[opensuse-factory] A modest proposal: Make nomodeset the default for distributions

Larry Finger

13 Sep 2011 13 Sep '11

01:01

Although the KMS video drivers have improved a lot, there are still a lot of nVidia adapters for which nouveau fails to provide any useful graphics screens. For new users, the failure to boot to a meaningful display is frustrating. The problem used to affect only persons that had implemented the proprietary closed-source drivers, and their graphics failed when the kernel changed. They could be warned in advance because a lot of them came to the forums for help in getting the propriety driver installed. With KMS, people are having trouble with their initial look at an openSUSE version. I expect many decide that openSUSE is flawed and move on to other distros. I propose two fixes/workarounds: (1) Make the GRUB option "nomodeset" be the default for all installation media. There will be very little impact on the NET install CD or the DVD install disks. The lower graphics performance for the Live CDs will be a small penalty to pay for the benefit of getting a great many more systems to boot. If the "nomodeset" appears after the "VGA=" on the GRUB options line, it will be easy to advise people to try removing it when booting. They will quickly learn if they need it or not. (2) In the installation process for GRUB, detect the presence of an nVidia adapter and pop-up a screen advising the user that the installed system may need the nomodeset option in order to boot. I single out nVidia because nouveau seems to handle many fewer models than the KMS drivers for the others. I don't have any ATI adapters, and the one i915 system I have boots without trouble. One of my nVidia-equipped systems boots to a blank screen with nouveau, and the other corrupts the alternate terminals. I have no doubt that the KMS developers will have drivers that handle nearly all adapters in the near future. As someone having experience with reverse engineering, I'm really impressed with the progress, but kernels 3.0 and 3.1 still need some work. As we can help our users get a more satisfactory experience with quite small changes, I think we should do so. Thanks, Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Anders Johansson

13 Sep 13 Sep

01:25

On Monday 12 September 2011 20:01:07 Larry Finger wrote:

...

Although the KMS video drivers have improved a lot, there are still a lot of nVidia adapters for which nouveau fails to provide any useful graphics screens. For new users, the failure to boot to a meaningful display is frustrating. The problem used to affect only persons that had implemented the proprietary closed-source drivers, and their graphics failed when the kernel changed. They could be warned in advance because a lot of them came to the forums for help in getting the propriety driver installed. With KMS, people are having trouble with their initial look at an openSUSE version. I expect many decide that openSUSE is flawed and move on to other distros.

I propose two fixes/workarounds:

(1) Make the GRUB option "nomodeset" be the default for all installation media.

As far as I've read, recent versions of the nouveau X driver will refuse to load if you don't have kms in the nouveau kernel module, so without that you fall back to either the vesa driver or the nv driver, both of which are rather boring defaults. If it's needed, I'd suggest having it as a failsafe boot option, not a default Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Finger

01:42

On 09/12/2011 08:25 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

As far as I've read, recent versions of the nouveau X driver will refuse to load if you don't have kms in the nouveau kernel module, so without that you fall back to either the vesa driver or the nv driver, both of which are rather boring defaults. If it's needed, I'd suggest having it as a failsafe boot option, not a default

Yes, vesa and nv are boring, but they do work. In fact, my main machine uses nv and has never run anything else other than nouveau by mistake when I forgot the nomodeset option. Failsafe does invoke "nomodeset", but the failsafe kernel is not one of the boot options for the KDE Live CD. Yes, you can get vesa from F3, but that takes quite a bit of sophistication on the user's part to get there. I want something that a refugee from Windows, or one of their users that is curious about Linux can use to always get a positive result. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Roger Luedecke

02:27

On Monday, September 12, 2011 06:42:55 PM Larry Finger wrote:

...

On 09/12/2011 08:25 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...
As far as I've read, recent versions of the nouveau X driver will refuse to load if you don't have kms in the nouveau kernel module, so without that you fall back to either the vesa driver or the nv driver, both of which are rather boring defaults. If it's needed, I'd suggest having it as a failsafe boot option, not a default

Yes, vesa and nv are boring, but they do work. In fact, my main machine uses nv and has never run anything else other than nouveau by mistake when I forgot the nomodeset option.

Failsafe does invoke "nomodeset", but the failsafe kernel is not one of the boot options for the KDE Live CD. Yes, you can get vesa from F3, but that takes quite a bit of sophistication on the user's part to get there. I want something that a refugee from Windows, or one of their users that is curious about Linux can use to always get a positive result.

Larry It sounds reasonable then, to have a failsafe boot on the Live media for both Live Dekstop and probably the Installer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Finger

15:00

On 09/12/2011 09:27 PM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

It sounds reasonable then, to have a failsafe boot on the Live media for both Live Dekstop and probably the Installer.

That is a good idea. I like the nomodeset default better, but a user whose system did not boot is likely to try the failsafe option. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

08:12

Am Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:01:07 -0500 schrieb Larry Finger :

...

(1) Make the GRUB option "nomodeset" be the default for all installation media. There will be very little impact on the NET install CD or the DVD install disks. The lower graphics performance for the Live CDs will be a small penalty to pay

You will get no X at all on intel chipsets IIRC. Punishing vendors who support linux for vendors who do not support linux seems lik a stupid thing to do. Just tell people to not buy NVidia? No NVidia hardware around here and no problems *since years*. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

08:38

Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:01:07 -0500 schrieb Larry Finger :

...
(1) Make the GRUB option "nomodeset" be the default for all installation media. There will be very little impact on the NET install CD or the DVD install disks. The lower graphics performance for the Live CDs will be a small penalty to pay

You will get no X at all on intel chipsets IIRC.

nomodeset works fine here on 82945G. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

13:42

On 2011/09/13 10:12 (GMT+0200) Stefan Seyfried composed:

...

Punishing vendors who support linux for vendors who do not support linux seems lik a stupid thing to do.

...

Just tell people to not buy NVidia?

...

No NVidia hardware around here and no problems *since years*.

"No problems" seems an exaggeration. All but three of the gfxchips in my many test systems are MGA, Intel & ATI. I subscribe to ATI & Intel mailing lists. Many, including me, certainly have had problems without using NVidia, just not with the frequency and persistence of those using NVidia. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire

13:51

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

"No problems" seems an exaggeration. All but three of the gfxchips in my many test systems are MGA, Intel & ATI. I subscribe to ATI & Intel mailing lists. Many, including me, certainly have had problems without using NVidia, just not with the frequency and persistence of those using NVidia.

I don't get it. For me, nVidia has been working best with linux, including SUSE. I'm talking desktops, but still, nVidia's drivers (proprietary) are super stable. Don't get confused, developing proprietary drivers *is* supporting linux. We all wish opensource drivers, but proprietary drivers that work is a lot better than opensource ones that don't. I applaud nouveau, but it's still not stable enough for me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Finger

14:56

On 09/13/2011 08:51 AM, Claudio Freire wrote:

...

I don't get it. For me, nVidia has been working best with linux, including SUSE. I'm talking desktops, but still, nVidia's drivers (proprietary) are super stable.

Don't get confused, developing proprietary drivers *is* supporting linux.

We all wish opensource drivers, but proprietary drivers that work is a lot better than opensource ones that don't.

Yes, but they are not an option when you wish to keep your kernel untainted so that your bug reports will be accepted.

...

I applaud nouveau, but it's still not stable enough for me.

The start of this thread had nothing to do with the closed-source drivers. They cannot be distributed with openSUSE's installation media, thus they will never be available at installation time. The whole idea is to get a user's sysem up and running, and then let them decide if they need better graphics performance. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jean-Daniel Dodin

14:57

to come back to the orginal question, I support adding nomodeset to any default as long as the driver is not debugged. we need working install!! and by the way, we need also working live medium! thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire

16:03

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Larry Finger wrote:

...

On 09/13/2011 08:51 AM, Claudio Freire wrote:

...
I don't get it. For me, nVidia has been working best with linux, including SUSE. I'm talking desktops, but still, nVidia's drivers (proprietary) are super stable.

Don't get confused, developing proprietary drivers *is* supporting linux.

We all wish opensource drivers, but proprietary drivers that work is a lot better than opensource ones that don't.

Yes, but they are not an option when you wish to keep your kernel untainted so that your bug reports will be accepted.

Good point.

...

...
I applaud nouveau, but it's still not stable enough for me.

The start of this thread had nothing to do with the closed-source drivers. They cannot be distributed with openSUSE's installation media, thus they will never be available at installation time. The whole idea is to get a user's sysem up and running, and then let them decide if they need better graphics performance.

I never had any problem with the low-performance vesa driver during install. The problem is with the live CD. It really needs a working, performance setup. I always use it to check if the distro works with my hardware. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jean-Daniel Dodin

14 Sep 14 Sep

09:15

Claudio Freire wrote:

...

The problem is with the live CD. It really needs a working, performance setup. I always use it to check if the distro works with my hardware.

did you try the factory live (specially on usb device)? It's really faster jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Roger Luedecke

13 Sep 13 Sep

15:28

On Tuesday, September 13, 2011 06:42:24 AM Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2011/09/13 10:12 (GMT+0200) Stefan Seyfried composed:

...
Punishing vendors who support linux for vendors who do not support linux seems lik a stupid thing to do.

Just tell people to not buy NVidia?

No NVidia hardware around here and no problems *since years*.

"No problems" seems an exaggeration. All but three of the gfxchips in my many test systems are MGA, Intel & ATI. I subscribe to ATI & Intel mailing lists. Many, including me, certainly have had problems without using NVidia, just not with the frequency and persistence of those using NVidia. I always look for NVidia, since everything else is shyte for performance and NVidia gives me NO issues. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

15:54

On 2011/09/13 08:28 (GMT-0700) Roger Luedecke composed:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...
On 2011/09/13 10:12 (GMT+0200) Stefan Seyfried composed:

...

...
...
No NVidia hardware around here and no problems *since years*.

...

...
"No problems" seems an exaggeration. All but three of the gfxchips in my many test systems are MGA, Intel& ATI. I subscribe to ATI& Intel mailing lists. Many, including me, certainly have had problems without using NVidia, just not with the frequency and persistence of those using NVidia.

...

I always look for NVidia, since everything else is shyte for performance and NVidia gives me NO issues.

Not everyone's definition of performance is the same. Here, anything not working at all "out of the box" is performing zero. I have 3 NVidia cards (out of 40+ installed). Two only work using NV driver and nomodeset. The other fails regardless what I attempt, and what I attempt always excludes proprietary (never available out of the free "box") drivers. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jean-Daniel Dodin

17:08

Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2011/09/13 08:28 (GMT-0700) Roger Luedecke composed:

...

3 NVidia cards (out of 40+ installed). Two only work using NV driver and nomodeset. The other fails regardless what I attempt, and what I attempt always excludes proprietary (never available out of the free "box") drivers.

you are unlucky. I had nearly only nvidia cards, all working with open source driver and only have had the nomodeset problem with factory (no problem with 11.4) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

17:51

On 2011/09/13 19:08 (GMT+0200) Jean-Daniel Dodin composed:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...
3 NVidia cards (out of 40+ installed). Two only work using NV driver and nomodeset. The other fails regardless what I attempt, and what I attempt always excludes proprietary (never available out of the free "box") drivers.

...

you are unlucky. I had nearly only nvidia cards, all working with open source driver and only have had the nomodeset problem with factory (no problem with 11.4)

My luck is little different than that of those filing Freedesktop, Kernel, Mandriva & Fedora bugs, and reporting on the Xorg, Fedora test and Cooker mailing lists, so similar trouble here is anything but surprising, particularly since Factory is using an antique Xorg version well behind the progress in kernels and DRM. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Finger

15:00

On 09/13/2011 03:12 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:01:07 -0500 schrieb Larry Finger:

...
(1) Make the GRUB option "nomodeset" be the default for all installation media. There will be very little impact on the NET install CD or the DVD install disks. The lower graphics performance for the Live CDs will be a small penalty to pay

You will get no X at all on intel chipsets IIRC.

That is not true. My HP Mini 110 netbook with an Intel 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML graphics adapter that normally uses i915 boots just fine with the nomodeset option. Actually, i915 loaded despite that option.

...

Punishing vendors who support linux for vendors who do not support linux seems lik a stupid thing to do.

Agreed.

...

Just tell people to not buy NVidia?

If that is the case, then we tell all the people that already have nVidia equipment the "openSUSE is not for you!". Is that what we want to say?

...

No NVidia hardware around here and no problems *since years*.

I do fine here as well, even with nVidia, but you and I have a bit more knowledge than the general user. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Roger Luedecke

15:27

On Tuesday, September 13, 2011 01:12:09 AM Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:01:07 -0500

schrieb Larry Finger :

...
(1) Make the GRUB option "nomodeset" be the default for all installation media. There will be very little impact on the NET install CD or the DVD install disks. The lower graphics performance for the Live CDs will be a small penalty to pay

You will get no X at all on intel chipsets IIRC. Punishing vendors who support linux for vendors who do not support linux seems lik a stupid thing to do.

Just tell people to not buy NVidia?

No NVidia hardware around here and no problems *since years*. Thats why there is a failsafe option, and the normal one. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Duncan Mac-Vicar P.

09:45

On 09/13/2011 03:01 AM, Larry Finger wrote:

...

Although the KMS video drivers have improved a lot, there are still a lot of nVidia adapters for which nouveau fails to provide any useful graphics screens. For new users, the failure to boot to a meaningful display is frustrating. The problem used to affect only persons that had implemented the proprietary closed-source drivers, and their graphics failed when the kernel changed. They could be warned in advance because a lot of them came to the forums for help in getting the propriety driver installed. With KMS, people are having trouble with their initial look at an openSUSE version. I expect many decide that openSUSE is flawed and move on to other distros.

The nouveau problems (I also suffered from this black screens) are SUSE specific. I tried Fedora Alpha and it works fine on my problematic machines. So I would put the work on having a more consistent nouveau/dri/kernel stack that works, even if this means to keep track what patches and versions are other distributions combining. It may be worth to explore a more failsafe way for installation, yes. Duncan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

13:47

On 2011/09/13 11:45 (GMT+0200) Duncan Mac-Vicar P. composed:

...

The nouveau problems (I also suffered from this black screens) are SUSE specific.

This may have to do with Factory retaining the same antique 1.9.3 Xorg version that was in the 11.4 release, and dates back to synergy with 2.6.37 and older kernels. Much in kernel and DRM has evolved since 1.9.3 was current, so Nouveau trouble now using 3.0 & 3.1 kernels is no surprise to me. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Joerg Mayer

13:51

New subject: [opensuse-factory] A modest proposal: Make nomodeset the default for distributions

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 09:47:20AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

...

This may have to do with Factory retaining the same antique 1.9.3 Xorg version that was in the 11.4 release, and dates back to synergy with 2.6.37 and older kernels. Much in kernel and DRM has evolved since 1.9.3 was current, so Nouveau trouble now using 3.0 & 3.1 kernels is no surprise to me.

I'm using os11.4 with newer X (and Mesa): 11 | X11-Xorg | X11-Xorg | Yes | No | 80 | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/XOrg/openSUSE_11.4/ | There also exists: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/XOrg/openSUSE_Factory/ Maybe test that, and if it works then try to get Factory to finally update to this newer version. Ciao Joerg -- Joerg Mayer We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Roman Bysh

15:45

On 09/13/2011 05:45 AM, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

...

On 09/13/2011 03:01 AM, Larry Finger wrote:

...
Although the KMS video drivers have improved a lot, there are still a lot of nVidia adapters for which nouveau fails to provide any useful graphics screens. For new users, the failure to boot to a meaningful display is frustrating. The problem used to affect only persons that had implemented the proprietary closed-source drivers, and their graphics failed when the kernel changed. They could be warned in advance because a lot of them came to the forums for help in getting the propriety driver installed. With KMS, people are having trouble with their initial look at an openSUSE version. I expect many decide that openSUSE is flawed and move on to other distros.

The nouveau problems (I also suffered from this black screens) are SUSE specific. I tried Fedora Alpha and it works fine on my problematic machines. So I would put the work on having a more consistent nouveau/dri/kernel stack that works, even if this means to keep track what patches and versions are other distributions combining.

It may be worth to explore a more failsafe way for installation, yes.

Duncan

It's worth exploring this important issue with the Redhat people. Yes? Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White

14 Sep 14 Sep

20:15

On 9/12/2011 9:01 PM, Larry Finger wrote:

...

Although the KMS video drivers have improved a lot, there are still a lot of nVidia adapters for which nouveau fails to provide any useful graphics screens. For new users, the failure to boot to a meaningful display is frustrating. The problem used to affect only persons that had implemented the proprietary closed-source drivers, and their graphics failed when the kernel changed. They could be warned in advance because a lot of them came to the forums for help in getting the propriety driver installed. With KMS, people are having trouble with their initial look at an openSUSE version. I expect many decide that openSUSE is flawed and move on to other distros.

I propose two fixes/workarounds:

(1) Make the GRUB option "nomodeset" be the default for all installation media. There will be very little impact on the NET install CD or the DVD install disks. The lower graphics performance for the Live CDs will be a small penalty to pay for the benefit of getting a great many more systems to boot. If the "nomodeset" appears after the "VGA=" on the GRUB options line, it will be easy to advise people to try removing it when booting. They will quickly learn if they need it or not.

(2) In the installation process for GRUB, detect the presence of an nVidia adapter and pop-up a screen advising the user that the installed system may need the nomodeset option in order to boot. I single out nVidia because nouveau seems to handle many fewer models than the KMS drivers for the others. I don't have any ATI adapters, and the one i915 system I have boots without trouble. One of my nVidia-equipped systems boots to a blank screen with nouveau, and the other corrupts the alternate terminals.

I have no doubt that the KMS developers will have drivers that handle nearly all adapters in the near future. As someone having experience with reverse engineering, I'm really impressed with the progress, but kernels 3.0 and 3.1 still need some work. As we can help our users get a more satisfactory experience with quite small changes, I think we should do so.

Thanks,

Larry

It's not just nvidia. I have boxes with integrated intel video that crash (not merely no dislay or bad display) without "i915.modeset=0". Luckily the box was already known to work fine on earlier kernels and it wasn't a fresh install on unknown new hardware. So just by that good luck I DIDN'T waste a lot of time thinking I had bad ram or any other hardware problem that would normally be the far more likely thing to suspect before you start thinking maybe this big professional distro was broken. I never actually tried "nomodeset" on that box yet, I hastily googled, found i915.modeset=0, it worked, and the box has been running since then. So if "nomodeset" will end up doing the same thing, then I'm with you all the way. Crash, or anything else even a little unexpected, on boot, when the hardware isn't actually bad, when there exists a known more robust option, from the default installer or livecd, or the setup created by default, is pretty bad. What bugged me about that episode is the same thing that has always bugged me about opensuse on all my boxes, which is that I don't feel that I should even have to worry about possible graphics card problems when I don't even use the vga port at all. All my boxes are serial console. The bios sets up serial console, I choose "minimal text/only system" during install, grub has "console=ttyS0,115200n8r" Yet I still have to fight the installer to keep the dreaded gfxboot message file declaration out of menu.lst. It puts a message file line in there no matter that I clearly selected "text-only system" and no matter what I put in, or don't put in, the message file field in the bootloader screen, even if I use the advanced menu option to edit menu.lst directly to remove it. Only way is to do it outside of yast on another ssh session after yast writes the bootloader files but before the reboot. I have to manually search, remove and taboo all the gfxboot, splash, and branding packages every time. So, keeping with the pattern above, I very much disliked having yet another thing appear out of nowhere and start trying to futz with the video card without being asked, and not only screw up my console which was bad enough, really that's inexcusable already, but now actually crash the box during boot? When I didn't go out of my way to ask for it? This isn't about "gee, some new software was buggy? so what? that's unavoidable dummy. welcome to computers." or "that's what the failsafe boot option is for". This is about procedure and totally unnecessary, un asked for, artificially created, actively inflicted problems, due as far as I can see to loss of standards. This particular bug is in a new feature that wasn't asked for and whose purpose is merely the luxuries of increased video performance and fancy graphical display modes on a _text_ console. If the latest kernel had some bug in one of the more basic subsystems, well you can't help that. That can happen any time. You can help the fact that you know these graphics modes don't work everywhere for many reasons: * video card driver support * serial / net consoles * monitors / kvms / ip-kvms that can't handle the modes even if the video card and drivers can and even if they think the display can from dpms. If they don't work everywhere, then they have no business being default and they _certainly_ have no business being so hard to eradicate even when the admin knows he needs to override the defaults. Even if it's the default it should at least be a given that when the installer chooses "text-only system" they get a text-only system. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire

20:19

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

This isn't about "gee, some new software was buggy? so what? that's unavoidable dummy. welcome to computers." or "that's what the failsafe boot option is for". This is about procedure and totally unnecessary, un asked for, artificially created, actively inflicted problems, due as far as I can see to loss of standards. This particular bug is in a new feature that wasn't asked for and whose purpose is merely the luxuries of increased video performance and fancy graphical display modes on a _text_ console. If the latest kernel had some bug in one of the more basic subsystems, well you can't help that. That can happen any time. You can help the fact that you know these graphics modes don't work everywhere for many reasons:

AFAIK, you can avoid that by adding vga=1 (or whatever mode fancies you). Not sure it's enough to prevent the crash, but it certainly disables the fancy console. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

21:54

On 2011/09/14 17:19 (GMT-0300) Claudio Freire composed:

...

AFAIK, you can avoid that by adding vga=1 (or whatever mode fancies you). Not sure it's enough to prevent the crash, but it certainly disables the fancy console.

With Intel, ATI or NVidia gfxchips, setting framebuffer with VGA= on kernel line only works for more than a few seconds for 11.3 & up kernels in conjunction with nomodeset or chip-specific KMS disabling (e.g. i915.modeset=0). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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participants (12)

Anders Johansson
Brian K. White
Claudio Freire
Duncan Mac-Vicar P.
Felix Miata
Jean-Daniel Dodin
Joerg Mayer
Larry Finger
Per Jessen
Roger Luedecke
Roman Bysh
Stefan Seyfried