[opensuse-factory] wodim removal from Factory
Hello, Could we get wodim removed from openSUSE:Factory? It has no upstream since almost beginning and now exists as a zombie. Project config needs to be changed from, FileProvides: /usr/bin/mkisofs cdrkit-cdrtools-compat Prefer: cdrkit-cdrtools-compat genisoimage to, FileProvides: /usr/bin/mkisofs mkisofs Prefer: mkisofs cdrecord - Adam -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 7:13 AM, Adam Majer <amajer@suse.de> wrote:
Hello,
Could we get wodim removed from openSUSE:Factory? It has no upstream since almost beginning and now exists as a zombie.
Project config needs to be changed from,
FileProvides: /usr/bin/mkisofs cdrkit-cdrtools-compat Prefer: cdrkit-cdrtools-compat genisoimage
to,
FileProvides: /usr/bin/mkisofs mkisofs Prefer: mkisofs cdrecord
Red Hat is (sort of) a maintainer for this, as they keep up with it for the media creation tools in Fedora[1], which we should be synchronized with. KIWI also requires specifically genisoimage to work correctly (as does my livecd-tools, but that doesn't matter right now). Both of us (Marcus Schaefer for KIWI, and myself for livecd-tools) are exploring a migration path to xorriso, which provides equivalent features and are more actively maintained. Please don't drop wodim/cdrkit at this time. [1]: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/cdrkit -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/02/18 14:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 7:13 AM, Adam Majer <amajer@suse.de> wrote:
Hello,
Could we get wodim removed from openSUSE:Factory? It has no upstream since almost beginning and now exists as a zombie.
Project config needs to be changed from,
FileProvides: /usr/bin/mkisofs cdrkit-cdrtools-compat Prefer: cdrkit-cdrtools-compat genisoimage
to,
FileProvides: /usr/bin/mkisofs mkisofs Prefer: mkisofs cdrecord
Red Hat is (sort of) a maintainer for this, as they keep up with it for the media creation tools in Fedora[1], which we should be synchronized with. KIWI also requires specifically genisoimage to work correctly (as does my livecd-tools, but that doesn't matter right now). Both of us (Marcus Schaefer for KIWI, and myself for livecd-tools) are exploring a migration path to xorriso, which provides equivalent features and are more actively maintained.
Please don't drop wodim/cdrkit at this time.
I thought that kiwi 8 was capable of using mkisofs from cdrtools. Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20/02/18 14:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
Red Hat is (sort of) a maintainer for this, as they keep up with it for the media creation tools in Fedora[1], which we should be synchronized with. KIWI also requires specifically genisoimage to work correctly (as does my livecd-tools, but that doesn't matter right now). Both of us (Marcus Schaefer for KIWI, and myself for livecd-tools) are exploring a migration path to xorriso, which provides equivalent features and are more actively maintained.
Please don't drop wodim/cdrkit at this time.
The problem with this so called project is that they do not fix bugs since _many_ years. There are 50-100 bugs related to this project in the Debian and RedHat bug tracking system. None of these bugs has ever been fixed since the project exists and none of these bugs has ever been in the original project.
I thought that kiwi 8 was capable of using mkisofs from cdrtools.
In January 2014, mkisofs added a new option "-legacy" to allow to give the options -H/-L/-P the meaning they had in the 1990s. This has been done on request from SuSe and since then, there should be no need to use the unmaintained genisoimage. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/20/2018 03:57 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
The problem with this so called project is that they do not fix bugs since _many_ years.
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
There are 50-100 bugs related to this project in the Debian and RedHat bug tracking system. None of these bugs has ever been fixed since the project exists and none of these bugs has ever been in the original project.
That's not really relevant as most people use libburnia these days. Debian keeps wodim around as it is mkisofs from libburnia is still missing some options required for creating bootable images for Apple PowerMac systems. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Le mercredi 21 février 2018 à 10:59 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz a écrit :
On 02/20/2018 03:57 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
The problem with this so called project is that they do not fix bugs since _many_ years.
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
Could we get over the past, please ? -- Frederic Crozat Enterprise Desktop Release Manager SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/21/2018 11:15 AM, Frederic Crozat wrote:
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
Could we get over the past, please ?
We are. There is libburnia and that's what people use these days. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/21/2018 11:15 AM, Frederic Crozat wrote:
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
Could we get over the past, please ?
We are. There is libburnia and that's what people use these days.
Could you please stop you social attacks? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/20/2018 03:57 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
The problem with this so called project is that they do not fix bugs since _many_ years.
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
Are you a victim of the lies from the non-social Debian people? The fork happened because a Debian packetizer wanted to get more attention in order to get a better chance to get a job at the company "Nero" after he finished his studies. This is of course a "reason", but a very selfish one...
That's not really relevant as most people use libburnia these days.
Why should people use something that supports less features than cdrtools? Note that libburnia does not even include support for the UDF filesystem.
Debian keeps wodim around as it is mkisofs from libburnia is still missing some options required for creating bootable images for Apple PowerMac systems.
I doubt that this is a real issue since I doubt that there is a need to add this code at all. 1) The "supported" platforms are dead since 20 years. Are they supported by Debian at all? 2) Mkisofs includes a "raw" boot option. You can of course do what the manufacturers of these platforms did: copy a platform specific boot block to the first 32 kB of the disk. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/21/2018 11:19 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
Are you a victim of the lies from the non-social Debian people?
The fork happened because a Debian packetizer wanted to get more attention in order to get a better chance to get a job at the company "Nero" after he finished his studies. This is of course a "reason", but a very selfish one...
Ach, Joerg.
That's not really relevant as most people use libburnia these days.
Why should people use something that supports less features than cdrtools?
People don't have to use anything. But distributions have the right to choose what they package and what they don't. They decided against cdrecord but that doesn't keep anyone of downloading cdrecord from your website and installing it. So I don't see the problem here.
Debian keeps wodim around as it is mkisofs from libburnia is still missing some options required for creating bootable images for Apple PowerMac systems.
I doubt that this is a real issue since I doubt that there is a need to add this code at all.
Yes, that is the real issue. I know that because I am on the Debian Ports team and I need mkisofs from the cdrkit package to make bootable CDs for powerpc.
1) The "supported" platforms are dead since 20 years. Are they supported by Debian at all?
Yes. And you are talking to one of the people in charge of them. This even includes m68k :-).
2) Mkisofs includes a "raw" boot option. You can of course do what the manufacturers of these platforms did: copy a platform specific boot block to the first 32 kB of the disk.
The images I created without cdrecord work fine and we have many happy users. Thanks, Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Le mercredi 21 février 2018 à 11:23 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz a écrit :
On 02/21/2018 11:19 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
Are you a victim of the lies from the non-social Debian people?
The fork happened because a Debian packetizer wanted to get more attention in order to get a better chance to get a job at the company "Nero" after he finished his studies. This is of course a "reason", but a very selfish one...
Ach, Joerg.
That's not really relevant as most people use libburnia these days.
Why should people use something that supports less features than cdrtools?
People don't have to use anything. But distributions have the right to choose what they package and what they don't. They decided against cdrecord but that doesn't keep anyone of downloading cdrecord from your website and installing it. So I don't see the problem here.
Debian keeps wodim around as it is mkisofs from libburnia is still missing some options required for creating bootable images for Apple PowerMac systems.
I doubt that this is a real issue since I doubt that there is a need to add this code at all.
Yes, that is the real issue. I know that because I am on the Debian Ports team and I need mkisofs from the cdrkit package to make bootable CDs for powerpc.
This is the *openSUSE Factory* mailing list. If you have issue which are concerning cdrecord and Debian, please discuss them on Debian mailing list, this is not the proper location. -- Frederic Crozat Enterprise Desktop Release Manager SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/21/2018 11:32 AM, Frederic Crozat wrote:> This is the *openSUSE Factory* mailing list.
If you have issue which are concerning cdrecord and Debian, please discuss them on Debian mailing list, this is not the proper location.
I don't have any issues with cdrecord and Debian. Debian has settled this issue long time ago. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Frederic Crozat <fcrozat@suse.com> wrote:
This is the *openSUSE Factory* mailing list.
If you have issue which are concerning cdrecord and Debian, please discuss them on Debian mailing list, this is not the proper location.
Thank you! Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/21/2018 11:19 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
The fork didn't happen without a reason.
Are you a victim of the lies from the non-social Debian people?
The fork happened because a Debian packetizer wanted to get more attention in order to get a better chance to get a job at the company "Nero" after he finished his studies. This is of course a "reason", but a very selfish one...
Ach, Joerg.
Do you have problems with facts? I guess that you like to claim that "the fork" happened because of a license change in cdrtools.... the usual lie spread by Debian people. Just stupid that the license change happened two years _after_ Debian started their buggy fork and after two years of constant personal attacks from Debian. As you see, the license change was done in defence to Debians attacks. The only reason for the fork was the attempt of a person to get a job at Nero.
That's not really relevant as most people use libburnia these days.
Why should people use something that supports less features than cdrtools?
People don't have to use anything. But distributions have the right to choose what they package and what they don't. They decided against cdrecord but that doesn't keep anyone of downloading cdrecord from your website and installing it. So I don't see the problem here.
People who like to get quality and reliability use cdrtools. I of course cannot prevent people from using different software. A distro that does not include legal reliable software like cdrtools however is a bad distro because it makes it harder for people to get what they like. I should give you an example.... More than 10 years ago, my institute leader asked me to come to his office where one of the managers of the Bundeskriminalamt was sitting. This person asked me why he is forced to self compile cdrtools in order to get working software. Note that this definitely was not a software geek. BTW: unless you are able to prove that there really is an issue with bootable CDs, it seems that I safely may assume that there is no such issue. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/21/2018 11:37 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Do you have problems with facts?
I guess that you like to claim that "the fork" happened because of a license change in cdrtools.... the usual lie spread by Debian people.
Just stupid that the license change happened two years _after_ Debian started their buggy fork and after two years of constant personal attacks from Debian. As you see, the license change was done in defence to Debians attacks. The only reason for the fork was the attempt of a person to get a job at Nero.
It's really entertaining to read your stories. Thanks!
That's not really relevant as most people use libburnia these days.
Why should people use something that supports less features than cdrtools?
People don't have to use anything. But distributions have the right to choose what they package and what they don't. They decided against cdrecord but that doesn't keep anyone of downloading cdrecord from your website and installing it. So I don't see the problem here.
People who like to get quality and reliability use cdrtools. I of course cannot prevent people from using different software. A distro that does not include legal reliable software like cdrtools however is a bad distro because it makes it harder for people to get what they like.
It's 2018. People don't really use optical media anymore.
I should give you an example....
More than 10 years ago, my institute leader asked me to come to his office where one of the managers of the Bundeskriminalamt was sitting. This person asked me why he is forced to self compile cdrtools in order to get working software.
I don't even know what you are trying to tell me. But it's also telling when you begin your sentence with "More than 10 years ago" in regard to my statement above.
BTW: unless you are able to prove that there really is an issue with bootable CDs, it seems that I safely may assume that there is no such issue.
I didn't make any claims about cdrecord whatsoever if you're implying that. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/21/2018 11:37 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Do you have problems with facts?
I guess that you like to claim that "the fork" happened because of a license change in cdrtools.... the usual lie spread by Debian people.
Just stupid that the license change happened two years _after_ Debian started their buggy fork and after two years of constant personal attacks from Debian. As you see, the license change was done in defence to Debians attacks. The only reason for the fork was the attempt of a person to get a job at Nero.
It's really entertaining to read your stories. Thanks!
I am not amused to see proven lies from Debian to be spread at nauseum. Please finally stop your pointless attacks. Didn't you read that Suse people urged you to stop your campaign?
I don't even know what you are trying to tell me. But it's also telling when you begin your sentence with "More than 10 years ago" in regard to my statement above.
Cdrkit did not change since then.... libburnia still does not support the needed basic features. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2018-02-21 at 11:50 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
It's 2018. People don't really use optical media anymore.
They do, actually. The fact was shown to me the other day, in this mail list. I asked to drop the DVD install image and switch to an USB install image, bigger. Not going to happen, the DVD is still used. I stand corrected. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlqOuCMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UPTACdE8cBFvznO7+7oXXx1Q+kAZNC iQIAoIc1HLGyir3xWO8Usj9LIuuHRoh1 =W7a4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/22/2018 01:31 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
They do, actually.
The fact was shown to me the other day, in this mail list.
I asked to drop the DVD install image and switch to an USB install image, bigger. Not going to happen, the DVD is still used. I stand corrected.
The largest manufacturer of CD-Rs and DVDs and also the inventor of CD-R media, Taiyo Yuden, stopped making them. Same for TDK. Other manufacturers are following suit. These companies wouldn't stop making media if people were still buying them. Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore. So, while there are certainly people still using optical media, they are becoming a minority as the market is declining. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/02/18 07:38 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
The largest manufacturer of CD-Rs and DVDs and also the inventor of CD-R media, Taiyo Yuden, stopped making them. Same for TDK.
Other manufacturers are following suit. These companies wouldn't stop making media if people were still buying them.
I sometimes wonder why people don't have a better understanding of economics. There are always (at least) two possible economic reasons for things like this. An alternative that occurs to me is this. I was around when optical media began and everyone, including my then employer who was looking for something of this order, was sceptical, and the manufacturers were few and the product was taken up by music industry and there was little production left over for the computer world. Now we're at the tail end; the technology to produce writeable optical media is easy, commonplace and there are all to many manufacturers of 2nd and 3rd grade product. The street price of clone DVDs is around $5/1000. Yes they have a failure rate between 1% and 5%, but so what? Some of that the software can route around, some it just 'try the next one'. Heck, notebooks at the dollar stores cost more, per page, than that. You can expect the retail stores to have a 100% price mark-up. The whole supply chain probably has a 500% mark-up. Competing with those prices who wants to be in the business?
Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore.
Again, look to economics. When it comes to laptops, they are being made thinner and lighter -- that's the way the market goes -- and hence batteries are thinner and lighter but the operating lifetime must be sustained or increased. My Older HP/Compac x6000 (that now sits under my desk and run MySQL to support web services) had what, 4 USB ports, HDVI, audio, a cluster of card slots, AND a CD/DVD drive. It also had a hunking thick battery, two fans but still ran hot and the whole thing was heavy. It was everything that today's market isn't. Yes, today's machines are just as expensive, and in many ways you're getting less for you money; just a faster cpu, a better screen to display the more eye-candy of the more space and cpu-power consuming software. No wonder some of the old-timers on the openSUSE lists are turning away from Gnome and KDE and all their hungry eye-candy to the simpler, cleaner XFCE. As for PCs, well it's the same economic argument as the airlines. They sell 'stripped' models and charge extra for the 'add-ons'. Not enough disk, not enough RAM, not enough video; but just enough to run ... And the airlines charge extra for luggage, for meals, for headphones. They are now taking away the seat-back screens an making it a BYOD, but you can bet they are going to charge for power hookups and the movies will will become pay-for. Like the man said, "it's the economy". Or rather profit margin. I don't think that looking to economic explanations rather than technological ones to explain market shifts makes me an old fart or anti-technologist. -- "The greatest of all faults is to be conscious of none. Recognizing our limitations & imperfections is the first requisite of progress. Those who believe they have "arrived" believe they have nowhere to go. Some not only have closed their minds to new truth, but they sit on the lid." -- Dale Turner. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/22/2018 02:34 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I sometimes wonder why people don't have a better understanding of economics. There are always (at least) two possible economic reasons for things like this.
No, there isn't really an alternative explanation. Manufacturers stop producing a certain technology if the market shrinks below a certain size that it's no longer viable to manufacture and sell a product. In the end, companies make products and sell them because they want to earn money.
Now we're at the tail end; the technology to produce writeable optical media is easy, commonplace and there are all to many manufacturers of 2nd and 3rd grade product. The street price of clone DVDs is around $5/1000. Yes they have a failure rate between 1% and 5%, but so what? Some of that the software can route around, some it just 'try the next one'. Heck, notebooks at the dollar stores cost more, per page, than that.
You can expect the retail stores to have a 100% price mark-up. The whole supply chain probably has a 500% mark-up. Competing with those prices who wants to be in the business?
I don't see how that contradicts anything what I have outlined before.
Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore.
Again, look to economics. When it comes to laptops, they are being made thinner and lighter -- that's the way the market goes -- and hence batteries are thinner and lighter but the operating lifetime must be sustained or increased. My Older HP/Compac x6000 (that now sits under my desk and run MySQL to support web services) had what, 4 USB ports, HDVI, audio, a cluster of card slots, AND a CD/DVD drive. It also had a hunking thick battery, two fans but still ran hot and the whole thing was heavy. It was everything that today's market isn't.
Yep. And one of the reasons why people don't have a problem with laptops being thin and coming without an optical drive is because the majority of customers download their software these days instead of buying a box with the software on CD in a retail store.
Yes, today's machines are just as expensive, and in many ways you're getting less for you money; just a faster cpu, a better screen to display the more eye-candy of the more space and cpu-power consuming software. No wonder some of the old-timers on the openSUSE lists are turning away from Gnome and KDE and all their hungry eye-candy to the simpler, cleaner XFCE.
I'm not sure how this is related?
As for PCs, well it's the same economic argument as the airlines. They sell 'stripped' models and charge extra for the 'add-ons'. Not enough disk, not enough RAM, not enough video; but just enough to run ... And the airlines charge extra for luggage, for meals, for headphones. They are now taking away the seat-back screens an making it a BYOD, but you can bet they are going to charge for power hookups and the movies will will become pay-for. Like the man said, "it's the economy". Or rather profit margin.
And they can only do that because the majority of consumers doesn't care about these features no longer being part of the standard feature set.
I don't think that looking to economic explanations rather than technological ones to explain market shifts makes me an old fart or anti-technologist.
Well, the economic shift is a result of technological development. 25 years ago, the average internet connection speed what people had at home was as fast as 33kBit/s. Nowadays, the majority of users have much faster internet connections and hence installing software from local media is usually no longer necessary. Again, I'm not saying that there aren't any users for optical media left. But refusing to accept that the market has dramatically shifted away from them would not reflect reality. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/02/18 08:47 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 02:34 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I sometimes wonder why people don't have a better understanding of economics. There are always (at least) two possible economic reasons for things like this.
No, there isn't really an alternative explanation. Manufacturers stop producing a certain technology if the market shrinks below a certain size that it's no longer viable to manufacture and sell a product.
That's one explanation. It is valid. Another is that their competitors can, quite consistently, produce a product -- even if of inferior quality but still acceptable to the market -- for less, and sell it for less. This is quite commonplace with maturing t4chnologies and their methods and with in maturing markets. We've seen that shakedown in many other industries. The traditional industries of the UK, for example, coal and steel production, ship building, died away (despite government subsidies by the socialist governments) as Asian competitors could better them. And we've seen that cycle repeat itself with other technologies. We're seeing it with the energy sector and in the long run government protectionism won't work. -- What goes around comes around. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-02-22 13:38, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 01:31 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
They do, actually.
The fact was shown to me the other day, in this mail list.
I asked to drop the DVD install image and switch to an USB install image, bigger. Not going to happen, the DVD is still used. I stand corrected.
The largest manufacturer of CD-Rs and DVDs and also the inventor of CD-R media, Taiyo Yuden, stopped making them. Same for TDK.
<https://www.pccomponentes.com/cd-dvd>
Other manufacturers are following suit. These companies wouldn't stop making media if people were still buying them. Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore.
I had a quick look for laptops without a drive, yesterday, and many had one. <https://www.pccomponentes.com/portatiles/grabadora-blu-ray/grabadora-cd-dvd-super-multi-doble-capa/reproductor-blu-ray-dvd> 324 laptops have a drive (of 928 total).
So, while there are certainly people still using optical media, they are becoming a minority as the market is declining.
Well, ask openSUSE. The official position seems to be that the DVD image will continue being made. The proposal to drop it and increase the size of the image was refused. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 02/22/2018 02:44 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The largest manufacturer of CD-Rs and DVDs and also the inventor of CD-R media, Taiyo Yuden, stopped making them. Same for TDK.
Come on. You are deliberately misreading what I said, don't you? I did never claim you can no longer buy optical media, you can. But the market has declined significantly. Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining? What's coming next? Are you going to link a web store which has some VHS recorders listed to prove that there is still a huge market for video cassettes?
Other manufacturers are following suit. These companies wouldn't stop making media if people were still buying them. Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore.
I had a quick look for laptops without a drive, yesterday, and many had one.
324 laptops have a drive (of 928 total).
Yes. And 20 years ago, that number of laptops with a drive would have been significantly larger. You are providing my point.
So, while there are certainly people still using optical media, they are becoming a minority as the market is declining.
Well, ask openSUSE.
The official position seems to be that the DVD image will continue being made.
DVD images can usually copied to a USB flash drive to be used as installation media. I mean, are you seriously downloading an image, burn it to a DVD to install openSUSE instead of using a USB flash drive which costs less than a 10-pack of DVDs? PS: I think this thread is getting off-topic and I am therefore going to stop answering. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-02-22 14:53, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 02:44 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, while there are certainly people still using optical media, they are becoming a minority as the market is declining.
Well, ask openSUSE.
The official position seems to be that the DVD image will continue being made.
DVD images can usually copied to a USB flash drive to be used as installation media. I mean, are you seriously downloading an image, burn it to a DVD to install openSUSE instead of using a USB flash drive which costs less than a 10-pack of DVDs?
See RB responses to that. Yes, openSUSE install image will continue to be DVD size precisely because of those users.
PS: I think this thread is getting off-topic and I am therefore going to stop answering.
Do as you will. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*. Heck, IBM got out of the PC business that it founded, sold things off to Leveno; the Asian clones just drove the market too low for their kind of business methods. They couldn't become 'lean' enough fast enough for it to be economically viable. Some of their competitors could, but they also sold on the one 'hooks' and did not have the tiers and inflexibility of business processes that IBM had. Changes cost, and more tiers, the more inflexible the business, the higher the cost of change and the more reluctance to make it. Nothing new here. It happened in the early days of the auto industry, many badges from the start of the 20th century are not around now and the cycle - almost - repeated itself with the "Japanese Invasion" of the auto industry when the US industry proved too inflexible, suffered competitive hist and was eventually *FORCED* to change, and dis so by squeezing out the smaller brands. Which further proves my point: there is more than one, more than TWO, responses to changes in market demands and production efficiencies. -- /me squares everything, to remove negativeness (except for imaginary things, which don't matter, and complex things, which are too complex). -- mdw, on IRC -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/02/18 09:28 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
I'll let other people answer for themselves: Me: yesterday and today. -- Operationally, God is beginning to resemble not a ruler but the last fading smile of a cosmic Cheshire cat. Sir Julian Huxley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Feb 22 2018, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
I got my MRT images on a CD. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz composed on 2018-02-22 15:28 (UTC+0100):
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
Yesterday and the day before each. I rarely use DVDs for OS installations. Net installation images fit CDs, download less of what will not be installed, while the net installation process offers packages that DVDs lack. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:28:11 +0100 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
Last year, before I even applied for the SUSE role I am now very happy to have, I spent some time on a couple of personal projects. One was refurbishing an old laptop for a friend, another was a quick survey of the Linux distro landscape using an old desktop machine of mine. I installed Windows 8, 8.1, 10, and the latest versions of: * Fedora * Ubuntu * OpenSUSE * SLED * Elementary * Crunchbang++ * BunsenLabs * True OS (i.e. FreeBSD) * Debian * Devuan I think at least 2 or 3 of those, maybe more, fit onto CDs. Several used DVDs. I had boxes of the things, so it seemed easier than wearing out USB sticks -- and some of my hardware won't boot off USB sticks. So, several within the last 9 months, say. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/22/2018 05:19 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
Last year, before I even applied for the SUSE role I am now very happy to have, I spent some time on a couple of personal projects. One was refurbishing an old laptop for a friend, another was a quick survey of ^^^^^^^^^^ the Linux distro landscape using an old desktop machine of mine. ^^^^^^^^^^^
I mean, seriously, come on. You are completely proving my point. I do remote office and I work in the office of a large physics department in Berlin at a university. For a very long time, people came and asked for various applications like Mathematica, Origin, Matlab and so on to be burned on CD/DVD so they could use the department license on their machines. This has stopped completely, no one is asking for optical media anymore. There are over a thousand students, employees and other affiliated people at the department. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 22. Februar 2018, 17:19:33 CET schrieb Liam Proven:
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
Last weekend. Regularily burning Music CDs für devices that dont support USB.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2018-02-22 21:25, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Februar 2018, 17:19:33 CET schrieb Liam Proven:
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
Last weekend. Regularily burning Music CDs für devices that dont support USB....
Oh, car radios you mean. Ha. Quick, find the Line-in jack! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
Last weekend. Regularily burning Music CDs für devices that dont support USB....
Oh, car radios you mean. Ha. Quick, find the Line-in jack!
Do you know how old his car is? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 9:28 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
A CD? Long ago. A DVD? I bought a 100 pack in early Dec. The top inch of the stack is gone. I use DVD media to deliver read-only data to clients. They copy it to their computers, but if a year goes by and they suspect someone made a change to the data I provided, they can go back to the DVD and verify exactly what I provided. Data delivered via FTP site simply doesn't have the same inherent reliability to a non-technical user. (My clients are lawyers.) When I build new PCs for internal use, I buy DVD drives for them. The laptop I bought 2 weeks ago has a DVD player. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
Maybe a couple of years ago, I think I burned a Knoppix CD. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-1.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 11:40 AM, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
Maybe a couple of years ago, I think I burned a Knoppix CD.
I still occasionally burn DVDs because they are more reliable than USB sticks. I just did this about three weeks ago to install Fedora on a machine. It was a newly built machine that also had an optical drive, so that's what we used. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi,
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
01/2018 burned a "system rescue cd". older computers did not boot on usb-sticks, (and newer ones did not work with my older "system rescue cd"'s) i bought 4 new computers 8/2017, all have dvd-writers inside. simoN Am 22.02.2018 um 15:28 schrieb John Paul Adrian Glaubitz:
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
- -- B e c h e r e r GmbH Sondermaschinenbau Mauermatten Strasse 22 79183 Waldkirch Germany -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJajvRrAAoJEOuDxDCJWQG+xS4QAKQbL/zUZaAikK3rWV2XOsUb Z1DlsfqI9rmzDC1BP7SySMGS/E2x6PaVtHNn4rIb3P31zn4EG0l7qaZLadEA0SKa du9/1FicCCHk4VjFpkS3TzAisDyDgCFlB2AHRKXNTQN+0SrMMArHxGEc0aT/CZ79 ykkkNr9ps115JjSy2eCAc56dDrtNUik1UsdeKfM8F5vMIz1BLuzlqAQ0zLnzOi+d 4DQ0TRHP6LKDtvQpae3/ANuZEdIEsu17sUl8EiEodZQgmTtaSKT/dBFw2E6xdWY8 Mqe49J8GoVstW/YCTNJbD3SUmWkBd7D16tT1U+rTYA7FTLF/ZL7gt3R58rPZ2c9m ptOc/tcjY3TrpTiDS/h532+8grbg5+jinoIPeMdhKd66QUC6WorIVORWAEUmsRax j1JxenO7SUrKy60DLnVcLp6+Udo/NV7Z6JbM8SNPG583SXo7c8ObNAz4HLXYYxZY INPWIfoWJhZWjkrcdyzOkIu4NZuXGTYN/y35p7gfW8GTtCvc1IU1YAv+XP3tef88 x0s27ZxdwOfpO9zXS87nYLnaoq9l3/A7Fzq7vK8khcxFbv7EAPNhdrPFmlSG3QmN UDDnM47REQ/X8N0W+DTdpcGlmNlh4sQJqm+Q5MvM7r2eKF3TA/0LPuq5YynIREP7 UH50/R0IynsjpkN60WPT =qaGh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2018-02-22 15:28, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 03:26 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Do you really think the largest manufacturers would stop making them if the market wasn't declining?
As I point out, there are other reasons the major manufacturers would want to get out of a market that is no longer profitable *FOR THEM*.
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
CD, not recently. DVD yes, two weeks ago. And Bluray DVDs. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlqPDrAACgkQja8UbcUWM1xo0wD+KQoOB0Gm4RRqAUO4UzvcRzOu tPu6i4Y9KaOUQTRTHBMBAIs2jHL2egNZkDqCcWdIwk1fBeRd4vmPJ3AXYdrgnPCG =uHZV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 22.02.2018 15:28, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
To get back to topic: When was the last time anyone on this thread burning a CD or DVD did run into one of the wodim/genisoimage/growisofs bugs that Joerg has since fixed in cdrtools? (I do appreciate that Joerg does fix bugs in there, other than the wodim-fork-crowd not fixing anything since directly after the fork, I just do not believe that these bug fixes really make a difference for my usage) -- Stefan Seyfried Ceterum censeo fluid-soundfont esse delendam (from the Leap 15 DVD :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2018-02-23 at 08:42 +0100, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 22.02.2018 15:28, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
To get back to topic:
Wasn;t the topic of the thread 'removal od wodim from Factory'? Can we please stop the chatter about who burns how many CDs at at day? This is irrelevant information to form a decision about wodim. What matters is: is the maintainer no longer willing to maintain it and happy with moving away? Can we do it without breaking anything? Do users that benefitted from its functionality have a viable alternative in the distro, to not break their workflows completely? All the rest in this mail is noise - and there is getting too much of it on this list. Cheers Dominique
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar <dimstar@opensuse.org> wrote:
matters is: is the maintainer no longer willing to maintain it and happy with moving away?
Was wodim ever maintained? If you believe this, why did this "maintainer" never fix bugs? Could you name this maintainer please?
Can we do it without breaking anything? Do users that benefitted from its functionality have a viable alternative in the distro, to not break their workflows completely?
I propose that someone with a full Suse source installed does something like: find $(SRCROOT) -type f -exec grep genisoimage {} + If this returns anything that is not related to the wodim package, there seems to be a bug that needs to be fixed, since genisoimage produces filesystem images with structural defects. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2018-02-23 at 11:42 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar <dimstar@opensuse.org> wrote:
matters is: is the maintainer no longer willing to maintain it and happy with moving away?
Was wodim ever maintained? If you believe this, why did this "maintainer" never fix bugs?
Could you name this maintainer please?
Please stop meta-questioning everything about wodim. This is not helping in this thread, which allready went far off the original intent. I'm trying to get it back on track, so, please, pretty please: Leave it on track. Maintainer in context of openSUSE means the person taking care of bugs files against openSUSE and working with a potential upstream to get things moving. I do value your input, but please stay productive, on topic. Cheers Dominique
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar <dimstar@opensuse.org> wrote:
Please stop meta-questioning everything about wodim. This is not
Could you please stay constructive? If you are not talking about a maintainer but about a packetizer, you could name this in an unambiguous way in order to avoid misunderstandings. If you on the other side believe that you rely on software that has unfixed bugs, you should remove such dependencies and upgrade to software that fixed the problems in question in August 2006. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2018-02-23 at 11:59 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar <dimstar@opensuse.org> wrote:
Please stop meta-questioning everything about wodim. This is not
Could you please stay constructive?
I'm tyring to - but you make it hard
If you are not talking about a maintainer but about a packetizer, you could name this in an unambiguous way in order to avoid misunderstandings.
This is the openSUSE Factory mailing list - in the last 10 years, 'maintainer' in context of openSUSE has been 'the person that looks after the thing in our distro' - never the upstream maintainer / teams.
If you on the other side believe that you rely on software that has unfixed bugs, you should remove such dependencies and upgrade to software that fixed the problems in question in August 2006.
This must be the first of your statements I can 'simply agree' to. I'm not fighting to keep wodim in the distro. I'm only safeguarding to not pull out pillars that are "at this moment" needed to keep the building up. Cheers Dominique
Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> wrote:
On 22.02.2018 15:28, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
When was the last time you or anyone on this thread burned a CD?
To get back to topic:
When was the last time anyone on this thread burning a CD or DVD did run into one of the wodim/genisoimage/growisofs bugs that Joerg has since fixed in cdrtools?
IIRC what Klaus Knopper and Michael Prokop told me, they had a failure rate of aprox. 50% with writing DVDs when they did not use cdrecord. Regarding mkisofs: If the Linux kernel fixes some of the bugs in the Linux ISO-9660 filesystem implementation, filesystems created by genisoimage may not work anymore. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/02/18 08:53 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Yes. And 20 years ago, that number of laptops with a drive would have been significantly larger. You are providing my point.
No he's not, he's proving another point. The market for tablets has provoked a market that never existed before; laptops that are as light as laptops, that can run all day like tablet. But to get that performance, compromises have to be mad: they have to be thinner, lighter, and that means stripping them down. It's not that the market for optical recoding vanished, its that the market for a DIFFERENT type of device was created, and without a corresponding increase in overall market size. You could equally argue that Apple, the SmartPhone, Ipod and tablets have displaced the market of "thick", well equipped laptops. My portable devices all have slots for cards: sdxc and microsdxc -- phone, tablet, laptop and camera. They simply don't have the size or power to accommodate a floppy disk or DVD drive. But lets face it; these devices didn't even exist 20 years ago; they've CREATED a new market. That's what's missing from your argument, JP. "Availability". -- If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:38:31 +0100 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
The largest manufacturer of CD-Rs and DVDs and also the inventor of CD-R media, Taiyo Yuden, stopped making them. Same for TDK.
Other manufacturers are following suit. These companies wouldn't stop making media if people were still buying them. Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore.
So, while there are certainly people still using optical media, they are becoming a minority as the market is declining.
That may be true and fair, but it slightly misses the core point, I think. It's not really about what the actual physical media are. It's about the focus that results from aiming for a particular size of medium. If a group or community producing a Linux distro decides to aim for a particular size -- say a CD, at approximately 2/3 of a gigabyte -- then that means that it becomes necessary to really pare down the included software to get it to fit. That's one of the places Ubuntu started from. Back then, the commercial boxed version of SUSE responded to the issue of expensive limited bandwidth by bundling at first multiple CDs, then a DVD and CDs, and then multiple DVDs of software. Whatever you wanted, it was probably on the media somewhere. Result, something very complete but with a very complex install procedure that asked lots of questions, many of which were very difficult for a non-techie to answer. Ubuntu's response was in essence quite simple. It was "we will do a 1-CD distro which asks _as few questions as possible_ and gives you a curated set of the essentials." 1 desktop, 1 browser, 1 text editor, 1 email client, 1 chat app, 1 office suite, and so on. No choices. No decisions. They picked only all-FOSS stuff -- so back then, Qt was still dual-licensed, I think, so no KDE. No choice of anything: you got what they considered the single best app in each category. This was diametrically opposed to SUSE's method, which was to basically offer you as much choice as possible. If you wished you could install a distro with half a dozen different desktops, 6 web browsers, 843 text editors, 7 office suites, 37 email clients, etc. (These are made-up numbers to illustrate a point.) Well, it must be said, the Ubuntu approach has worked very well for them. It's been a wildly successful desktop, and that itself has gained them mindshare and that has led to lots of young techies coming into the Linux world and trying Ubuntu first... and later, those people get jobs in tech, and they pick the distro they know, and that's Ubuntu. And _that_ has let to the wide use of Ubuntu Server. It's a good tactic. It has worked well for them. Of course it's been controversial. Lots of groups were annoyed that _their_ preferred tools were left out, so that's led to the rise of lots of alternate "remixes" -- mainly, ones based on different desktops, with selections of tools to suit. That's what the size-of-a-CD point is about. Not the numbers of machine with CD drives these days. Ubuntu no longer fits on a CD. That itself is part of what led to the creation of Lubuntu, which tries to be the lightest-weight version, and does still fit on a CD. Rightly or wrongly, _that's_ the relevance of CD-sized images. It led to focus, simplification, removal of confusion questions, and to a smaller, simpler type of Linux distro with an easier installer. Overall, I'd say that's been a good thing for the Linux market in general. No? -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/02/18 23:38, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 01:31 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
They do, actually.
The fact was shown to me the other day, in this mail list.
I asked to drop the DVD install image and switch to an USB install image, bigger. Not going to happen, the DVD is still used. I stand corrected.
The largest manufacturer of CD-Rs and DVDs and also the inventor of CD-R media, Taiyo Yuden, stopped making them. Same for TDK.
Reference, thank you.
Other manufacturers are following suit. These companies wouldn't stop making media if people were still buying them. Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore.
So, while there are certainly people still using optical media, they are becoming a minority as the market is declining.
Adrian
BC -- Always be nice to people on your way up -- you'll see the same people on your way down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
OFF-LIST * Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [02-24-18 03:43]:
On 22/02/18 23:38, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
On 02/22/2018 01:31 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
They do, actually.
The fact was shown to me the other day, in this mail list.
I asked to drop the DVD install image and switch to an USB install image, bigger. Not going to happen, the DVD is still used. I stand corrected.
The largest manufacturer of CD-Rs and DVDs and also the inventor of CD-R media, Taiyo Yuden, stopped making them. Same for TDK.
Reference, thank you.
Other manufacturers are following suit. These companies wouldn't stop making media if people were still buying them. Also, more and more computers you buy these days don't even ship with an optical drive anymore.
So, while there are certainly people still using optical media, they are becoming a minority as the market is declining.
Adrian
the manufacture of CD/DVD is also OFF TOPIC, thank you -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2018-02-22 13:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Wednesday, 2018-02-21 at 11:50 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
It's 2018. People don't really use optical media anymore.
They do, actually.
But what actually matters in this discussion is mkisofs and the iso9660 image format with a boot option, because firmwares have learnt to understand it even for non-optical storage. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-02-22 15:07, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2018-02-22 13:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Wednesday, 2018-02-21 at 11:50 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
It's 2018. People don't really use optical media anymore.
They do, actually.
But what actually matters in this discussion is mkisofs and the iso9660 image format with a boot option, because firmwares have learnt to understand it even for non-optical storage.
Ah, good point. But I thought that the openSUSE DVD image did some tricks to be bootable both from real DVD and USB stick? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:50 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/21/2018 11:37 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Do you have problems with facts?
I guess that you like to claim that "the fork" happened because of a license change in cdrtools.... the usual lie spread by Debian people.
Just stupid that the license change happened two years _after_ Debian started their buggy fork and after two years of constant personal attacks from Debian. As you see, the license change was done in defence to Debians attacks. The only reason for the fork was the attempt of a person to get a job at Nero.
It's really entertaining to read your stories. Thanks!
That's not really relevant as most people use libburnia these days.
Why should people use something that supports less features than cdrtools?
People don't have to use anything. But distributions have the right to choose what they package and what they don't. They decided against cdrecord but that doesn't keep anyone of downloading cdrecord from your website and installing it. So I don't see the problem here.
People who like to get quality and reliability use cdrtools. I of course cannot prevent people from using different software. A distro that does not include legal reliable software like cdrtools however is a bad distro because it makes it harder for people to get what they like.
It's 2018. People don't really use optical media anymore.
Uhh... I bought a brand new state of the art Asus (Republic of Gamers) laptop 2 weeks ago. For whatever reason I couldn't get a openSUSE thumbdrive to boot. I threw in a openSUSE DVD and had no issues. I'm not saying I tried very hard to get the thumb drive to work. Why would I when the DVD worked on the first try. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Tue, 20 Feb 2018, Dave Plater wrote:
On 20/02/18 14:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 7:13 AM, Adam Majer <amajer@suse.de> wrote:
Could we get wodim removed from openSUSE:Factory? It has no upstream since almost beginning and now exists as a zombie. [..] Red Hat is (sort of) a maintainer for this, as they keep up with it for the media creation tools in Fedora[1], which we should be synchronized with.
according to https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/cdrkit/commits/master it's mostly, if not all, just fixing build-failures for the last 5+ years. And this looks "nice" too: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1243441
KIWI also requires specifically genisoimage to work correctly (as does my livecd-tools, but that doesn't matter right now). Both of us (Marcus Schaefer for KIWI, and myself for livecd-tools) are exploring a migration path to xorriso, which provides equivalent features and are more actively maintained.
Please don't drop wodim/cdrkit at this time.
I thought that kiwi 8 was capable of using mkisofs from cdrtools.
genisoimage is derived from mkisofs from cdrtools 2.01.01a08. There should be few, if any, options that mkisofs does not have. -dnh -- Beeping is cute, if you are in the office ;) -- Alan Cox -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
David Haller <dnh@opensuse.org> wrote:
I thought that kiwi 8 was capable of using mkisofs from cdrtools.
genisoimage is derived from mkisofs from cdrtools 2.01.01a08. There should be few, if any, options that mkisofs does not have.
More than half of all edits since the creation if mkisofs in September 1993 have been done past May 2004, which is the time when Debian started their fork. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/20/2018 01:27 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
Both of us (Marcus Schaefer for KIWI, and myself for livecd-tools) are exploring a migration path to xorriso, which provides equivalent features and are more actively maintained.
Please don't drop wodim/cdrkit at this time.
OK, but setting Prefers: for openSUSE:Factory to use cdrtools binaries instead of wodim first shouldn't be a problem? Then we can fix other problems later. - Adam -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Adam Majer <amajer@suse.de> wrote:
OK, but setting Prefers: for openSUSE:Factory to use cdrtools binaries instead of wodim first shouldn't be a problem?
Mmm, during the past 5 years, I remember one single bug-report: A chinese user reported that longer UDF filenames with only chinese characters have been clobbered at the end of tne name. After this has been fixed in mkisofs, the same user comlained again but I then could verify a still unfixed Linux kernel bug. There is no problem when mounting the same filesystem image on Solaris. There have been many other bug-fixes in the same time frame, but these problems have been discovered as a result of systematic testing. Since there are no open bugs, why do you believe that there may be a problem?
Then we can fix other problems later.
Which problems? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/21/2018 11:51 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Adam Majer <amajer@suse.de> wrote:
Then we can fix other problems later.
Which problems?
I was only referring to interoperability issues that can crop up between packages when you change dependencies. I was not referring to any bugs in cdrtools itself. - Adam -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Adam Majer <amajer@suse.de> wrote:
On 02/21/2018 11:51 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Adam Majer <amajer@suse.de> wrote:
Then we can fix other problems later.
Which problems?
I was only referring to interoperability issues that can crop up between packages when you change dependencies. I was not referring to any bugs in cdrtools itself.
OK, I hope that in case you have problems, you send a bug report to me. Smaller problems are usually fixed immediately, larger problems like the problem with the chinese characters may take a bit longer (in this case a weekend). ...but unreported bugs may stay forever :-( Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sf.net/projects/schilytools/files/' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (21)
-
Adam Majer -
Andreas Schwab -
Anton Aylward -
Axel Braun -
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Plater -
David Haller -
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar -
Felix Miata -
Frederic Crozat -
Greg Freemyer -
Jan Engelhardt -
Joerg Schilling -
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz -
Liam Proven -
Neal Gompa -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Simon Becherer -
Stefan Seyfried