[opensuse-factory] RFC: do we want all locales?

Stephan Kulow

11 Jan 2011 11 Jan '11

09:22

Hi, I have this bug assigned to me about missing locales: bug 659001. The bug is basically that some GNOME applications have translations for locales that we lack otherwise and so the GNOME packages have to handle them separately. The bug itself would be easy to fix, but I wonder if it's a good idea to package all locales existant or if we shouldn't limit ourselves somewhere. I mean, I have no good measure where this limit should be, but I feel that it's not wise to package all files in existance. Take e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language (from the bug report it's in gnome-do and transmission). It has 1.85 Million total speakers and 5 dialects. It's impossible to know how many of those use computers regularly and how many of those would use linux (at least one of them translated GNOME though). But the main problem I see is: just having gnome-do won't help anyone to use the computer in the native language. So I would think that we don't gain much user experience but make the installs larger for everyone. So I would suggest that we introduce a macro that removes all languages not in filesystems, so we can still add new languages if the cost/benefit ratio exceeds a limit. What do you think? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

Richard Guenther

11 Jan 11 Jan

09:55

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

I have this bug assigned to me about missing locales: bug 659001. The bug is basically that some GNOME applications have translations for locales that we lack otherwise and so the GNOME packages have to handle them separately.

The bug itself would be easy to fix, but I wonder if it's a good idea to package all locales existant or if we shouldn't limit ourselves somewhere. I mean, I have no good measure where this limit should be, but I feel that it's not wise to package all files in existance.

Take e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language (from the bug report it's in gnome-do and transmission). It has 1.85 Million total speakers and 5 dialects. It's impossible to know how many of those use computers regularly and how many of those would use linux (at least one of them translated GNOME though). But the main problem I see is: just having gnome-do won't help anyone to use the computer in the native language. So I would think that we don't gain much user experience but make the installs larger for everyone.

So I would suggest that we introduce a macro that removes all languages not in filesystems, so we can still add new languages if the cost/benefit ratio exceeds a limit.

What do you think?

Why not create a set of configured locales at install time and allow users to configure additional ones if they need them? (-> Debian) Richard. -- Richard Guenther Novell / SUSE Labs SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nuernberg - AG Nuernberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

10:04

Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2011 schrieb Richard Guenther:

...

Why not create a set of configured locales at install time and allow users to configure additional ones if they need them? (-> Debian)

You're talking about lib/locale, I'm talking about translations packaged. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

10:13

Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 10:22 +0100, Stephan Kulow a écrit :

...

Hi,

I have this bug assigned to me about missing locales: bug 659001. The bug is basically that some GNOME applications have translations for locales that we lack otherwise and so the GNOME packages have to handle them separately.

The bug itself would be easy to fix, but I wonder if it's a good idea to package all locales existant or if we shouldn't limit ourselves somewhere. I mean, I have no good measure where this limit should be, but I feel that it's not wise to package all files in existance.

To help people give an opinion: what is the issue with packaging all translations? Is it because it takes space in packages, on mirrors, on users' hard disks? Is it simply a feeling that the translations are not that useful if it's just a few apps that are translated in this language? (you seemed to imply the latter) If people are using openSUSE and contributing translations, they probably would prefer to keep the translations, especially if they're in the process of translating more and more things. I don't know if we have such users, but by removing such translations, we'll be sure we won't have any ;-) Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

10:40

Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2011 schrieb Vincent Untz:

...

Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 10:22 +0100, Stephan Kulow a écrit :

...
Hi,

I have this bug assigned to me about missing locales: bug 659001. The bug is basically that some GNOME applications have translations for locales that we lack otherwise and so the GNOME packages have to handle them separately.

The bug itself would be easy to fix, but I wonder if it's a good idea to package all locales existant or if we shouldn't limit ourselves somewhere. I mean, I have no good measure where this limit should be, but I feel that it's not wise to package all files in existance.

To help people give an opinion: what is the issue with packaging all translations? Is it because it takes space in packages, on mirrors, on users' hard disks? Is it simply a feeling that the translations are not that useful if it's just a few apps that are translated in this language?

(you seemed to imply the latter)

If people are using openSUSE and contributing translations, they probably would prefer to keep the translations, especially if they're in the process of translating more and more things. I don't know if we have such users, but by removing such translations, we'll be sure we won't have any ;-)

KDE has a limit, if a team manages to translate more than 80% of KDE essential; it will be released - till then you can get the language from SVN/Git. Take gnome-do/tyv.po - you want to package it and I ask about the usefulness of having the file in the filesystem: coolo@desdemona#po>LC_ALL=C msgfmt --statistics tyv.po 1 translated message, 155 untranslated messages. "Last-Translator: boracasli <Unknown>\n" We may want to collect such mo files in some contrib-translations package perhaps instead of simply removing them. For this we would need build service support like we collect now .desktop files translations. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Michal Marek

12:02

On 11.1.2011 11:13, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

If people are using openSUSE and contributing translations, they probably would prefer to keep the translations, especially if they're in the process of translating more and more things. I don't know if we have such users, but by removing such translations, we'll be sure we won't have any ;-)

Would you accept _every_ new wallpaper or icon contributed by a user? I think that if someone really wants to translate gnome, they will accept some reasonable rules, e.g. what and to what extent should be translated to become part of Factory, how much needs to be added to become part of the DVD, and so on. Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

12:10

Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 13:02 +0100, Michal Marek a écrit :

...

On 11.1.2011 11:13, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
If people are using openSUSE and contributing translations, they probably would prefer to keep the translations, especially if they're in the process of translating more and more things. I don't know if we have such users, but by removing such translations, we'll be sure we won't have any ;-)

Would you accept _every_ new wallpaper or icon contributed by a user? I think that if someone really wants to translate gnome, they will accept some reasonable rules, e.g. what and to what extent should be translated to become part of Factory, how much needs to be added to become part of the DVD, and so on.

I'd accept all wallpapers shipped by an upstream that we package. I'm not saying we should keep all those translations. I'm merely asking what's hurting in shipping them. It does sound reasonable to not ship the ones that are clearly incomplete, but I don't see any real benefit in doing so. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

15:04

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote:

...

I'd accept all wallpapers shipped by an upstream that we package.

Come on. We don't even ship all screensavers from xscreensaver (at least it was like that the last time I looked). -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

15:28

Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 16:04 +0100, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :

...

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote:

...
I'd accept all wallpapers shipped by an upstream that we package.

Come on. We don't even ship all screensavers from xscreensaver (at least it was like that the last time I looked).

I know we ship a default set of screensavers, and move a lot of others in a extra package that is not installed by default. But I don't know if there are any we don't ship (except webcollage, but that's because we don't want random images to appear on the screen). If this is the case, I don't know why we couldn't ship them in the extra package. Again, I'm just asking: what's the benefit? If you tell me "we don't have enough space for this" or "the quality is too low", then I'll be happy to hear that. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

15:37

...

Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 16:04 +0100, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :

...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100

Vincent Untz wrote:

...
I'd accept all wallpapers shipped by an upstream that we package.

Come on. We don't even ship all screensavers from xscreensaver (at least it was like that the last time I looked).

I know we ship a default set of screensavers, and move a lot of others in a extra package that is not installed by default. But I don't know if there are any we don't ship (except webcollage, but that's because we don't want random images to appear on the screen). If this is the case, I don't know why we couldn't ship them in the extra package.

Again, I'm just asking: what's the benefit? If you tell me "we don't have enough space for this" or "the quality is too low", then I'll be happy to hear that. My fear here really is that we collect files because we can. Collecting

Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2011 schrieb Vincent Untz: translations into a contrib-catch-them-all sounds like a good plan actually if it was possible to implement it. So we could limit the default languages to say 60 most often used and have solution ready for the others. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

15:48

Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 16:37 +0100, Stephan Kulow a écrit :

...

...
Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 16:04 +0100, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :

...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100

Vincent Untz wrote:

...
I'd accept all wallpapers shipped by an upstream that we package.

Come on. We don't even ship all screensavers from xscreensaver (at least it was like that the last time I looked).

I know we ship a default set of screensavers, and move a lot of others in a extra package that is not installed by default. But I don't know if there are any we don't ship (except webcollage, but that's because we don't want random images to appear on the screen). If this is the case, I don't know why we couldn't ship them in the extra package.

Again, I'm just asking: what's the benefit? If you tell me "we don't have enough space for this" or "the quality is too low", then I'll be happy to hear that. My fear here really is that we collect files because we can. Collecting

Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2011 schrieb Vincent Untz: translations into a contrib-catch-them-all sounds like a good plan actually if it was possible to implement it. So we could limit the default languages to say 60 most often used and have solution ready for the others.

Isn't that what we do with bundle-lang-other? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Karsten König

15:44

Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2011, 16:28:42 schrieb Vincent Untz:

...

Le mardi 11 janvier 2011, à 16:04 +0100, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :

...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100

Vincent Untz wrote:

...
I'd accept all wallpapers shipped by an upstream that we package.

Come on. We don't even ship all screensavers from xscreensaver (at least it was like that the last time I looked).

I know we ship a default set of screensavers, and move a lot of others in a extra package that is not installed by default. But I don't know if there are any we don't ship (except webcollage, but that's because we don't want random images to appear on the screen). If this is the case, I don't know why we couldn't ship them in the extra package.

Again, I'm just asking: what's the benefit? If you tell me "we don't have enough space for this" or "the quality is too low", then I'll be happy to hear that.

Vincent

I think for a polished distribution we can't 'promise' a localization which turns out has only 5% of the strings translated. The KDE 80% border sounds reasonable to me, but everything else sounds like it is just for enthuthiasts and should be marked as such. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

19:32

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:28:42 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote:

...

...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote: (except webcollage

Exactly. And it's not taking up lots of space. And its not because "we" don't want it, but because Novell legal said it must be removed. For no good reason IMHO. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

20:05

On Jan 11, 11 20:32:39 +0100, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:28:42 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote:

...
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote: (except webcollage

Exactly. And it's not taking up lots of space. And its not because "we" don't want it, but because Novell legal said it must be removed. For no good reason IMHO.

Did we? ("we" as in 'legal team') Wasn't webcollage that screensaver that would bring up some random porn site, whenever my boss walks up to my desk while I am away? That would not actually be a *Legal* issue, I remember this to be a management demand. But I have to admit that I appreciate not having that particular screensaver. :-) cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

12 Jan 12 Jan

18:56

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 21:05:39 +0100 Juergen Weigert wrote:

...

On Jan 11, 11 20:32:39 +0100, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:28:42 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote:

...
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote: (except webcollage

Exactly. And it's not taking up lots of space. And its not because "we" don't want it, but because Novell legal said it must be removed. For no good reason IMHO.

Did we? ("we" as in 'legal team')

Wasn't webcollage that screensaver that would bring up some random porn site, whenever my boss walks up to my desk while I am away?

Exactly :-)

...

That would not actually be a *Legal* issue, I remember this to be a management demand.

Oh yes, you are right. Sorry for assuming it was Novell legal spoiling the fun. It was Novell management, indeed.

...

But I have to admit that I appreciate not having that particular screensaver. :-)

Nobody ever forced anyone to enable it. And it was of course not automatically selected, even if xscreensaver was in "random" mode. But fortunately, thanks to the Build Service, it is possible to build an uncensored xscreensaver package. Should appear soon. ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

13 Jan 13 Jan

10:35

Am Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2011 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

...

Nobody ever forced anyone to enable it. And it was of course not automatically selected, even if xscreensaver was in "random" mode.

But fortunately, thanks to the Build Service, it is possible to build an uncensored xscreensaver package. Should appear soon. ;-)

BTW: the porn pic cproblem is much, much smaller than it used to, because of two factory: - the "safe" filters of the search enginees improved a lot - the internet changed since 2003 and has way more pictures of dressed people than it used to have :) But if you want to check: http://www.jwz.org/webcollage/ has a live view. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

11 Jan 11 Jan

20:52

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:28:42 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote:

...
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote: (except webcollage

Exactly. And it's not taking up lots of space. And its not because "we" don't want it, but because Novell legal said it must be removed. For no good reason IMHO.

I wonder if pt_PT was also removed by the same reasons ;) As rpmlint warns that pt_PT isn't supported. I'm pretty sure that the official pt_PT speakers are at least over 50 millions and that's one of the most spoken languages in world (nativelly). NM

...

-- Stefan Seyfried

"Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- nelson marques nmo.marques@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti

20:54

2011/1/11 Nelson Marques :

...

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:28:42 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote:

...
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:10:26 +0100 Vincent Untz wrote: (except webcollage

Exactly. And it's not taking up lots of space. And its not because "we" don't want it, but because Novell legal said it must be removed. For no good reason IMHO.

I wonder if pt_PT was also removed by the same reasons ;) As rpmlint warns that pt_PT isn't supported. I'm pretty sure that the official pt_PT speakers are at least over 50 millions and that's one of the most spoken languages in world (nativelly).

NM

Thats because pt_PT does'nt exist. Its just pt and pt_BR (its variant) Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Karl Eichwalder

12 Jan 12 Jan

09:54

Stephan Kulow writes:

...

What do you think?

I'd ship those languages only, that native speakers are also used read. E.g., people in Bavaria (de_DE@bavarian?) (or Austria, de_AT@bavarian) are not used to read the Bavarian flavor of the German language in daily life (newspapers, advertisments, sub-titles, etc. are usually not localized besides for special reason...). I think this also applies for all the other German based languages, at least in Europe. It would make sense to provide special Bavarian/Austrian translations, that just override some words or phrases (J(e|ä)nner instead of Januar; Fritatensuppe instead of Pfannkuchensuppe; Grüß Gott instead of Guten Tag; etc.) without introducing the sound of the spoken language (dialect). Thus, providing nds (plattdeutsch) or gsw/swg (alemannisch) as written locales are only useful for akademical purposes. Thses languages are widely spoken, but people are not used to read them. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

09:59

Am Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2011 schrieb Karl Eichwalder:

...

Thus, providing nds (plattdeutsch) or gsw/swg (alemannisch) as written locales are only useful for akademical purposes. Thses languages are widely spoken, but people are not used to read them. For plattdeutsch I disagree. The daily columns in the Emder Zeitung are written in native language and I suggest you take a look at http://amzn.to/i9dkh7

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

10:09

Am Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2011 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

Am Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2011 schrieb Karl Eichwalder:

...
Thus, providing nds (plattdeutsch) or gsw/swg (alemannisch) as written locales are only useful for akademical purposes. Thses languages are widely spoken, but people are not used to read them.

For plattdeutsch I disagree. The daily columns in the Emder Zeitung are written in native language and I suggest you take a look at http://amzn.to/i9dkh7

BTW: if a language has its own actively maintainer wikipedia instance, I would say it's fair to ship it: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_vun_Linux-Distributschonen Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Karl Eichwalder

12:44

Stephan Kulow writes:

...

...
For plattdeutsch I disagree. The daily columns in the Emder Zeitung are written in native language and I suggest you take a look at http://amzn.to/i9dkh7

Maybe, Plattdeutsch is a arguable, and people are actually familiar with it as a written language.

...

BTW: if a language has its own actively maintainer wikipedia instance, I would say it's fair to ship it:

http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_vun_Linux-Distributschonen

I probably will not hurt to ship it and similar cases. I would be interesting to know, which of our localizations are actually in use or which are desparately wanted by users. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

4852

Age (days ago)

4854

Last active (days ago)

List overview

Download

21 comments

10 participants

participants (10)

Juergen Weigert
Karl Eichwalder
Karsten König
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti
Michal Marek
Nelson Marques
Richard Guenther
Stefan Seyfried
Stephan Kulow
Vincent Untz