[opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse] General Poor quality of Opensuse
Peter Nikolic wrote:
The sound system is a total mess this pulseaudio thing is what nothing more than a total blight on the system there needs to be a choice for users risk pulseaudio or can that and run safe Alsa sound system . I know you are going to say Alsa doesn't do this or that but unlike pulseaudio it never failed to work it never chopped the audio
Beagle ! what a total pain and complete resource hog once again it needs to be a LOT easier to un-install or not install at all With the requisite warning for those that do install it beware it will hog your CPU for excessive amounts of time , Likewise Nepomuk .
Pete . I feel you pain. As a long time user of suse the QC has indeed gone down recently with the forcing of developing projects that are not ready for primetime. It still boggles my mind how much openfate has turned out to be nothing more then service put up for people to vent and project leaders/developers to ignore. These are some of the top issues on it and we are already nearing base system freeze and they have been ignored. Both Pulse and Beagle have been nothing but a royal pain in the ass since introduction. The dropping of KDE 3 was a bad one too for 11.2. Sure you will get the "Well just install it from the build service" replies, but guess what, there has been no way I have been able to find that actually allow a WORKING kde 3 install on the 11.2's. Oh well it's making for a good article on the state of openSUSE for a prominent linux site. Dean Hilkewich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag 11 Juli 2009 schrieb Dean Hilkewich:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
The sound system is a total mess this pulseaudio thing is what nothing more than a total blight on the system there needs to be a choice for users risk pulseaudio or can that and run safe Alsa sound system . I know you are going to say Alsa doesn't do this or that but unlike pulseaudio it never failed to work it never chopped the audio
Beagle ! what a total pain and complete resource hog once again it needs to be a LOT easier to un-install or not install at all With the requisite warning for those that do install it beware it will hog your CPU for excessive amounts of time , Likewise Nepomuk .
Pete .
I feel you pain. As a long time user of suse the QC has indeed gone down recently with the forcing of developing projects that are not ready for primetime. It still boggles my mind how much openfate has turned out to be nothing more then service put up for people to vent and project leaders/developers to ignore. These are some of the top issues
openfate was never meant to be a miracle, but to open Novell's processes both for input and for output. If you can't take that Novell only implements a dozen features, then openfate is there to grab the rest. Just write in a comment that you work on it (preferably with the devel project you maintain it in) and it's done. In former times you could only guess which features were there and which are worked on, now you know. Of course for some the knowledge of having _their_ features being "ignored" by the community in large is frustrating, but so it is. The drop of KDE 3 is a very good example. Once in a while someone comes around arguing that dropping KDE 3 is a bad idea and KDE4 is much worse, ... - if invited to maintain KDE:KDE3 -> silence. Sure some features need to be done by it's maintainers, e.g. disabling beagle by default is done easily by everyone but still the maintainers should be convinced by arguments not by one line patches. Same goes for pulseaudio and the like. I don't have any sound problems on factory though, so I wonder why pulseaudio is still a problem to some. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 13 Jul 2009 09:54:40 Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Samstag 11 Juli 2009 schrieb Dean Hilkewich:
The drop of KDE 3 is a very good example. Once in a while someone comes around arguing that dropping KDE 3 is a bad idea and KDE4 is much worse, ... - if invited to maintain KDE:KDE3 -> silence.
Unfortunately a lot of us are not programmers so cant maintain stuff other than very rudementry stuff . That said it does not take away the fact that the dropping of KDE3 was a bad bad move IF KDE4 had been released in a somewhat more user friendly condition then maybe the reception may not have been quite as hostile as it was . As i had said right form the start the method of release was wrong . That said KDE4 i just about starting to show usefull but still lots of gripes one being the lack of clear info on what repos are and are not needed to update to the latest KDE4.3 (that one is still bugging the life out of me) how when you ask a simple question can someone find so many ways to wriggle out of giving a direct answer it beats me he must be an MP .
Sure some features need to be done by it's maintainers, e.g. disabling beagle by default is done easily by everyone but still the maintainers should be convinced by arguments not by one line patches. Same goes for pulseaudio and the like. I don't have any sound problems on factory though, so I wonder why pulseaudio is still a problem to some.
Greetings, Stephan
Do you not think that some of these so called features should maybe have NOT been included to start with when they were/are so bug ridden . You would think someone would install and run the stuff to check thru it before actually sticking it out for release (all be it a strangley named Alpha release) there should still be a certain amount of QA carried out to check that the stuff actually meets reasonable standards of reliability and usability Pete .
Am Montag 13 Juli 2009 schrieb Peter Nikolic:
Do you not think that some of these so called features should maybe have NOT been included to start with when they were/are so bug ridden .
You would think someone would install and run the stuff to check thru it before actually sticking it out for release (all be it a strangley named Alpha release) there should still be a certain amount of QA carried out to check that the stuff actually meets reasonable standards of reliability and usability
It's called factory, we publish that tree on a regular base. You're invited to test them - even the live cds are just copied away for release. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 13 Juli 2009 schrieb Peter Nikolic:
Do you not think that some of these so called features should maybe have NOT been included to start with when they were/are so bug ridden .
You would think someone would install and run the stuff to check thru it before actually sticking it out for release (all be it a strangley named Alpha release) there should still be a certain amount of QA carried out to check that the stuff actually meets reasonable standards of reliability and usability
It's called factory, we publish that tree on a regular base. You're invited to test them - even the live cds are just copied away for release.
Greetings, Stephan Duhhhhhh so you are now saying that the various releases are in fact factory ok so why is there also a factory that is different to the MS releases Duuuhhhh
On Monday 13 Jul 2009 16:01:25 Stephan Kulow wrote: think the logic is a little screwey here somehow you cant have 2 factories and both be different so someone need to make their mind up are the MS releases in fact Alpha releases or are the just another name for the pre existing Factory release that are granted regulary rebuilt but the MS releases are not so HUmmmmmmm maybe there is a bit of re thinking needed Pete .
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Peter
Nikolic
so you are now saying that the various releases are in fact factory ok so why is there also a factory that is different to the MS releases Duuuhhhh think the logic is a little screwey here somehow you cant have 2 factories and both be different so someone need to make their mind up are the MS releases in fact Alpha releases or are the just another name for the pre existing Factory release that are granted regulary rebuilt but the MS releases are not so HUmmmmmmm maybe there is a bit of re thinking needed
A Milestone(Or Alpha/Beta is basically a snapshot of Factory at a specific time. Factory is basically a rolling release with new versions of packages updated constantly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Don't feed the troll. In another mail Pete states that he did all this due
to a lost HD. That didn't work out as he expected. While he mentions
a few things that are correct, he obviously doesn't know much about the
openSUSE dvelopment process (mixing MS with RC, doesn't know the relation
of MS and factory and so forth).
So please let me ask everyone again: Please let this thread die or at least
do not answer to this list - the author is mostly venting his frustation
about hardware trouble....
Ciao
Joerg
--
Joerg Mayer
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Joerg Mayer
Don't feed the troll. In another mail Pete states that he did all this due to a lost HD. That didn't work out as he expected. While he mentions a few things that are correct, he obviously doesn't know much about the openSUSE dvelopment process (mixing MS with RC, doesn't know the relation of MS and factory and so forth). So please let me ask everyone again: Please let this thread die or at least do not answer to this list - the author is mostly venting his frustation about hardware trouble....
Actually, it's the same thread. Someone's crappy mail program broke it into 2 threads by adding a re: And, his points are valid. He wanted to use the new stuff, and found that they are less suitable for him than what he was using. The reasons are irrellavent. His complaints are valid to a number of us, even if we are in the minority. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 Jul 2009 13:30:19 Joerg Mayer wrote:
Don't feed the troll. In another mail Pete states that he did all this due to a lost HD. That didn't work out as he expected. While he mentions a few things that are correct, he obviously doesn't know much about the openSUSE dvelopment process (mixing MS with RC, doesn't know the relation of MS and factory and so forth). So please let me ask everyone again: Please let this thread die or at least do not answer to this list - the author is mostly venting his frustation about hardware trouble....
Ciao Joerg Oh Aye well see .. you not making much sense yourself either in fact i dunno where you got that from but WRONG WRONG ..
Try again why don't you and venting about hardware now your talking out of some rear end somewhere . Pete .
Hi, guys, stop this tone or there will be consequences. I will not tolerate insults on this list. Henne -- ml-admin http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 Jul 2009 16:11:55 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
guys, stop this tone or there will be consequences. I will not tolerate insults on this list.
Henne Hi sorry bout that but he had it comming
Pete .
Peter Nikolic wrote:
As i had said right form the start the method of release was wrong .
That's a decision of the KDE team and with KDE3 not being maintained much any more, openSUSE can only follow the lead of that KDE team. Take any KDE release decisions up with the KDE team, please, and not with the openSUSE team that can't do much about them (and no, shipping a basically unmaintained release branch isn't an option, but I guess the openSUSE managers would be willing to discuss if you can organize permanently ongoing maintenance of the KDE3 branch, and esp. their OBS packages).
Do you not think that some of these so called features should maybe have NOT been included to start with when they were/are so bug ridden .
Factory isn't there for not taking new stuff and being stable as a rock, it's there for getting the development code to a number of people who can go and test them, so that exactly those problems can be found, reported and fixed before shipping a final openSUSE release. And the milestones are not releases, they are just checkpoints in the development of the next release, AFAIK they undergo no testing other than the whole collection of packages included does actually build and probably that all package dependencies can be satisfied (which isn't even guaranteed in normal Factory, as development code can't guarantee anything). Factory is basically what "nightly builds" are here at Mozilla, just snapshots of development, made available for testing, but without much testing before they are made available. At SeaMonkey, we warn people "that nightly builds are development software, and there is no guarantee that they won't fry your processor, insult your mother, or cause you to break out in a nasty rash". I think they same can and probably should be said for Factory. ;-) Note that all I'm saying here is to be taken with a grain of salt, I'm "only" the project coordinator of SeaMonkey in the Mozilla project, I'm not in any way related to openSUSE development or its project management. Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Monday 13 Jul 2009 09:54:40 Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Samstag 11 Juli 2009 schrieb Dean Hilkewich:
The drop of KDE 3 is a very good example. Once in a while someone comes around arguing that dropping KDE 3 is a bad idea and KDE4 is much worse, ... - if invited to maintain KDE:KDE3 -> silence. Unfortunately a lot of us are not programmers so cant maintain stuff other than very rudementry stuff .
That said it does not take away the fact that the dropping of KDE3 was a bad bad move IF KDE4 had been released in a somewhat more user friendly condition then maybe the reception may not have been quite as hostile as it was .
As i had said right form the start the method of release was wrong .
That said KDE4 i just about starting to show usefull but still lots of gripes one being the lack of clear info on what repos are and are not needed to update to the latest KDE4.3 (that one is still bugging the life out of me) how when you ask a simple question can someone find so many ways to wriggle out of giving a direct answer it beats me he must be an MP .
As for KDE4, upstream it was announced that the idea was to release and get bug reports so that they wouldn't have an avalanche when it finally was released. I understood that and have gone back to KDE3 on boxes where it's been problematical and getting in the way of what I need to do - with KDE4 qjackctl, VirtualBox, yast2 from the commandline and others get stuck in FUTEX_WAIT_PRIVATE when run as root, but are fine as user and when run as root across a ssh -X connection, with KDE3 they all works fine.
Sure some features need to be done by it's maintainers, e.g. disabling beagle by default is done easily by everyone but still the maintainers should be convinced by arguments not by one line patches. Same goes for pulseaudio and the like. I don't have any sound problems on factory though, so I wonder why pulseaudio is still a problem to some.
I have problems with pulseaudio as can bee seem from previous posts where audio in firefox doesn't play and likewise "aplay /jet.wav" is silent, but gmplayer and kaffeine with my TV card is fine. Can't untangle that one and the one suggestion to remove ~/.pulse* doesn't work.
Greetings, Stephan Do you not think that some of these so called features should maybe have NOT been included to start with when they were/are so bug ridden .
You would think someone would install and run the stuff to check thru it before actually sticking it out for release (all be it a strangley named Alpha release) there should still be a certain amount of QA carried out to check that the stuff actually meets reasonable standards of reliability and usability
Pete .
I must say that most problems crept in at late Alpha through Milestone 3. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Le lundi 13 juillet 2009, à 15:44 +0100, Peter Nikolic a écrit :
The drop of KDE 3 is a very good example. Once in a while someone comes around arguing that dropping KDE 3 is a bad idea and KDE4 is much worse, ... - if invited to maintain KDE:KDE3 -> silence. Unfortunately a lot of us are not programmers so cant maintain stuff other
On Monday 13 Jul 2009 09:54:40 Stephan Kulow wrote: than very rudementry stuff .
Being a programmer obviously helps, but still, you don't have to be one to maintain packages. If you have a good relationship with upstream (and every packager should have one ;-)), then upstream can help you fix the issue -- unless the issue is specific to the distribution, but that generally doesn't happen because of programming stuff. (it's also a good way to start learning programming, even if it's to get only basic skills) Just don't be afraid of trying :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:54 AM, Stephan Kulow
The drop of KDE 3 is a very good example. Once in a while someone comes around arguing that dropping KDE 3 is a bad idea and KDE4 is much worse, ... - if invited to maintain KDE:KDE3 -> silence.
No. It would seem that the majority of the KDE3 users aren't programmers and therefore unable to do what needs to be done to maintain it. While I laud the developer's goal to make KDE4 work, I have yet to find it as usable, stable, or as fast as KDE3. However, since I decided to stick with 11.0 for now, I haven't even tried KDE4 recently. I've taken a wait and see attitude for 11.2. I will probably do some testing once it hits Beta(or Milestone 5 - Whose idea was it to change that?)
Sure some features need to be done by it's maintainers, e.g. disabling beagle by default is done easily by everyone but still the maintainers should be convinced by arguments not by one line patches. Same goes for pulseaudio and the like. I don't have any sound problems on factory though, so I wonder why pulseaudio is still a problem to some.
The biggest pet peave for me is that those things are unneccessary and shouldn't be on by default. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Dean Hilkewich -
Henne Vogelsang -
Joerg Mayer -
Larry Stotler -
Peter Nikolic -
Robert Kaiser -
Sid Boyce -
Stephan Kulow -
Vincent Untz