Re: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

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Robert Schweikert

10 Dec 2009 10 Dec '09

15:03

Robert Schweikert Software Engineer Consultant rschweikert@novell.com 781-464-8147 Novell Making IT Work As One

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Andreas Jaeger 12/10/09 9:52 AM >>> On Thursday 10 December 2009 15:03:45 Jano Kupec wrote: On 12/10/2009 11:05 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote: On Wednesday 02 December 2009 18:57:45 Lubos Lunak wrote: [...] The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I also suggest to have a factory development page that links to all these announcements, so that we reference them from one place. What do you think?

What i don't like about the wiki is that it is hard to see incremental changes to it, like you would see on a dedicated announce mailing list. And you can reply to the announcement (in-lining the text) and further discuss on opensuse-factory.

I agree with Lars in the other mail, that we should use some exising mailing lists, because we have too many, but opensuse-announce is for user announcments, what we discuss here is more a developer thing. I still see opensuse-factory for discussion (RFC or otherwise tagged mails) and some dedicated list only for announcmements (low traffic, only the results) as the best solution.

But i'm also fine with just discussion on opensuse-factory and the wiki. 'RFC' in the subject is fine for me.

My proposal was to discuss on -factory and just have a pointer in the wiki to it so that somebody can easily lookup these some time later - so I think we're in agreement, Andreas I like the wiki and I like [ANNOUNCE] as a prefix. I still think we should have a more prominent place for this information on the main page (www.opensuse.org). With the wiki in place a link to the wiki page should suffice. I am mostly thinking of users not subscribed to any mailing list and people not necessarily in tune with checking the wiki for important information. Robert

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Andreas Jaeger

10 Dec 10 Dec

15:16

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On Thursday 10 December 2009 16:03:55 Robert Schweikert wrote:

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I like the wiki and I like [ANNOUNCE] as a prefix. I still think we should have a more prominent place for this information on the main page (www.opensuse.org). With the wiki in place a link to the wiki page should suffice. I am mostly thinking of users not subscribed to any mailing list and people not necessarily in tune with checking the wiki for important information.

We're discussing mainly changes relevant during development of the distribution - what you suggest sounds to me like usage of the distribution. That's normally a different topic where the development changes will be a good input for - but some development changes will not be visible to users at all. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Rob OpenSuSE

17:27

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/10 Andreas Jaeger :

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On Thursday 10 December 2009 16:03:55 Robert Schweikert wrote:

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I like the wiki and I like [ANNOUNCE] as a prefix. I still think we should have a more prominent place for this information on the main page (www.opensuse.org). With the wiki in place a link to the wiki page should suffice. I am mostly thinking of users not subscribed to any mailing list and people not necessarily in tune with checking the wiki for important information.

We're discussing mainly changes relevant during development of the distribution - what you suggest sounds to me like usage of the distribution. That's normally a different topic where the development changes will be a good input for - but some development changes will not be visible to users at all.

I managed to edit the Wiki and link to your page from the Factory one, so the Wiki has improved over the last year. In past this was very problematic. Where the Wiki page works very well, is for community ppl to refer to, finding out what direction the next release goes in, which can stimulate interest and testing. The [ANNOUNCE] for changes ought to simplify the release notes, and having something easily filterable in the Factory list, gets you automatic asynchronous notification, that "polling a Webpage" does not. Those things are then "decisions" of things that are implementable, rather than vaguer discussions with more doubt involved. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

11 Dec 11 Dec

01:37

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On Thursday 10 December 2009 11:27:40 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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The [ANNOUNCE] for changes ought to simplify the release notes, and having something easily filterable in the Factory list, gets you automatic asynchronous notification, that "polling a Webpage" does not.

There is a article History that can be consulted for any changes. To have use of article history without much digging, people editing page should leave note in the Summary field below edit window, what the change is about. It would be even better to add sign with --~~~~ which will leave wiki ID and date change was written, so if there is any questions, one can contact author of announcement without digging in the article history. Digging history without summaries is slow process, so whoever adds new lines to http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News , please fill summary too. -- Regards Rajko, openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE

07:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/11 Rajko M. :

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On Thursday 10 December 2009 11:27:40 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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The [ANNOUNCE] for changes ought to simplify the release notes, and having something easily filterable in the Factory list, gets you automatic asynchronous notification, that "polling a Webpage" does not.

There is a article History that can be consulted for any changes.

Still polling the web page, RSS was made so ppl can see when new articles are available.

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To have use of article history without much digging, people editing page should leave note in the Summary field below edit window, what the change is about.

It would be even better to add sign with --~~~~ which will leave wiki ID and date change was written, so if there is any questions, one can contact author of announcement without digging in the article history.

Digging history without summaries is slow process, so whoever adds new lines to http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News , please fill summary too.

Now you're adding unenforceable rules that I will totally forget, because I probably will only edit Wiki occasionally. That's never going to work, because it's against human nature. The Wiki encourages quick changes, and it looks lke you're done, without doing those extras. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jano Kupec

10:43

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On 12/11/2009 08:54 AM, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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2009/12/11 Rajko M. :

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On Thursday 10 December 2009 11:27:40 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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The [ANNOUNCE] for changes ought to simplify the release notes, and having something easily filterable in the Factory list, gets you automatic asynchronous notification, that "polling a Webpage" does not.

There is a article History that can be consulted for any changes.

Still polling the web page, RSS was made so ppl can see when new articles are available.

...
To have use of article history without much digging, people editing page should leave note in the Summary field below edit window, what the change is about.

It would be even better to add sign with --~~~~ which will leave wiki ID and date change was written, so if there is any questions, one can contact author of announcement without digging in the article history.

Digging history without summaries is slow process, so whoever adds new lines to http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News , please fill summary too.

Now you're adding unenforceable rules that I will totally forget, because I probably will only edit Wiki occasionally.

That's never going to work, because it's against human nature. The Wiki encourages quick changes, and it looks lke you're done, without doing those extras.

Also the wiki history is written even if you only change a single character on the page. And even with good summaries, you need to view the diff to actually fetch the info. Quite unusable for tracking the announce info. -- cheers, jano Ján Kupec YaST team ---------------------------------------------------------(PGP)--- Key ID: 637EE901 Fingerprint: 93B9 C79B 2D20 51C3 800B E09B 8048 46A6 637E E901 ---------------------------------------------------------(IRC)--- Server: irc.freenode.net Nick: jniq Channels: #zypp #yast #suse #susecz ---------------------------------------------------------(EOF)---

Rajko M.

12 Dec 12 Dec

00:44

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On Friday 11 December 2009 04:43:08 Jano Kupec wrote:

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Also the wiki history is written even if you only change a single character on the page.

Which suppose to be marked as minor change and you don't look at it. All problems with usability of article history are coming from user habit to ignore Summary, leaving it blank, then using Save instead of Preview, which creates more history entries then necessary. So, I do agree that article history is often useless, but it is how we made it, not because of some inherent weakness of that feature. In the new wiki version the only weakness, that software doesn't write Summary, is to some extent corrected. -- Regards Rajko, openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE

10:39

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/12 Rajko M. :

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All problems with usability of article history are coming from user habit to ignore Summary, leaving it blank, then using Save instead of Preview, which creates more history entries then necessary.

May be something done similarly to lwn.net comment editor would avoid that. Basically when you're editting a comment, you only have a "Preview" button, then it shows you how it will look and offers a "Publish" button. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd

10:58

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

Le 12/12/2009 11:39, Rob OpenSuSE a écrit :

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2009/12/12 Rajko M. :

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All problems with usability of article history are coming from user habit to ignore Summary, leaving it blank, then using Save instead of Preview, which creates more history entries then necessary.

May be something done similarly to lwn.net comment editor would avoid that.

Basically when you're editting a comment, you only have a "Preview" button, then it shows you how it will look and offers a "Publish" button.

Rob

if you don't want to loose data and have to rewrite an article, you have to save as often as possible. making it possible to save a draft would be invaluable. MoinMoin wiki do this, saving a draft each tim one preview an article. Do mediawiki do this now (it did not last time I used it) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

21:20

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On Saturday 12 December 2009 04:58:14 jdd wrote:

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Le 12/12/2009 11:39, Rob OpenSuSE a écrit : ...

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May be something done similarly to lwn.net comment editor would avoid that. Basically when you're editting a comment, you only have a "Preview" button, then it shows you how it will look and offers a "Publish" button.

It would be good, but I don't know is it possible. The http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Configuration_settings doesn't list anything like that, which basically means that Mediawiki software should be changed to accomplish that.

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Rob

if you don't want to loose data and have to rewrite an article, you have to save as often as possible. making it possible to save a draft would be invaluable. MoinMoin wiki do this, saving a draft each tim one preview an article. Do mediawiki do this now (it did not last time I used it)

If it logs you out automatically, then log in and go back to your edit window using a *browser* back button, not the link provided by screen that comes up after login. I use that all the time and it works even if I'm doing something else and browser goes to empty edit screen automatically. It is just one more press on a browser back button and then Preview or Save work as expected. Nothing is lost.

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jdd

-- Regards Rajko, openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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participants (6)

Andreas Jaeger
Jano Kupec
jdd
Rajko M.
Rob OpenSuSE
Robert Schweikert