Re: [opensuse-factory] Friendly warning: Python 2 is going to be removed from Factory on 2020-01-02
Andrei Dziahel píše v Út 16. 04. 2019 v 00:48 +0300:
I see. Does it mean Mercurial package goes away as well?
Short answer is YES. There is longer answer. I am really sorry about it. Mercurial is one of the biggest disappointments for me in this whole saga. Whatever I think about it (and I don't use it anywhere), it is obvious that it is very important program and even more important format. I am quite certain there are zillion of lines of code stored in Mercurial repositories of both open source and proprietary programs, there were parts of Python 3 development which were specifically tailored for it (bytes formatting in Python 3.3, I believe), and yet no company owning those lines of code managed to put down enough cash to make that port happen. Mozilla, Oracle, Facebook all have huge repositories with their flagship products in Mercurial and yet AFAIK porting efforts are now in state "testsuite almost passes" (I may be mistaken, I hope I am mistaken, it was some time when I looked). I still hope the port will be finished and at least some barely functional Python3 version will be available, but we certainly don't have resources (and frankly, interest) in doing so ourselves. For users it is I believe the final call: get out of Mercurial NOW, so poorly supported program couldn't be foundation of your projects. Best, Matěj -- https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 This is a signature anti-virus. Please stop the spread of signature viruses!
Okay, this is a bold statement about poor support. The Mercurial community is undeniably and steadily working on python3; the wiki page (frequently updated, I must add) says Python3 beta release is planned on May 1st, with the hg 5.0. The pace is low indeed, but that's rather on Python cannot be relied upon without extensive test suite. IOW, I don't think this is matter of throwing more bills at the problem, it's rather about the limits of what human can do. Abandoning Mercurial is also not an option: since pijul is not production-ready, Git user experience is still an abomination, this leaves Mercurial (with hg-evolve and hg-git installed) the best command-line Git(Hub) client in class too. Anyway, there's still 8.5 months left, hopefully we'll be fine. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 9:42 AM Matěj Cepl <mcepl@cepl.eu> wrote:
Andrei Dziahel píše v Út 16. 04. 2019 v 00:48 +0300:
I see. Does it mean Mercurial package goes away as well?
Short answer is YES.
There is longer answer. I am really sorry about it. Mercurial is one of the biggest disappointments for me in this whole saga. Whatever I think about it (and I don't use it anywhere), it is obvious that it is very important program and even more important format. I am quite certain there are zillion of lines of code stored in Mercurial repositories of both open source and proprietary programs, there were parts of Python 3 development which were specifically tailored for it (bytes formatting in Python 3.3, I believe), and yet no company owning those lines of code managed to put down enough cash to make that port happen. Mozilla, Oracle, Facebook all have huge repositories with their flagship products in Mercurial and yet AFAIK porting efforts are now in state "testsuite almost passes" (I may be mistaken, I hope I am mistaken, it was some time when I looked).
I still hope the port will be finished and at least some barely functional Python3 version will be available, but we certainly don't have resources (and frankly, interest) in doing so ourselves.
For users it is I believe the final call: get out of Mercurial NOW, so poorly supported program couldn't be foundation of your projects.
Best,
Matěj
-- https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
This is a signature anti-virus. Please stop the spread of signature viruses!
-- Regards, Andrei Dziahel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 4/16/19 8:42 AM, Matěj Cepl wrote:
Andrei Dziahel píše v Út 16. 04. 2019 v 00:48 +0300:
I see. Does it mean Mercurial package goes away as well?
Short answer is YES.
There is longer answer. I am really sorry about it. Mercurial is one of the biggest disappointments for me in this whole saga. Whatever I think about it (and I don't use it anywhere), it is obvious that it is very important program and even more important format. I am quite certain there are zillion of lines of code stored in Mercurial repositories of both open source and proprietary programs, there were parts of Python 3 development which were specifically tailored for it (bytes formatting in Python 3.3, I believe), and yet no company owning those lines of code managed to put down enough cash to make that port happen. Mozilla, Oracle, Facebook all have huge repositories with their flagship products in Mercurial and yet AFAIK porting efforts are now in state "testsuite almost passes" (I may be mistaken, I hope I am mistaken, it was some time when I looked).
I'm a member of OpenJDK upstream and as I as I know, there have been attempts to convert the repositories to git but so far, they are still on Mercurial for the time being.
I still hope the port will be finished and at least some barely functional Python3 version will be available, but we certainly don't have resources (and frankly, interest) in doing so ourselves.
For users it is I believe the final call: get out of Mercurial NOW, so poorly supported program couldn't be foundation of your projects.
I find these kind of answers strange, it completely misses the point of software development. Software development is not just a finger exercise, but the whole point is to make something that is useful to others. And as long as users are using Python2.x code, getting rid of Python 2.x support is a bad idea. Just because Python upstream decides that the 2.x dead, million lines of code are not vanishing over night. This is a complete illusion. Heck, people are still running Cobol, BASIC, Fortran, Ada, Pascal code and more. All of these are also considered deprecated, too. That doesn't keep people from using them though. And I would consider a Mercurial removal a very bad idea as you are removing something that a lot of people are using. Adrian
On Tuesday 2019-04-16 12:03, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Just because Python upstream decides that the 2.x dead, million lines of code are not vanishing over night. This is a complete illusion.
Heck, people are still running Cobol, BASIC, Fortran, Ada, Pascal code and more. All of these are also considered deprecated, too.
What is deprecated are implementations, not languages. As long as MSO ships VisualBasic and (more or less) cares about its standard library, all is dandy. That ship, though, will sail for (c)python 2. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 4/16/19 12:03 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Just because Python upstream decides that the 2.x dead, million lines of code are not vanishing over night. This is a complete illusion.
Full ack. And even if software officially supports Python3 now we can see many issues as a fall-out of the migration. Which means it needs some time after the transition before things get fairly stable. And for all claiming that Python3 is already around for 10 years. The first usable version was 3.4.0 released five years ago. Ciao, Michael.
participants (5)
-
Andrei Dziahel -
Jan Engelhardt -
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz -
Matěj Cepl -
Michael Ströder