[opensuse-factory] Accessible installer
The GNOME team set up a wiki page for 11.0 ideas. One of the requests is for accessibility options to be available in the YaST installer, in particular: * Screen magnifier - shows a magnified version of the portion of the screen you're pointing at. * Screen reader - reads the labels and input text out loud. * Braille output - provides tactile display of labels and input text via a special device. In GNOME, we use Orca to accomplish this, together with the at-spi infrastructure. It is a Python app. I don't know what Qt/KDE uses, but I imagine something similar. So I have some questions for the YaST/installer guys: * What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured? * If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0? * Given that the installer is a Qt app, what technologies could we use? Also see http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Ideas/11.0#Accessibility -- Hans Petter --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch 28 November 2007 schrieb Hans Petter Jansson:
The GNOME team set up a wiki page for 11.0 ideas. One of the requests is for accessibility options to be available in the YaST installer, in particular:
* Screen magnifier - shows a magnified version of the portion of the screen you're pointing at.
* Screen reader - reads the labels and input text out loud.
* Braille output - provides tactile display of labels and input text via a special device.
In GNOME, we use Orca to accomplish this, together with the at-spi infrastructure. It is a Python app. I don't know what Qt/KDE uses, but I imagine something similar.
So I have some questions for the YaST/installer guys:
* What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured?
* If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0?
* Given that the installer is a Qt app, what technologies could we use?
For openSUSE accessibility is not a too hot topic I would say. And taking that all your screen readers, braile output and magnifier apps would significantly increase the installation image and would be run from memory I kind of doubt that this is something that would be loved wildly. So I would suggest we leave accessibility installation to the live CD, even if that means that some options (like update) wouldn't be accesssible. BTW: Qt has an at-spi bridge, so you can use whatever apps you use under GNOME also in the installation (in theory). Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 09:18 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Mittwoch 28 November 2007 schrieb Hans Petter Jansson:
For openSUSE accessibility is not a too hot topic I would say. And taking that all your screen readers, braile output and magnifier apps would significantly increase the installation image and would be run from memory I kind of doubt that this is something that would be loved wildly.
So I would suggest we leave accessibility installation to the live CD, even if that means that some options (like update) wouldn't be accesssible.
We don't have to fit all the tools - just enough for, say, blind users to get by without human assistance. It would be nice to have some numbers on memory usage, at the very least, so we can know why it's not doable. I think the live CD should definitely be accessible. But it would be cool to have some support in the traditional installer too. It's not just about individual users, but also about organizations that have to comply with disability laws, and the bigger publicity picture - a bullet point for the corporate types that shows that we're ahead. -- Hans Petter --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag 29 November 2007 schrieb Hans Petter Jansson:
It's not just about individual users, but also about organizations that have to comply with disability laws, and the bigger publicity picture - a bullet point for the corporate types that shows that we're ahead. In the end it's one feature among others. And while it's certainly nice to have for the reasons you outline to have a distribution/installer for everyone, it's not a must have from my point of view.
As a matter of fact, as long as my wife can't install openSUSE without human assistance I don't see it as must have for blinds to be able to do it. I would be much more worried if they couldn't use the system and that's what we should concentrate on. And if I understand Darragh correctly, there is a lot left to do. So please don't let us waste our time in things you do once as long as things in everyday's life are broken. But as you said, having e.g. a magnifier should be a worthy first step. Greetings, Stephan P.S. Sorry for cross-posting, it wasn't me who started it. -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 29/11/2007 at 09:51, in message <200711291051.13912.coolo@novell.com>, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote: Am Donnerstag 29 November 2007 schrieb Hans Petter Jansson:
It's not just about individual users, but also about organizations that have to comply with disability laws, and the bigger publicity picture - a bullet point for the corporate types that shows that we're ahead. In the end it's one feature among others. And while it's certainly nice to have for the reasons you outline to have a distribution/installer for everyone, it's not a must have from my point of view.
Yes... From your point of view but if I may, your point of view is as someone who doesn't need to worry about how much productivity is lost because you need to get someone else from your office to help you with a basic installation of an operating system. I agree there is a lot to do, however from OpenSuSE's perspective, a lot of the gnome accessibility development is done by people in the Gnome, Orca and at-spi teams. OpenSuSE when you think of it hasn't really had to spend a lot of resources on accessibility. Making the installation and indeed yast it's self more accessible would go a long way toward making it a viable choice for a lot of users. Considering the possibilities that Yast offers, the evolution of accessibility in this tool would almost certainly make the distribution more welcomeing. With the recent advances in graphical accessibility in Linux in general, I don't believe making the OpenSuSE installer accessible would really take that much work from a developer who knew the system well. It would also pave the way for other enhancements in OpenSuSE.
As a matter of fact, as long as my wife can't install openSUSE without human
assistance I don't see it as must have for blinds to be able to do it. I would be much more worried if they couldn't use the system and that's what we should concentrate on. And if I understand Darragh correctly, there is a lot left to do. So please don't let us waste our time in things you do once as long as things in everyday's life are broken.
If this means that you would be willing to work on other areas of OpenSuSE accessibility then I would certainly welcome this advancement.
But as you said, having e.g. a magnifier should be a worthy first step.
A magnifier would still not provide eyes free access to the installation. IF you are going to work on magnifying the interface, why not take one small step further and provide the option of enabling feedback via synthesized speech for some of the more complicated parts of the installation. At the moment, I can memorise quite a lot of the parts of the installation. Example, when it lodes, I know the order of the boot menu, to choose the uk language I just press the up arrow and hit alt n for next. The main parts of the installation that I require assistance on are the timezone selection and the software and partition selector. I don't think anyone expects this problem to be solved over night however working on key stages of the installation and building the project up gradually would be better than doing nothing at all. Thanks Darragh Ó Héiligh OpenSuSE TEchnical Support. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Moin, On Nov 29, 07 10:32:35 +0000, Darragh O'Heiligh wrote:
On 29/11/2007 at 09:51, in message <200711291051.13912.coolo@novell.com>, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote: Am Donnerstag 29 November 2007 schrieb Hans Petter Jansson:
It's not just about individual users, but also about organizations that have to comply with disability laws, and the bigger publicity picture - a bullet point for the corporate types that shows that we're ahead. In the end it's one feature among others. And while it's certainly nice to have for the reasons you outline to have a distribution/installer for everyone, it's not a must have from my point of view.
Yes... From your point of view but if I may, your point of view is as someone who doesn't need to worry about how much productivity is lost because you need to get someone else from your office to help you with a basic installation of an operating system. I agree there is a lot to do,
Unfortunately, yes. There was a time when SUSE Linux was easy installable for visually handicapped persons (that's what I've been told, I can still see quite good with my eye so I can only party rate this).
however from OpenSuSE's perspective, a lot of the gnome accessibility development is done by people in the Gnome, Orca and at-spi teams. OpenSuSE when you think of it hasn't really had to spend a lot of resources on accessibility. Making the installation and indeed yast it's
I've one person working full-time on accessibility, and we plan to enhance the support for that quite during the next calendar year. I won't say that it will be the best, or even good, but it _will_ be better.
self more accessible would go a long way toward making it a viable choice for a lot of users. Considering the possibilities that Yast offers, the evolution of accessibility in this tool would almost certainly make the distribution more welcomeing.
With the recent advances in graphical accessibility in Linux in general, I don't believe making the OpenSuSE installer accessible would really take that much work from a developer who knew the system well. It would also pave the way for other enhancements in OpenSuSE.
Well, one tiny thing that I was told is not good is the fact that the machine automatically boots an installed system when you insert a CDRom for installation/update. For me as 'seeing' person it's quite clear when I have to press a button to change in the menu to 'update/installation', but if I close my eyes I have troubles with that.
As a matter of fact, as long as my wife can't install openSUSE without human assistance I don't see it as must have for blinds to be able to do it. I would be much more worried if they couldn't use the system and that's what we should concentrate on. And if I understand Darragh correctly, there is a lot left to do. So please don't let us waste our time in things you do once as long as things in everyday's life are broken.
If this means that you would be willing to work on other areas of OpenSuSE accessibility then I would certainly welcome this advancement.
Some people working on SUSE Linux care about that, yes. But a lot of work has to be done to fix the distros wrt accessibility. http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Ideas/11.0#Accessibility is a good starting point, yes, but there's still more I guess :( [...]
I don't think anyone expects this problem to be solved over night however working on key stages of the installation and building the project up gradually would be better than doing nothing at all.
We care. And if we have simplified and enhanced the installation enough that it's easy for visually handicapped users, than perhaps Coolo's wife will be able to install it, too. :)
Thanks
Darragh Ó Héiligh
ciao, Stefan -- Stefan Behlert, SUSE LINUX - a Novell business, --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Let's move to yast-devel. Dňa Wednesday 28 November 2007 04:23:55 Hans Petter Jansson ste napísal:
The GNOME team set up a wiki page for 11.0 ideas. One of the requests is for accessibility options to be available in the YaST installer, in particular:
* Screen magnifier - shows a magnified version of the portion of the screen you're pointing at.
* Screen reader - reads the labels and input text out loud.
* Braille output - provides tactile display of labels and input text via a special device.
In GNOME, we use Orca to accomplish this, together with the at-spi infrastructure. It is a Python app. I don't know what Qt/KDE uses, but I imagine something similar.
So I have some questions for the YaST/installer guys:
* What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured?
AFAIK, we have support for visually impaired people: - linuxrc can be run in linemode to allow screen readers - yast2 ncurses interface has high contrast color scheme available - there is support for braille peripherials
* If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0?
Depends on the technology. One constraint I see right away is the size of of inst-sys, we would need to do some magic there to keep it reasonably sized. First, we would need to know exactly what we want to support. The 3 points above? Stano
* Given that the installer is a Qt app, what technologies could we use?
Also see
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On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 09:21 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Dňa Wednesday 28 November 2007 04:23:55 Hans Petter Jansson ste napísal:
* What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured?
AFAIK, we have support for visually impaired people: - linuxrc can be run in linemode to allow screen readers - yast2 ncurses interface has high contrast color scheme available - there is support for braille peripherials
Is this easily available in the installer, though?
* If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0?
Depends on the technology. One constraint I see right away is the size of of inst-sys, we would need to do some magic there to keep it reasonably sized.
First, we would need to know exactly what we want to support. The 3 points above?
I think the screen reader would be the most useful component, since that seems to be what people who can't see at all use. I'm told such users currently need human assistance in order to install openSUSE. Braille would primarily be for people who are completely blind and deaf. The magnifier would be a nice bonus, but I don't think it's strictly required if we have the screen reader. Unfortunately, festival is pretty huge. Maybe espeak is smaller, or maybe we can pare it down somehow. -- Hans Petter --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 29/11/2007 at 00:16, in message <1196295371.16075.47.camel@kzerza.site>, Hans Petter Jansson <hpj@novell.com> wrote: On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 09:21 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote: Dňa Wednesday 28 November 2007 04:23:55 Hans Petter Jansson ste napísal:
* What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured?
AFAIK, we have support for visually impaired people: - linuxrc can be run in linemode to allow screen readers - yast2 ncurses interface has high contrast color scheme available - there is support for braille peripherials
Yes. there is support for a small number of Braille displays in the text based installer thanks to SBL however most newer displays are not supported and more to the point, most blind people do not own a Braille display or even depend on a braille display independantly for reading an interface. Most people use synthesized speech output offered by synthesizers such as Festival, Espeak FLite or other similar engines.
Is this easily available in the installer, though?
No. If you do not have a supported braille display SBL will not start. If you have one of the displays that are supported, SBL should start automatically. It's been my experience that mainly German displays are supported.
* If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0?
Depends on the technology. One constraint I see right away is the size of of
inst-sys, we would need to do some magic there to keep it reasonably sized.
First, we would need to know exactly what we want to support. The 3 points above?
I think the screen reader would be the most useful component, since that seems to be what people who can't see at all use. I'm told such users currently need human assistance in order to install openSUSE.
Yes. I am definitly one of those users. To install OpenSuSE I need to get someone in this office to read the screen. Alternatively, I can do an install over SSH however this is not a very clean option. In my view, a screen reader will cover most visual impairments as even if someone has very poor site and requires a magnifier they can listen to the synthesized speech to navigate the installer. The same cannot be done for a magnifier for the Blind...
Braille would primarily be for people who are completely blind and deaf.
The magnifier would be a nice bonus, but I don't think it's strictly required if we have the screen reader.
Unfortunately, festival is pretty huge. Maybe espeak is smaller, or maybe we can pare it down somehow.
-- Hans Petter
What about adding a speakup modified kernel into the installation image? Look at the Fedora modified distribution as an example: http://www.speakupmodified.org. Of course, some way of getting a screen reader in the graphical installer would be more preferable. I would just like to add that it is great to see this discussion on OpenSuSE lists. My thanks to Hanz and Bryan for their work on this. Please do not hesitate to contact me directly if you have any queeries. Darragh Ó Héiligh OpenSuSE Technical Support. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Darragh O'Heiligh -
Hans Petter Jansson -
Stanislav Visnovsky -
Stefan Behlert -
Stephan Kulow