...

This doesn't preclude adding sbin to users' path for other reasons though.

/sbin/ifconfig works most of the time, when IP never works without obscure options...

this argument is beyond silly... "ip a" show the same infos as "ifconfig". Time for you to start reading some documentation. Additionaly, a read about the FHS and sbin directories usage is also recommended Do not say its not working when in fact, it is. Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 16:05 +0100, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Hi all !

Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but only under root.

This problem doesn't happens in other distros. This is because normal user has no /sbin on it's $PATH.

I think we should add export PATH=/sbin;$PATH To skeleton user account to fix this.

I disagree with your statement that /sbin is only available to "root". It can be obtained by a user with "> /sbin/ifconfig" by simply adding

Jonathan Arsenault wrote: the complete path. Also non System 5 unix distros ( like Debian based KNOPPIX and Ubuntu) have ruined the basic unix concept by destroying the value of root as being the all powerful user. It was in the past thought of as root having complete control of the system without any permission problems. Even to the point of complete eraser of the system (=> "rm -r *"). However, it was also assumed that this option was not available to the normal user ">". Hence the different $PATH (echo $PATH) for root and a user. Also "su" and "sudo" are not always equal to a real root user prompt "#". They may come close but are not always the same as root. -- 73 de Donn Washburn 307 Savoy Street Email: " n5xwb@hal-pc.org " Sugar Land, TX 77478 LL# 1.281.242.3256 Ham Callsign N5XWB HAMs : " n5xwb@arrl.net " VoIP via Gizmo: bmw_87kbike / via Skype: n5xwbg BMW MOA #: 4146 - Ambassador " http://counter.li.org " #279316 Did you know? The transistor was invented by three white men. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 5/26/07, Sid Boyce wrote:

Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Hi all !

Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but only under root.

This problem doesn't happens in other distros. This is because normal user has no /sbin on it's $PATH.

I think we should add export PATH=/sbin;$PATH To skeleton user account to fix this.

What do you think?

That's so for a good reason, these are commands that only root should do, you wouldn't want users to take control of the system, shutting down the system, services, making changes that affect the way the system works, etc. at will. A normal user should only be capable of controlling his/her account. Imagine every user being able to issue halt and heading off to lunch, Windows uptime would look desireable by comparison. If you are root and logged in as an ordinary user, you can use "sudo <command>" which will prompt you for the root password, being root, you should be the only one who knows it and the one for other users to get mad at if you do something stupid to spoil their day. Fine if it's your personal machine where you are the only other user. lancelot@barrabas:~> sudo ifconfig

LOL ! Running ifconfig as root is totally different than running it with /sbin/ifconfig as normal user. Adding /sbin/* to user's $PATH won't make any security problems. ifconfig should be useble by normal users to see their IP addresses, not to configure ones. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 5/26/07, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Friday 25 May 2007 15:45, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

...

LOL ! Running ifconfig as root is totally different than running it with /sbin/ifconfig as normal user.

How do you figure?

When I run /sbin/ifconfig from my own account and then ifconfig from root (though I have /sbin in my everyday path), and diff the results, this is what I get:

diff /tmp/{rschulz,root}-ifconfig 5c5 < RX packets:654610 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 ---

...

RX packets:654611 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0

8c8 < RX bytes:439743722 (419.3 Mb) TX bytes:61560706 (58.7 Mb) ---

...

RX bytes:439743782 (419.3 Mb) TX bytes:61560706 (58.7 Mb)

The only differences are the statistics that naturally change over time. If I could synchronize the two invocations closely enough, they might not differ at all.

...

Adding /sbin/* to user's $PATH won't make any security problems.

True, as far as I can think of.

...

ifconfig should be useble by normal users to see their IP addresses, not to configure ones.

I'd go for "hostname -i" to simply see my local host's IP address. It's much easier than finding the proper IP address in the output of ifconfig (it currently produces 44 lines of output on my system). The "hostname" command happens to be in /bin/hostname, which should be in every user's PATH. Hostname has lots of other useful options. Check it out.

Well, this command returns something incorrect: alexey@opensuse103a4:~> hostname -i 127.0.0.2 Because I don't have such an IP address. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from normal user. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 May 2007 16:35, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from normal user.

It cannot be denied. Use it as you will! Put /sbin in your path, by all means. What's the problem? Do you prefer not to be satisfied??? Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 02:35 +0300, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from normal user.

Yes, lets change the UNIX way for the unsatisfied kid ... Snip from the FHS. /sbin : System binaries Purpose Utilities used for system administration (and other root-only commands) are stored in /sbin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/local/sbin. http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SBINSYSTEMBINARIES -- "I have a vision, and you are not part of it" "Why can't humans just reboot instead of sleeping, so much wasted cycles" -Zombie Coder. Jonathan Arsenault - - http://jarpack.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jonathan Arsenault wrote:

On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 02:35 +0300, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from normal user.

Yes, lets change the UNIX way for the unsatisfied kid ...

Snip from the FHS.

/sbin : System binaries Purpose Utilities used for system administration (and other root-only commands) are stored in /sbin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/local/sbin.

http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SBINSYSTEMBINARIES

So what? That doesn't tell anything about whether it makes sense to have sbin in $PATH. I'd vote for appending sbin to regular users' $PATH by default. There are many tools in sbin that can be called as user to display at least some status information (or even just the help text). The clueless don't use the shell anyways and therefore don't care. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE Labs V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jonathan Arsenault wrote:

On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 09:08 +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

I'd vote for appending sbin to regular users' $PATH by default. There are many tools in sbin that can be called as user to display at least some status information (or even just the help text). The clueless don't use the shell anyways and therefore don't care.

Many tool usable by user in there, like what ? ifconfig and iwlist are the exception and not the rule, ip that a user should use instead of deprecated ifconfig is symlinked to /bin already.

route, traceroute, nfsstat, alsactl, lpc, mkfs ... I'm sure you'll find dozens more.

Look at the 270'or so binary in /sbin and the 330'or so in /usr/sbin (/opt/gnome/sbin and /opt/kde3/sbin even) and tell me that they belong into a user path, if you think about answering yes to that then explain to me why they needed to be separated in the first place from normal bin. Lets just stuff hem all in a giant directory and be done with it ...

The question was not whether the file system layout as we know it still makes sense but whether non-root users would benefit from quick access to sbin binaries by default. Changing the default[1] PATH is the probably the most simple way to achieve that if you don't want touch individual packages and add extra symlinks. cu Ludwig [1] which means you'd be free to change it back -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE Labs V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ludwig Nussel wrote: ...

The question was not whether the file system layout as we know it still makes sense but whether non-root users would benefit from quick access to sbin binaries by default. Changing the default[1] PATH is the probably the most simple way to achieve that if you don't want touch individual packages and add extra symlinks.

OK, but being the only Linux distribution that does it is a no-no. That would be as weird as what Ubuntu did with sudo (but not as dangerous). cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGXIo7r3NMWliFcXcRAjVCAJ9asRvAwUgKFhvcAzB9rX2cHmBIwQCffy5G qBhfBPV9XIMwkFGV7GzCXrs= =ap0o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Adding /sbin/ to user's $PATH doesn't lower your security. (because you're still bound by Linux-user security privileges)

But it will make our systems easier to use. So I vote for making it the default.

And it breaks 30 years of conventions on Unix systems and would be the only Linux distribution doing that by default. So that's definitely a no. Do it on your box if you like to or even add a switch in YaST2 to enable it, but don't make it the default setting. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGXeGQr3NMWliFcXcRAp4CAKCRvl/EBb2tE6Gl8xC5HANjD8FddwCgkj+t BF2clPTl9hRK2c+j+2uplBk= =Rfew -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 5/31/07, Ricardo Cruz wrote:

Personally, I think this only makes sense if we go through the sudo route, like Ubuntu. Otherwise, just symlink from /bin.

Ohh yes, symlinking from /sbin to /bin can also solve those problems, of inaccessible utilities. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

You must do this with care.

My question is why. You could do this with care, and waste man-hours doing a silly thing that will result in no benefit, or we could go work in other stuff, right? Make things easier? The people who should be messing with that in a root shell should know what they should run. How they know the should run ifconfig? Because they LEARNED that. Thats the same reason that they should LEARN that some commands are available only to root. Same they learn there's a linux way of doing things. People think "permission denied" and "command not found" are apocalyptic errors. They dont see that as an informative message. Which will happen if this insane thing goes on. But thats not even the point. Why adding so many entropy in something that has so little (zero) result. It wont any gain in the results. It will make us drift from the FHS, confuse users, confuse developers, confuse people learning linux on suse, confuse people learning linux in another distro and wanting to use suse. Why? This will produce only entropy and confusion. I need to remind the beginning of this discussion, which was because two people though it was too complicated to run "ip a", which is the way to do the damn task of checking interface infos. So instead of doing the right thing, you people want to invert the rotation of earth because you cant type "ip a". Why? We do things this way its been a long time, and why only now we in this topic are the first human beings in the surface of earth that though of that? So the other people, including the ones who did FHS are a bunch of stupid clowns? Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 15:09 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of the fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same name. Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin does, but it doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the one in /usr/bin/ does (which is to look up whois directory information).

I only have "/usr/bin/whois". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGXhxetTMYHG2NR9URArHUAJoDUqqUf++6CLlcan70+rOif8XkVgCcDpiR O95ZbClqZa3fwfSVMe/SR9A= =avjh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Randall R Schulz [05-30-07 21:02]:

On Wednesday 30 May 2007 17:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 15:09 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of the fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same name. Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin does, but it doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the one in /usr/bin/ does (which is to look up whois directory information).

I only have "/usr/bin/whois".

me 2

Ooh. This is good. I don't know why I didn't try this earlier:

% rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/sbin/whois sax2-tools-2.7-27

21:26 wahoo:~ > rpm -q sax2-tools sax2-tools-8.1-218.1 21:26 wahoo:~ > rpm -ql sax2-tools /usr/sbin/corner /usr/sbin/dots /usr/sbin/isax /usr/sbin/testX /usr/sbin/vncp /usr/sbin/whereiam /usr/sbin/wmstart /usr/sbin/xidle /usr/sbin/ximage /usr/sbin/xkbctrl /usr/sbin/xlook /usr/sbin/xmode /usr/sbin/xquery /usr/sbin/xw /usr/share/man/man1/sax2.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/xkbctrl.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/xmode.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/xquery.1.gz -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 19:11 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

It looks like Sax2 has gone on some kind of a weight-loss program between versions 2.7 and 8.1.

Or the file has changed name to something more sensible. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGXtFAtTMYHG2NR9URAlziAJ4lB9xhBdfeL12o0ngrJRdY61u1EACcCamw zKHiK1koZoqF5I1Xo26Y8KQ= =+AVu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Wednesday 30 May 2007 13:41, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

...

Adding /sbin/ to user's $PATH doesn't lower your security. (because you're still bound by Linux-user security privileges)

But it will make our systems easier to use. So I vote for making it the default. And it breaks 30 years of conventions on Unix systems and would be

Alexey Eremenko wrote: the only Linux distribution doing that by default.

I don't know about you, but I was using Unix (the only and only Unix) 30 years ago, and this issue simply did not exist. There was /bin and /usr/bin and everybody had both in their path, of course.

So it's a little disingenuous to make this claim.

OK, you want to be pedantic, then replace "30 years of Unix" with "10 years of Linux".

Furthermore, we should not let history or tradition stand in the way of improvement. If not having administrative directories in the default path is an impediment for users, then they should be added.

Users too stupid to prepend /sbin or add /sbin:/usr/sbin at the end of PATH shouldn't even touch the binaries located there in my opinion.

I'm agnostic on the actual topic, though, since I never run with a stock PATH or pretty much stock anything...

...

So that's definitely a no.

Do it on your box if you like to or even add a switch in YaST2 to enable it, but don't make it the default setting.

I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of the fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same name. Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin does, but it doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the one in /usr/bin/ does (which is to look up whois directory information).

/usr/sbin:/sbin has to be added at the end of PATH Anyhow, being the only Linux distribution that would do it is a sufficient reason _not_ to do it. I find it surprising people fail to see that. If it's too difficult to do echo 'PATH=$PATH:/usr/sbin:/sbin' >> /etc/profile.local then let's ask for adding a setting in YaST2 to do it (through /etc/sysconfig/suseconfig which already has settings for having . in root's PATH and such) but not a default option IMO. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGXlmPr3NMWliFcXcRAg0UAJ0b8U+8W3XJVmn7c0bzRUJii+D/hgCdEGs6 +jGLqEyNMbJXK56bCwRdHtM= =/0LE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2007-05-31 at 07:13 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

Anyhow, being the only Linux distribution that would do it is a sufficient reason _not_ to do it. I find it surprising people fail to see that.

O:-) No, because it always has had things and features not found in any other distro, and that's a good thing, IMO. If there were no differences, there would not be special interest in any distro.

If it's too difficult to do echo 'PATH=$PATH:/usr/sbin:/sbin' >> /etc/profile.local then let's ask for adding a setting in YaST2 to do it (through /etc/sysconfig/suseconfig which already has settings for having . in root's PATH and such) but not a default option IMO.

Yes, that would be nice. Not a default choice, but an option. It could be improved by having that option only for some users (those that do administration tasks), but then it wouldn't be so simple to implement in yast/suseconfig. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGXtKntTMYHG2NR9URAjwBAJ0VYa3MJsrBJu18IVJ1zG3hlznH0gCfXqNT IiD3qgDSrljhVahDrM2XTOE= =iizj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

The Edu-CD project is beginning to produce. Our first test disk http://www.opensuse-education.org/download/openSUSE-Education-Alpha4-Addon.i... is having trouble with the new software management interface under Gnome. it is as far as I can tell not our fault. Could I get some idea of when patterns will be visible? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Novell CNE 3\4\5 CLE \ NCE in training. http://en.opensuse.org/education --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 26/05/07, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from normal user.

Why not just use "ip a" and saveyourself a whole 4 keystrokes? _ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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2007/5/26, Randall R Schulz :

The PATH variable setting is not imposed on you. Change it to be whatever you like. I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to mine. I'm sure many others do, to, especially those with administrative duties, which applies in some sense to all single-user systems.

Oh, come on! We are not talking about ourself problems only but about the best default comfiguration for most users. I use Linux for 3 years and for these 3 years I was using root user to check "iwlist scan". You could also say "Don't complain about buggy compiled kernel, compile it yourself! Don't complain about buggy ZMD, prepare packages yourself!" It doesn't make sense. -- Rafał Miłecki