On Sunday, April 11, 2021, 7:29:31 PM EDT, Larry Finger wrote: On 4/11/21 6:10 PM, Chuck Davis wrote:

I've grown quite weary of this nonsense with the nvidia drivers wiping out my desktop with every kernel update in Tumbleweed.  What do other users suggest:  AMD, Intel?  Other???

Thanks for your ideas and experiences.

After some fits and starts through the past year or two, nouveau is again working very well on my GeForce GTX 550. Switching back from the nvidia version saved me having to build the new drivers when the kernel changed. My laptop has an Intel integrated graphics controller that works well and out-of-the box. ===================================== and you can get 1920x1080 display? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan       Plainfield, Indiana, USA          @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org    openSUSE Community Member    facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo               paka @ IRCnet freenode

On 12/04/2021 01:29, Larry Finger wrote:

On 4/11/21 6:10 PM, Chuck Davis wrote:

...

I've grown quite weary of this nonsense with the nvidia drivers wiping out my desktop with every kernel update in Tumbleweed.  What do other users suggest:  AMD, Intel?  Other???

Thanks for your ideas and experiences.

After some fits and starts through the past year or two, nouveau is again working very well on my GeForce GTX 550. Switching back from the nvidia version saved me having to build the new drivers when the kernel changed.

Interesting; there were updates/changes in the nouveau ecosystem (kernel, drm, X11 driver) recently? because IIRC when I tried last time, has been a while, it still had issues (I have a GTX 770).

My laptop has an Intel integrated graphics controller that works well and out-of-the box.

Larry

-- Ahmad Samir

Dne 12. 04. 21 v 9:25 Jiri Slaby napsal(a):

Intel became terrible after DDX stalled and everything moved to modesetting (it's like 2 years). Noone cares about bug reports (I have a list of 5+ bugs open for years), the graphics hang up on several distinct machines (from cheap notebooks to expensive power laptops) for

me quite regularly, I see artifacts (e.g. while window resize with compositor enabled), and so on. (But I'm not sure if other gfx cards are better in this regard at all.)

Yes, we have all Thinkpads T here and on my daughter's machine there are random lockups (including https://bugzilla.suse.com/1183938) all the time. My current workstation (again, Thinkpad T480) makes various weird graphical things, fortunately no crashes so far. Best, Matěj -- https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 Give your heartache to him. (1Pt 5,7; Mt 11:28-30)

Hi Am 12.04.21 um 09:25 schrieb Jiri Slaby:

On 12. 04. 21, 2:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On my laptops I use Intel. Cheap and solid, as long as you don't want to game or other graphic demanding operation.

However... Intel is not always reliable. I have a small server/desktop

...

machine with "Intel Atom/Celeron/Pentium Processor x5-E8000/J3xxx/N3xxx Integrated Graphics Controller" ("i915" Driver). It has, er... some problems.

I don't know the reason. Some say that Intel people do not develop drivers with the same quality for Linux than for Windows. Others say that they are not as "open" as they seem. I don't know. I know that my

...

machine has worked for years and now has problems on 15.2.

Intel became terrible after DDX stalled and everything moved to modesetting (it's like 2 years). Noone cares about bug reports (I have a list of 5+ bugs open for years), the graphics hang up on several distinct machines (from cheap notebooks to expensive power laptops) for

me quite regularly, I see artifacts (e.g. while window resize with compositor enabled), and so on. (But I'm not sure if other gfx cards are better in this regard at all.)

And yes, I can confirm, that 15.1->15.2 update broke intel gfx completely on one laptop here too. The graphics on the machine locks up

very often (mouse works, ctrl-alt-backspace cures it). But that might be the above ddx->modesetting switch (or not, I don't know when that switch happened in openSUSE).

Somehow the kernel and the X drivers don't work well together any longer. I tried to bisect, but without luck. The issues have been there for ages and got noticeably worse recently. Switching to Wayland mode resolved these problems for me at least. Best regards Thomas

P.S. funnily, my wife has just phoned me literally: "it locked up again. What am I supposed to do? The machine is now like with windows." There is something in it.

regards,

-- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer

Hi Am 12.04.21 um 09:52 schrieb Jiri Slaby:

Hi,

On 12. 04. 21, 9:39, Thomas Zimmermann wrote:

...

...

very often (mouse works, ctrl-alt-backspace cures it). But that might

...

...

be the above ddx->modesetting switch (or not, I don't know when that switch happened in openSUSE).

Somehow the kernel and the X drivers don't work well together any longer. I tried to bisect, but without luck. The issues have been there for ages and got noticeably worse recently. Switching to Wayland

...

mode resolved these problems for me at least.

I could have tried that on this particular machine, yes. But: do you use plasma? As I think wayland support in plasma is still in terrible state

(read: in the works). Note that ntb runs 15.2.

I use Gnome.

In one of the other bugs I reported, it crashes also with GNOME+wayland: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/2194

8 months, no hope...

This sucks. Unfortunately, the i915 driver is often doing its own thing, while the other drivers use shared infrastructure. It shows. And X11 on hardware is almost abandonware. There won't be much fixes here. Best regards Thomas

thanks,

-- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer

Jiri Slaby composed on 2021-04-12 09:25 (UTC+0200):

Intel became terrible after DDX stalled and everything moved to modesetting (it's like 2 years).

I have Intel Kaby Lake (1X Pentium G4600, 1X i3-7100; HD 630 both), Intel Haswell (1X Pentium G3220 GT1, 1X i3-4150T GT2 HD 4400), and several pre-Sandy Bridge (13+ years old, graphics via chipset). Except for one repeatable situation of toolbar tearing on the GT2 that disappeared with upgrade from 15.1 to 15.2, I haven't observed any issues with Modesetting DIX driver on Intel graphics. It may be this is a side-effect of keeping, as much as is possible, compositing disabled, and/or using KDE3 as primary DE. I don't think I've ever seen tearing in the modest amount I use Plasma or other QT DEs. I never use Gnome, and rarely any of its forks. Maybe those with recurring trouble should try as a workaround not using compositing, pending genuine fixes to persistent trouble experienced. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

For a while, I used the Radeon HD 7850. It's a rather old (2012) card from the "Southern Islands" architecture. I was using it as recently as 2018, and it was capable of quite new stuff like Vulkan. I would get excited when I saw Mesa updates coming down the pipeline, because each time the driver seemed to get faster. NVIDIA updates are less exciting, but I saw a claim that "full Wayland support on Linux, including XWayland" is coming in v470. I'll be glad to test and break my system in novel ways if it happens. https://twitter.com/never_released/status/1369409256567545856 avindra goolcharan On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 9:38 PM Jimmy Berry wrote:

On Sunday, April 11, 2021 6:10:12 PM CDT Chuck Davis wrote:

...

users suggest: AMD, Intel? Other???

I've had a very pleasant experience with AMD gpus on TW (three generations now) using the OSS drivers. My most recent upgrade had upstream launch day support which worked in TW as well. Beyond desktop, I use the GPU for gaming and a 6x4k@60hz monitor setup on the OSS drivers. From my perspective the drivers work very well.

-- Jimmy

Thanks guys.  Appreciate all the feedback.  I've always liked nvidia
because they supported Linux early on.  But it's become too much
hassle.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 6:49 PM Knurpht-openSUSE  wrote:
>
> Op maandag 12 april 2021 01:10:12 CEST schreef Chuck Davis:
> > I've grown quite weary of this nonsense with the nvidia drivers wiping
> > out my desktop with every kernel update in Tumbleweed.  What do other
> > users suggest:  AMD, Intel?  Other???
> >
> > Thanks for your ideas and experiences.
> To avoid this, from ( also recent ) experience:
> - Stick to Intel if you don't game, render or do computational stuff
> - Otherwise go for AMD.
> - Definitely not others.
>
> --
> Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht
> openSUSE Board
> openSUSE Forums Team

Hello, On 2021-04-12 10:40, Michal Rostecki wrote:

Two all-AMD gaming laptops I know are:

https://www.amd.com/en/gaming/gaming-laptops-dellg515se (I own this one) https://es.msi.com/Laptop/Alpha-15-A3DX (the whole Alpha 15 series)

Since a few days I am a happy owner of an even bigger sized one https://www.msi.com/Laptop/Alpha-17-A4DX I need at least a 17 inch screen, I would even like a 19 inch laptop, not for traveling usage but for some real work and gaming (aiming). I got it in Germany via https://www.otto.de/p/msi-alpha-17-a4dek-009-notebook-43-9-cm-17-3-zoll-amd-... Currently I use it with its preinstalled "operating system" (you know, that other toy that is OK for playing around but not to do some real work) only for gaming. With reasonable reduced graphics settings in the games so that there is no really visibly poor graphics quality (e.g. low shadow quality and medium texture quality) it runs nowadays games with constant at least 60 FPS in Full HD with low up to medium fan noise (of course depending on the game). It can run nowadays games even with up to 144 FPS in Full HD plus the questionable noise of a turboprop aircraft when starting which is perhaps the right "background music" in aircraft games ;-) Meanwhile I think a gaming laptop could be even needed for normal work when the machine should run under high load for a longer time (e.g. when compiling bigger software packages or things like that) because I think very most normal laptops suffer from thermal thottling when there is high load for a longer time because their cooling is insufficient for this use case. At least very most laptop's cooling looks insufficient when they are built sooo slim. Basically all power that goes in via its power cord must go out via cooling (that's just physics). We also have a full AMD gaming PC (something normal, no high-end) with two SSDs where Linux is on the second SSD. (That "other toy for playing around" on the first SSD is for gaming.) The Radeon RX 590 was initially not supported by the kernel. During boot screen went black when the amdgpu driver launched. As far as I noticed it had something to do with some "dual BIOS" on that specific RX 590 graphics card but I am not an expert here. This issue got fixed by AMD in the kernel. Since then it "just works". Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer

Hello, On 2021-04-12 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 12/04/2021 12.21, Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

...

Meanwhile I think a gaming laptop could be even needed for normal work when the machine should run under high load for a longer time (e.g. when compiling bigger software packages or things like that) because I think very most normal laptops suffer from thermal throttling when there is high load for a longer time because their cooling is insufficient for this use case. At least very most laptop's cooling looks insufficient when they are built sooo slim. Basically all power that goes in via its power cord must go out via cooling (that's just physics).

That's a fair point.

I bought recently a relatively cheap laptop with Intel graphics (Lenovo), for light use of office at home type of things. Under 900€. The machine is reasonably fast, but when doing a constant job, like writing a compressed backup, it overheats and throttles down.

They have designed it like this. Short high CPU sprints, then long low power valley periods to cool down, and you see the CPU is fast. Do a long job and it has to slow down, the heat sink and fan assembly are simply not designed to cope with a full constant load.

However, a similar machine, with Intel graphics (not gaming stuff) with a good heatsink would be an interesting machine. Probably thicker and heavier.

This "detail" was not even mentioned in the reviews.

That's the point. It would be perfectly fair to offer a slim and lightweight laptop with insufficient cooling for permanent high load use cases versus same CPU and GPU in a thick and heavy laptop with sufficient cooling for permanent high load use cases provided manufacturers would clearly tell their customers for what use cases they had designed different devices. Cf. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Opinion-It-s-time-we-talked-about-throttling-i... Therein the most interesting part is the MSI GS73VR 7RF that shows a sudden 36 percent performance drop after 20 minutes (great to be kicked out by 36 percent less performance in endgame) so performance tests should run at least about one hour to show whether or not things behave OK under permanent high load. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer

On 4/12/21 11:21 AM, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Currently I use it with its preinstalled "operating system" (you know, that other toy that is OK for playing around but not to do some real work) only for gaming. With reasonable reduced graphics settings in the games so that there is no really visibly poor graphics quality (e.g. low shadow quality and medium texture quality) it runs nowadays games with constant at least 60 FPS in Full HD with low up to medium fan noise (of course depending on the game). It can run nowadays games even with up to 144 FPS in Full HD plus the questionable noise of a turboprop aircraft when starting which is perhaps the right "background music" in aircraft games ;-)

Regarding the preinstalled "operating system", I managed to get VFIO / GPU passthrough working on mine, so far only with an external display connected though, by following this comment[0]. But I'm going to try out Looking Glass[1] as soon as I get one of those fake HDMI plugs: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B082MCMKNX/ To get Looking Glass working, Windows on the VM needs to think that a display is connected to the dGPU. But I'm still keeping dual boot, since while I don't have any displays (i.e. when I want to use my laptop not on my usual desk), I can't run the VM. Once I get Looking Glass working, I'm gonna nuke the Windows partitions. And passing through to the Linux guest works too, for games which run well on Proton. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/iv33w1/dell_g5_15_se_linux_review/gmo5q6o?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 [1] https://looking-glass.io/ Regards, Michal

Personally, I have no issues with NVIDIA on Tumbleweed. I use it both for X11/plasma/firefox and for image detection with YOLOv4. It works fine for my uses, which includes compiling and running CUDA code. I have had the issue with needing to reinstall a package. But that happened once. Given how much works good with it, I can live with this. -- Roger Oberholtzer