesn't concern anything they are using, they simply don't care.
"What does this fix? Big-endian targets? Don't care, go away!"
or they reinvent with things like "GN" where you need to download a complete x86_64 chroot to even build it which is, of course, not portable at all.
Chromium might be open source, but it's Google's own project and not a community project.
Yea I don't honestly expect us to switch the default unless the poll fails really abysmally for the Firefox.
But still it will allow me to figure out how much of the userbase is using the chromium and how much eye we should keep on it and how to test it.
On current Tumbleweed with the pattern changes you can uninstall Firefox and keep just chromium, which is not the case for anything older (Thank you Simotek).
Maybe I should poke people @SUSE too so we get votes from employees too.
perhaps you should even post this on opensuse@opensuse.org... Talking about _userbase_ on a mailing list purely dedicated to _development_ is most likely not going to be representative at all... Cheers. l8er manfred
On Thursday 2019-09-19 12:54, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84
Where's "Other"? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:09:21 +0200 (CEST), Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Thursday 2019-09-19 12:54, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84
Where's "Other"?
My thoughts exactly: 1. Opera Developer -- huge gap -- 2. Chromium 3. Vivaldi -- huge gap, quite often using a (perl) script instead of browser -- 4. Firefox I have these installed and available: brave chromium conkeror elinks epiphany falkon firefox google-chrome google-chrome-beta google-chrome-stable google-chrome-unstable iexplore konqueror leechcraft links lynx midori newmoon opera opera-beta opera-developer opera-stable otter-browser vivaldi vivaldi-snapshot w3m -- H.Merijn Brand http://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.31 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://useplaintext.email https://tux.nl http://www.test-smoke.org http://qa.perl.org http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/
On 9/19/19 8:39 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2019-09-19 12:54, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84
Where's "Other"?
He said in the email that he is only interested in changing the default, and that firefox and chromium are probably the only two options that you can justify as being the default. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Greetings. On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:30:36 +0930, Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
On 9/19/19 8:39 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2019-09-19 12:54, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84
Where's "Other"?
He said in the email that he is only interested in changing the default, and that firefox and chromium are probably the only two options that you can justify as being the default.
Then why is the actual question in the poll, "What browser am I using as the default on openSUSE machine"? My household has four machines running openSUSE and we don't use either of the two browsers he lists as the default. I'll take this post as my opportunity to submit "SeaMonkey" as my write-in vote. If someone were to instead ask me what browser *should* be the default for openSUSE, then I would argue against Chromium for the same reasons given by others in this thread. Regards, Tristan -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Tristan Miller Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist https://logological.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi, On 19.09.19 12:54, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
[...] lets all vote in a poll [...]
Sorry, but one question: Is this really the way to go? You don't like things, then start a vote (on some commercial external system), write an email to some mailing list and if - let's say 40 - people gave their vote, things need to change? I'm not going to support this way. Best wishes Holgi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 19.09.19 um 13:14 schrieb Holger Sickenberg:
Hi,
On 19.09.19 12:54, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
[...] lets all vote in a poll [...]
Sorry, but one question: Is this really the way to go?
You don't like things, then start a vote (on some commercial external system), write an email to some mailing list and if - let's say 40 - people gave their vote, things need to change?
I'm not going to support this way.
Tomas' mail was a little provactive, but still the latest glitch showed that chromium is not just yet another package. But before we take the extra effort to compile and test it in every staging project, I consider it fair to measure the impact. And +1 on mailing lists are a little noisy - so to me the question is not 'what is your default browser' but rather 'are you impacted by chromium being broken in TW snapshots'. And I don't think Firefox as default will go away - for political reasons already mentioned by others. Greetings, Stephan -- Lighten up, just enjoy life, smile more, laugh more, and don't get so worked up about things. Kenneth Branagh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 2019-09-19 12:54, schrieb Tomas Chvatal:
Hi,
Let the flamewar begin!
No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested...
In order to even start some process lets all vote in a poll for what is your default browser between the two (yes yes you can use the Vivaldi or even w3m, but honestly the chromium or ff are the two used by the majority of the people around).
So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84
I will make the results hidden so people won't start to game the system too much and the results will be announced here at the beginning of the October.
Cheers
Tom
I don't want use doodle. But i vote for firefox. -- Regards Eric -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 9/19/19 3:08 PM, Eric Schirra wrote:
Am 2019-09-19 12:54, schrieb Tomas Chvatal:
In order to even start some process lets all vote in a poll for what is your default browser between the two (yes yes you can use the Vivaldi or even w3m, but honestly the chromium or ff are the two used by the majority of the people around).
So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84
I don't want use doodle.
+1
But i vote for firefox.
+1 Ciao, Michael.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19/09/2019 12.54, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Hi,
Let the flamewar begin!
No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested...
In order to even start some process lets all vote in a poll for what is your default browser between the two (yes yes you can use the Vivaldi or even w3m, but honestly the chromium or ff are the two used by the majority of the people around).
So if I could get you to vote in my lovely poll: https://doodle.com/poll/nnn53kkryghdvc84
Er... why not use <https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/all>? The platform is working. Registration is the same as in Bugzilla.
I will make the results hidden so people won't start to game the system too much and the results will be announced here at the beginning of the October.
I will forward your post to the main mail list. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXYOlvAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1Y+VAJ9+QjzHt9AEfFcsjWfYbGGVFQ3vswCaAnDLfURnyXGXUb/ioy2/N80d1aQ= =vvf/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 17:58:52 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Er... why not use <https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/all>? The platform is working.
For various degrees of "working" ;-) connect.o.o polls caused quite some fun[tm] and delays on board elections some years ago by, for example, showing candidates twice and hiding others [1]. If we run the poll on connect.o.o, I wouldn't be surprised if w3m wins ;-) That's the reason why we switched to Helios to run the elections - but for the browser poll, Helios would be overkill and too difficult to use (you need to invite everybody to be able to vote) Therefore, a poll on forums.opensuse.org might be an option, or using a privacy-friendly doodle replacement like https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/ Regards, Christian Boltz [1] I'm not sure if someone ever found out why this happened (or even fixed it) - but IIRC it broke randomly, was therefore hard to debug, and is probably still broken -- <sarnold> the \0-based variants might screw up memcmp-based label comparisons <jjohansen> sarnold: explain why they work without it <sarnold> jjohansen: good point. [from #apparmor] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2019-09-19 19:58, Christian Boltz wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 17:58:52 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Er... why not use <https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/all>? The platform is working.
For various degrees of "working" ;-) connect.o.o polls caused quite some fun[tm] and delays on board elections some years ago by, for example, showing candidates twice and hiding others [1]. If we run the poll on connect.o.o, I wouldn't be surprised if w3m wins ;-)
That's the reason why we switched to Helios to run the elections - but for the browser poll, Helios would be overkill and too difficult to use (you need to invite everybody to be able to vote)
So the tooling sucks. Best I can remember, that never stopped openSUSE though, it only got better. zypp, OBS, OpenQA, ... maybe a votemanager is coming next? ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 9/20/19 5:55 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2019-09-19 19:58, Christian Boltz wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 17:58:52 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Er... why not use <https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/all>? The platform is working.
For various degrees of "working" ;-) connect.o.o polls caused quite some fun[tm] and delays on board elections some years ago by, for example, showing candidates twice and hiding others [1]. If we run the poll on connect.o.o, I wouldn't be surprised if w3m wins ;-)
That's the reason why we switched to Helios to run the elections - but for the browser poll, Helios would be overkill and too difficult to use (you need to invite everybody to be able to vote)
So the tooling sucks. Best I can remember, that never stopped openSUSE though, it only got better. zypp, OBS, OpenQA, ... maybe a votemanager is coming next? ;)
A membership list manager would be a more useful starting point -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19/09/2019 19.58, Christian Boltz wrote:
Hello,
Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 17:58:52 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Er... why not use <https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/all>? The platform is working.
For various degrees of "working" ;-) connect.o.o polls caused quite some fun[tm] and delays on board elections some years ago by, for example, showing candidates twice and hiding others [1]. If we run the poll on connect.o.o, I wouldn't be surprised if w3m wins ;-)
LOL!
That's the reason why we switched to Helios to run the elections - but for the browser poll, Helios would be overkill and too difficult to use (you need to invite everybody to be able to vote)
Therefore, a poll on forums.opensuse.org might be an option, or using a privacy-friendly doodle replacement like https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/
Ok! I understand :-) Thanks for explaining.
Regards,
Christian Boltz
[1] I'm not sure if someone ever found out why this happened (or even fixed it) - but IIRC it broke randomly, was therefore hard to debug, and is probably still broken
Probably is. I only clean out the spam on it, I don't understand the platform. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXYPwCwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1bhLAJ9dPe2LCURU3nZVOt0hHXhpv6VZZQCfRtzg69gxLaqCZvp4yGjouVwqb+8= =2hHg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 9/19/19 12:54 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested...
I'm not sure I understand the term "default" browser, and why we need a "this or that" discussion. I'm using both in parallel for different pages (with maybe a hundred of tabs open), and separated the pages logically there - and yes, some because still some pages don't work with the other browser. Admittedly, FF has more tabs, so I was forced to click for FF in the poll. But still, for me they are just sister tools which have both their strengths and weaknesses like awk vs. sed - so I'm always installing both of them. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 9/20/19 4:06 PM, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 9/19/19 12:54 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
No really I was now watching the people rightfully complaining I've sent a borked chromium to latest TW snapshot and was wondering how popular the browsers are and whether we should not set the chromium instead of firefox as default or to keep them both on the dvd tested...
I'm not sure I understand the term "default" browser, and why we need a "this or that" discussion.
Because to keep those who prefer systems with as few packages as possible happy we currently install one or the other by default, presently you will get firefox on a desktop system unless you choose chromium during the install process then you will get that. The question here is should we reverse that and install chromium unless a user wants firefox. Users can of course continue to choose to have both installed. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi all, Fun discussion aside the results are in :) There were 296 people voting and out of those 52 selected chromium as their default base. I could exclude bunch of votes that happened in a range of minutes with hashes instead of names but the content is IMO good as is and I am too lazy to really audit it. It translates to 20% of people around using chromium as default and means we should be testing it more. Now I should move myself to annoy release managers as I am about to make their day better by asking if we could put 100MB binary to the DVD for the openQA testing... Cheers and thanks a lot to all for voting TomN�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz píše v Út 01. 10. 2019 v 14:20 +0000:
On 10/1/19 4:06 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
There were 296 people voting and out of those 52 selected chromium as their default base.
What about the other 244 users?
Since it was 2 options vote take a darn wild guess. TomN�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�
Am 02.10.19 um 07:56 schrieb Timo Jyrinki:
Tomas Chvatal kirjoitti 1.10.2019 klo 17.26:
TomN�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩrg==
I'd really love someone decipher this mystery for me :D
The mailing list software is not able to handle email. It just appends the footer in plain text to e.g. base64 encoded email bodies. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Greetings. On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:20:46 +0000, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 10/1/19 4:06 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
There were 296 people voting and out of those 52 selected chromium as their default base.
What about the other 244 users?
And what about all the people who visited the poll but refused to cast a vote due to the deeply flawed methodology? (I'm speaking specifically about presenting users with a completely different question than the one they were expecting from the advertisement in this mailing list, and about forcing users to choose between a fixed set of two browsers.) I don't think there's anything we can or should infer from the results of this poll. Regards, Tristan -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Tristan Miller Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist https://logological.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Greetings.
On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:20:46 +0000, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 10/1/19 4:06 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
There were 296 people voting and out of those 52 selected chromium as their default base.
What about the other 244 users?
And what about all the people who visited the poll but refused to cast a vote due to the deeply flawed methodology? (I'm speaking specifically about presenting users with a completely different question than the one they were expecting from the advertisement in this mailing list, and about forcing users to choose between a fixed set of two browsers.) My understanding is that idea behind this poll was to figure out if
On Tue, 2019-10-01 at 16:36 +0200, Tristan Miller wrote: there is big enough minority of chromium users to justify more investment in its testing - and it seems that there is. How would a different question change the result? How would including other browsers affect the outcome? Who was forcing users to choose - did someone point a gun to your head and ask you to choose between chromium and firefox?
I don't think there's anything we can or should infer from the results of this poll.
Would you mind defining who is "we"? Or in other words, are you one of openSUSE release managers? Or one of people writing openQA tests for openSUSE:Factory? Or are you just one of people who under umbrella of "we" want to tell others what they should do or even what they are not allowed to do? Regards Martin
On 01/10/2019 17.07, Martin Pluskal wrote:
Greetings.
On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:20:46 +0000, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 10/1/19 4:06 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
There were 296 people voting and out of those 52 selected chromium as their default base.
What about the other 244 users?
And what about all the people who visited the poll but refused to cast a vote due to the deeply flawed methodology? (I'm speaking specifically about presenting users with a completely different question than the one they were expecting from the advertisement in this mailing list, and about forcing users to choose between a fixed set of two browsers.) My understanding is that idea behind this poll was to figure out if
On Tue, 2019-10-01 at 16:36 +0200, Tristan Miller wrote: there is big enough minority of chromium users to justify more investment in its testing - and it seems that there is.
That was not what I understood the poll was about. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
My understanding is that idea behind this poll was to figure out if there is big enough minority of chromium users to justify more investment in its testing - and it seems that there is.
That was not what I understood the poll was about.
Do you mean to say you would join the efforts if there was more evidence but the current poll does not convince you? I agree the poll wasn't great for the above purpose but it seems reasonable to assume the fraction of users who would welcome better integration of chromium as a browser choice in the installer is at least as high as the fraction of users who would want to see it as the default. If a new poll is to be made how about putting it to the actual users, e.g. via @opensuse on twitter? (In what way would we expect the subset of users to be biased in regard to browser choice?) Maybe "I use the chromium browser for {all|most|some|hardly any|none} of my web browsing under openSUSE". Furthermore, do users know what chromium is? I don't. I guess it is either a new name for the Google Chrome browser or a separate browser using open source components of the Chrome browser (and other parts). A poll should clarify this first. Joachim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/10/2019 12.09, Joachim Wagner wrote:
My understanding is that idea behind this poll was to figure out if there is big enough minority of chromium users to justify more investment in its testing - and it seems that there is.
That was not what I understood the poll was about.
Do you mean to say you would join the efforts if there was more evidence but the current poll does not convince you?
I said nothing like that. I thought it was about making a selector in YaST during installation, that would ask whether to install one or the other (or perhaps both), and that the proposed default would be chromium. And that perhaps the other one would not be in the DVD but downloaded from Internet, if the DVD got too big. That's what a subject like "Default browser: chromium?" means to me. And in that manner I have responded to the poll. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 11:09:08AM +0100, Joachim Wagner wrote:
Furthermore, do users know what chromium is? I don't. I guess it is either a new name for the Google Chrome browser or a separate browser using open source components of the Chrome browser (and other parts). A poll should clarify this first.
Spotted just yesterday, in the EDPS tool Website Evidence Collector's description: "The tool starts Chromium, i.e. a stripped down open source version of the Chrome browser,..." https://edps.europa.eu/press-publications/edps-inspection-software_en HTH, Daniel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
greetings. On Tue, 01 Oct 2019 17:07:12 +0200, Martin Pluskal <martin@pluskal.org> wrote:
My understanding is that idea behind this poll was to figure out if there is big enough minority of chromium users to justify more investment in its testing - and it seems that there is. How would a different question change the result?
A different question could have changed the results because asking what the user's current default is is not the same thing as asking what the user wants the distribution-wide default to be. It is possible for people to give different answers to those two questions. (For example, some people may use a particular browser because it is geared towards their own idiosyncratic needs, yet recognize that a more general-purpose browser would be a more sensible default for the general public.) It is also evident that some people declined to participate in the poll as a result of the mismatch in questions, which could have altered the distribution of the results.
How would including other browsers affect the outcome? Who was forcing users to choose - did someone point a gun to your head and ask you to choose between chromium and firefox?
Of course no one was forcing anyone to choose. But why are you so quick to disregard the preferences of those who were prevented from participating by the poll's false dichotomy?
I don't think there's anything we can or should infer from the results of this poll.
Would you mind defining who is "we"?
"We" means the community of openSUSE developers, contributors, and users, of which I am a longstanding member. I am not, at this moment, serving the project in the role of a release manager, but I think my opinion ought to count for something, especially since it was specifically solicited in this thread. I am all for reconsidering system defaults and preferences whenever there is a reasonable suspicion that this is warranted. And I am certainly open to members of the community gathering evidence in order to support or reject such suspicions. All I am objecting to in this particular case is the manner in which this evidence has been gathered, which I don't think was done rigorously enough to reach any conclusions. Regards, Tristan -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Tristan Miller Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist https://logological.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi,
-----Original Message----- From: Tomas Chvatal <TChvatal@suse.com> Sent: 01 October 2019 16:06 To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Default browser: chromium?
Hi all,
Fun discussion aside the results are in :)
There were 296 people voting and out of those 52 selected chromium as their default base.
I could exclude bunch of votes that happened in a range of minutes with hashes instead of names but the content is IMO good as is and I am too lazy to really audit it.
It translates to 20% of people around using chromium as default and means we should be testing it more.
Now I should move myself to annoy release managers as I am about to make their day better by asking if we could put 100MB binary to the DVD for the openQA testing...
No need to be on the DVD to be tested: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/1045366#step/chromium/22 Maybe you meant to be tested in staging? Guillaume
Cheers and thanks a lot to all for voting
TomN r y隊Z)z{. r + 맲 r z ^ ˬz N ( ֜ ^ ޭ隊Z)z{. r + 0 Ǩ
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Guillaume Gardet píše v Út 01. 10. 2019 v 14:21 +0000:
Now I should move myself to annoy release managers as I am about to make their day better by asking if we could put 100MB binary to the DVD for the openQA testing...
No need to be on the DVD to be tested: https://openqa.opensuse.org/te sts/1045366#step/chromium/22
Maybe you meant to be tested in staging?
Yea staging ring1 ends up on dvd I think as a whole. One of the major issues of openQA full run is too many red/oranges that are acceptable so it is quite easy to slip in, that is not the case on the core stuff. Tom
Hi all, Just an update for everyone. Piwik was updated (thank you Lars!) and I can now see the stats on what browsers are used. Those accessing opensuse.org are about 13% from Chromium, but from software.o.o, those numbers jump to about 43% using Chromium (at least for the past month). I hope this info is helpful. Let me know if you need more info. v/r Doug On 10/1/19 4:28 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Guillaume Gardet píše v Út 01. 10. 2019 v 14:21 +0000:
Now I should move myself to annoy release managers as I am about to make their day better by asking if we could put 100MB binary to the DVD for the openQA testing... No need to be on the DVD to be tested: https://openqa.opensuse.org/te sts/1045366#step/chromium/22
Maybe you meant to be tested in staging?
Yea staging ring1 ends up on dvd I think as a whole.
One of the major issues of openQA full run is too many red/oranges that are acceptable so it is quite easy to slip in, that is not the case on the core stuff.
TomN�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩrg==
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Am 07.01.20 um 08:28 schrieb ddemaio:
Hi all, Just an update for everyone. Piwik was updated (thank you Lars!) and I can now see the stats on what browsers are used. Those accessing opensuse.org are about 13% from Chromium, but from software.o.o, those numbers jump to about 43% using Chromium (at least for the past month). I hope this info is helpful. Let me know if you need more info. v/r Doug That's easily explained IMHO: software.o.o is only browsed from Windows to download the ISO for the initial system installation. ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.01.20 um 08:36 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
That's easily explained IMHO: software.o.o is only browsed from Windows to download the ISO for the initial system installation. ;-)
software.o.o also provides package search over all OBS repos: https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=firefox -- Dominik Heidler Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany Phone +49-911-74053-141 SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH GF: Felix Imendörffer (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) _________________________________________ ドミニク -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.01.20 um 10:27 schrieb Dominik Heidler:
Am 07.01.20 um 08:36 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
That's easily explained IMHO: software.o.o is only browsed from Windows to download the ISO for the initial system installation. ;-)
software.o.o also provides package search over all OBS repos: https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=firefox
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this. Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 14:40, Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 07.01.20 um 10:27 schrieb Dominik Heidler:
Am 07.01.20 um 08:36 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
That's easily explained IMHO: software.o.o is only browsed from Windows to download the ISO for the initial system installation. ;-)
software.o.o also provides package search over all OBS repos:
https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=firefox
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
Your version of a Linux user seems to be stuck in the 90s ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 7. Januar 2020, 14:46:51 CET schrieb Stasiek Michalski:
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 14:40, Stefan Seyfried
<stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 07.01.20 um 10:27 schrieb Dominik Heidler:
Am 07.01.20 um 08:36 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
That's easily explained IMHO: software.o.o is only browsed from
Windows to download the ISO for the initial system
installation. ;-)
software.o.o also provides package search over all OBS repos: https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=fir efox> Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
Your version of a Linux user seems to be stuck in the 90s ;)
No, he's referring to the sane part of it ;-) Seriously, it's a big compliment for zypper, being easily approachable while maintaining the most bang for your bucks, ähh, key strokes.. Lovin' it¹, Pete ¹) Even more, since: cat > /etc/bash_completion.d/zyp.sh << EOF . /etc/bash_completion.d/zypper.sh complete -F _zypper -o default zyp EOF alias zyp='LANG=C zypper -v' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
Your version of a Linux user seems to be stuck in the 90s ;)
Matomo, formerly Piwik, can show stats on the OS of visitors. If the number of Windows visitors is a lot lower than the number of Chromium users we can reject Stefan's explanation. Joachim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/7/20 3:27 PM, Joachim Wagner wrote:
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P Your version of a Linux user seems to be stuck in the 90s ;) Matomo, formerly Piwik, can show stats on the OS of visitors. If the number of Windows visitors is a lot lower than the number of Chromium users we can reject Stefan's explanation.
Joachim
Here is some stats regarding the same month for software.o.o. 54% Linux, 32% Windows, 8% Android, 4% Mac and ChromeOS 0.3%. There are a couple other ones making up a very small percent. Hope that helps. v/r Doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/7/20 2:46 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=firefox
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this. Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
Your version of a Linux user seems to be stuck in the 90s ;)
Why? IIRC ansible, puppet, chef, salt, etc. were not available or at least were not widely used in the 1990s. :-P Ciao, Michael. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.01.20 um 14:40 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
If the package they want to install is in a repo that is already added on their system. Otherwise there is the yast one click installer button for each pkg on that website - which will for sure not work on windows :P -- Dominik Heidler Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany Phone +49-911-74053-141 SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH GF: Felix Imendörffer (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) _________________________________________ ドミニク -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.01.20 um 16:07 schrieb Dominik Heidler:
Am 07.01.20 um 14:40 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
If the package they want to install is in a repo that is already added on their system.
read again what I suggested ;-) osc searches all of OBS. If it is searchable in software.o.o then it is also searchable with osc. BTW: all my mails in this subthread are of course tongue-in-cheek, just in case someone did not already guess... -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/01/2020 14.40, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Am 07.01.20 um 10:27 schrieb Dominik Heidler:
Am 07.01.20 um 08:36 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
That's easily explained IMHO: software.o.o is only browsed from Windows to download the ISO for the initial system installation. ;-)
software.o.o also provides package search over all OBS repos:
https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=firefox
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
No, we don't. I use the web search feature in the software page. I used webpin in the past. Then I use "zypper se" when I suspect it is in one of my repos, but I never use osc to search. A dev may use osc, but not a _user_. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 1/7/20 2:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 07/01/2020 14.40, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Am 07.01.20 um 10:27 schrieb Dominik Heidler:
Am 07.01.20 um 08:36 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
That's easily explained IMHO: software.o.o is only browsed from Windows to download the ISO for the initial system installation. ;-)
software.o.o also provides package search over all OBS repos:
https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=firefox
Yes, but again, only Windows users need this.
Linux users will just do "zypper in osc" and then "osc se -s ..." :-P
No, we don't. I use the web search feature in the software page. I used webpin in the past.
Then I use "zypper se" when I suspect it is in one of my repos, but I never use osc to search. A dev may use osc, but not a _user_.
I beg to differ with you Carlos on the use of 'osc se'. I use it quite often and find it far superior to 'zypper se' and better then webpin ever was. -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Jan 08 2020, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
I beg to differ with you Carlos on the use of 'osc se'. I use it quite often and find it far superior to 'zypper se' and better then webpin ever was.
The only downside is that it requires a build service account. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/01/2020 16.55, Andreas Schwab wrote: | On Jan 08 2020, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote: | |> I beg to differ with you Carlos on the use of 'osc se'. I use it |> quite often and find it far superior to 'zypper se' and better |> then webpin ever was. | | The only downside is that it requires a build service account. Exactly, and that classifies one as some kind of dev, not user. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXhcOTQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1d5/AKCW99n2WtEHdB+9C7fiNtnb/RyhEwCfX+QHVJslviXVNIoPZ6l8adhsYB4= =QXfP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/9/20 9:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/01/2020 16.55, Andreas Schwab wrote: | On Jan 08 2020, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote: | |> I beg to differ with you Carlos on the use of 'osc se'. I use it |> quite often and find it far superior to 'zypper se' and better |> then webpin ever was. | | The only downside is that it requires a build service account.
Exactly, and that classifies one as some kind of dev, not user.
Not really, as obs accounts are shared with bugzilla accounts. There are also plenty of users using the build service for the occasional thing. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
2019-10-01 17:06, Tomas Chvatal rašė:
It translates to 20% of people around using chromium as default and means we should be testing it more.
Hi, If you consider to allow to choose browser from installation medium in more visible manner, why not to ask about preferred browser during installation from DVD in dedicated panel? Like we ask about preferred desktop... P.S. +1 for Firefox to continue be default -- Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (27)
-
Andreas Schwab -
Bernhard Voelker -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Daniel Morris -
ddemaio -
Dominik Heidler -
Eric Schirra -
Guillaume Gardet -
H.Merijn Brand -
Hans-Peter Jansen -
Holger Sickenberg -
Jan Engelhardt -
Joachim Wagner -
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz -
Ken Schneider - Factory -
Manfred Hollstein -
Martin Pluskal -
Michael Ströder -
opensuse.lietuviu.kalba -
Simon Lees -
Stasiek Michalski -
Stefan Seyfried -
Stephan Kulow -
Timo Jyrinki -
Tomas Chvatal -
Tristan Miller