Re: [opensuse-factory] Partitioning based on type of installation
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stanislav Visnovsky napsal(a): | Dňa Tuesday 03 June 2008 17:50:42 Jan Mate(jek ste napísal: |> Partitioner should also be more clever with handling "empty" partitions, |> ~ i.e. existing partitions which contain nothing (or "lost+found", |> "recycled", "system volume information", ".Trash" and friends), and |> primarily offer to wipe and format those. And if there is an existing |> partitioning scheme, it better not touch it, unless it has a good reason |> to. | | This assumes you can mount the partitions. But this is not always the case, as | even mounting might mean modifying a partition. Now imagine you cannot mount | a partition (because it's broken). In the worst case, you might hit a kernel | bug and end up with kernel panic. | | I think safety goes first in this scenario and the installer should not mess | with partitions until user asks him to do (IRIC if you select 'Update', the | installer mounts the disks looking for older releases) I understand the concern about mounting, but that is a problem solvable in implementation - doesn't e.g. parted somehow determine available space on partition without mounting it? And anyway. In the current state, the partitioner _by default_ proposes a reworked partitioning scheme, with little regard to the existing one. Which is safer for the installer, but actually more dangerous for the average Next-clicker. m. | | Stano | --------------------------------------------------------------------- | To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org | For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhGkMYACgkQjBrWA+AvBr84jwCfZDWJIgx7yHbGNXVI0Ss4wjdF tLsAn1AS8GtD7tAe8Uk3Auc2LhyLxXLT =C6d2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Jan Matějek wrote:
Stanislav Visnovsky napsal(a): | Dňa Tuesday 03 June 2008 17:50:42 Jan Mate(jek ste napísal: |> Partitioner should also be more clever with handling "empty" partitions, |> ~ i.e. existing partitions which contain nothing (or "lost+found", |> "recycled", "system volume information", ".Trash" and friends), and |> primarily offer to wipe and format those. And if there is an existing |> partitioning scheme, it better not touch it, unless it has a good reason |> to. | | This assumes you can mount the partitions. But this is not always the case, as | even mounting might mean modifying a partition. Now imagine you cannot mount | a partition (because it's broken). In the worst case, you might hit a kernel | bug and end up with kernel panic. | | I think safety goes first in this scenario and the installer should not mess | with partitions until user asks him to do (IRIC if you select 'Update', the | installer mounts the disks looking for older releases)
I understand the concern about mounting, but that is a problem solvable in implementation - doesn't e.g. parted somehow determine available space on partition without mounting it?
All Linux partitions are mounted because we need to exactly know which system is installed on those partitions. That's a piece of information that parted cannot provide.
And anyway. In the current state, the partitioner _by default_ proposes a reworked partitioning scheme, with little regard to the existing one. Which is safer for the installer, but actually more dangerous for the average Next-clicker.
Not at all. We are talking about update. Update doesn't propose any partition changes (which is safe). New installation does, but sometimes it proposes to reuse already created ones (which is the best way). L.
On Wednesday 04 June 2008 07:55:34 am Jan Matějek wrote:
And anyway. In the current state, the partitioner _by default_ proposes a reworked partitioning scheme, with little regard to the existing one. Which is safer for the installer, but actually more dangerous for the average Next-clicker.
I complained not once on partitioning proposals, and proposed to ask user, not just flip the coin and hope that it will be right. 1) Once it wanted do delete 10.3 installation and leave Alpha N in order to install Alpha N+1. This can wipe off someone's working installation with all user data, in order to install the one that user wants to play with. It is not necessary that installations are test releases. 2) Next time it wanted to use /home that was on separate virtual disk and partition it for installation, which is exactly what should not happen. I would understand if it would like to wipe off current installed system, it would show that it has minimal idea about content. Not mounting to prevent errors is fine, but throwing wild guesses that can wipe off user data, if user has a bad day and forget to check, is not good. BTW, asking ahead of time is not necessary in every case, for instance, if there is single disk, and partition is Windows type there is no doubt what user wants, but if it is already multiboot than it needs more attention. That can be considered as implicit request for research in order to prevent real damage. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
BTW, asking ahead of time is not necessary in every case, for instance, if there is single disk, and partition is Windows type there is no doubt what user wants, but if it is already multiboot than it needs more attention.
Not necessary. There are, at least, two possible scenarios what could user want in that case: 1.) Single-boot Linux (separate /home?, separate /boot?, ...) 2.) Multiboot Linux + Windows 2.1) There is already enough empty space for Linux - Create new partitions for Linux (separate ...?) 2.2) Not enough space - Shrink Windows Partition - Create new partitions for Linux (separate ...?) Your example actually shows your preferences, but frankly, installation isn't that simple. And that's also why I'd rather like to see a lot of different use-cases and proposals. Then we could merge them into a sequence of wizard dialogs where you could select from listed options according to your preferences. Bye Lukas
Lukas Ocilka schreef:
And that's also why I'd rather like to see a lot of different use-cases and proposals. Then we could merge them into a sequence of wizard dialogs where you could select from listed options according to your preferences.
Bye Lukas
Indeed! -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2008-06-05 at 13:52 +0200, Lukas Ocilka wrote:
Your example actually shows your preferences, but frankly, installation isn't that simple.
Could the installer ask the user what strategy he prefers, and then make the proposals? It would allow the proposal module to use different algorithms. Or once the proposal is made, a button for "think again", perhaps allowing the user to mark partitions as untouchable or preferred or free.
And that's also why I'd rather like to see a lot of different use-cases and proposals. Then we could merge them into a sequence of wizard dialogs where you could select from listed options according to your preferences.
Recently you (I mean, Novell) did a survey on hard disk configuration. Wouldn't it be more useful to give us a script to run locally (as user), that collects that info into a text file which we can then email to you? Then you would not have absurd results like a large percent saying they don't have a root partition. Maybe such a survey could be useful to you in order to design the install strategy :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFISDhitTMYHG2NR9URAmLjAJ98mLMyjvjbMDZEZdIptMy2ZY33vACfUQWz aCDD2VxTK20VbCimUWFeJio= =ty2o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 June 2008 06:52:06 am Lukas Ocilka wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
BTW, asking ahead of time is not necessary in every case, for instance, if there is single disk, and partition is Windows type there is no doubt what user wants, but if it is already multiboot than it needs more attention.
There is only 1 NTFS and maybe 1 smaller FAT32 partition with backup.
Not necessary. There are, at least, two possible scenarios what could user want in that case:
1.) Single-boot Linux (separate /home?, separate /boot?, ...)
Yes, it is possible, though that would be Linux user that bought computer and wants Linux only. The only case where windows users would do this is when windows is very old and very broken.
2.) Multiboot Linux + Windows
2.1) There is already enough empty space for Linux - Create new partitions for Linux (separate ...?)
Not common case. This can happen if user already shrunk windows using some windows based tool, erased partition with previous Linux or some other OS installation.
2.2) Not enough space - Shrink Windows Partition - Create new partitions for Linux (separate ...?)
The most common case.
Your example actually shows your preferences, but frankly, installation isn't that simple.
Not mine, but an average windows user that decided to try Linux. By now I was installing openSUSE always as dual boot, living Linux as default.
And that's also why I'd rather like to see a lot of different use-cases and proposals. Then we could merge them into a sequence of wizard dialogs where you could select from listed options according to your preferences.
Sure. It is better to ask, as current status is good just in case that: - computer has one hard disk - it is empty or has single windows partition Maybe it works in other cases, but not in examples from previous mail. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu 05 Jun 2008 23:52:06 NZST +1200, Lukas Ocilka wrote:
And that's also why I'd rather like to see a lot of different use-cases and proposals. Then we could merge them into a sequence of wizard dialogs where you could select from listed options according to your preferences.
In almost 10 years of using SUSE I have yet to be able to do a new installation (which I usually do to get rid of old crud) on an already partitioned hard disk, without losing most of my data to the bit bucket. I always have to go right down into expert partitioning to throw the useless yast proposals away, which always move partition boundaries thus hosing my disk. IIRC often the proposal didn't even manage to reuse the existing swap partition (which can be shared between multiple Linux installaions). There is no simple "new installation on which existing partition". Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 2008/06/14 09:28 (GMT+1200) Volker Kuhlmann apparently typed:
In almost 10 years of using SUSE I have yet to be able to do a new installation (which I usually do to get rid of old crud) on an already partitioned hard disk, without losing most of my data to the bit bucket. I always have to go right down into expert partitioning to throw the useless yast proposals away, which always move partition boundaries thus hosing my disk. IIRC often the proposal didn't even manage to reuse the existing swap partition (which can be shared between multiple Linux installaions). There is no simple "new installation on which existing partition".
After two or three version upgrades' worth of experience, there's really no good reason to not know in advance enough about partitioning to not plan and provide in advance of starting an installation what partitioning you should want, and go ahead and create it before booting into installation. That way you avoid dependence on someone else's (the SUSE installation developers) guessing what might be best for you. There are many good partitioning tools. Pick one, and use it first, then install. Here's a fairly simplistic example: 200M primary ext2 for base level Grub and a bunch of installation kernels and initrds. 1G logical swapper 12G ext3 logical for distro 1 12G ext3 logical for distro 2 12G ext3 logical for development distro or distro 3 212G ext3 logical for /home The first time the disk gets used, you have the installer set the primary to be /boot, make the first 12G /, and the big partition /home. You use that until the next update time, when you tell that installer to use the second 12G for /, big for /home, and don't set a separate /boot, and install Grub on its /. Instead of booting your new #2 directly, you use the first distro's Grub to chainload to the new #2 distro. Once you're happy with and/or acclimated to the newer distro, you simply stop using the first, until and unless such time as you mess up #2 beyond repair, whereupon you have the original as fallback. After using #2 a while, you feel adventurous, and try a development version, such as Factory. You have its installer use the #3 12G for /, big for /home, with its Grub on its /. Whether it works OK or not or you like it or not doesn't matter, because your original Grub menu gives you a choice between the original as fallback, #2 for operation as normal, and development only as the mood strikes. When the development version goes gold, you can either convert it to the new release, and switch to using it as your primary, or just leave it be, and install over the original. But, if and when installing over the original, you don't set a separate /boot. You just keep using the original Grub as your main menu to chainload to whichever you prefer for that startup. From this point on, you just leave Grub alone on that primary partition, and only touch that partition occassionally and manually if and when menu.lst needs a tweak. Naturally the sizes I suggested above are no more than suggestions. Your HD is probably larger or smaller than 250G, and your preference for space devoted to a / partition will vary according to need, the phase of the moon, the Zodiac, or whatever. I make / partitions as small as 4G. Others think 20G or more should be the minimum. Some have small disks, others monsters or multiples or RAID. The point is after accumulating a bit of experience you can use your own brain and come up with something better than an installer's guesstimate of your need, and leave that guesstimation to be applied on behalf of nOObs. There's really no need for partitioning surprises to waste a non-nOOb's time or data. With one exception, an early Lindows that offered no partitioning choices, I have never installed any distro without partitioning in advance. -- "Where were you when I laid the earth's foudation?" Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 14 June 2008 05:26:25 pm Felix Miata wrote:
The point is after accumulating a bit of experience you can use your own brain and come up with something better than an installer's guesstimate of your need, and leave that guesstimation to be applied on behalf of nOObs. There's really no need for partitioning surprises to waste a non-nOOb's time or data.
Problem is that guestimate can fail or even fail royally on the system that already has an existing Linux installation. What Lukas asked is to give use cases so that they (we) can create workflow that can be supported by partitioning wizard and will work safely for those that have one or two Linux installations, but still have no clear ideas about partitioning. Right now everyone, that already has some Linux on hard disk, better to know what he wants, check proposal and know how to accomplish partitioning using Expert mode, or it can be problem. With Ubuntu popularity it is easy to assume that: - openSUSE can be often a second Linux installation (try) - user is still noob for partitioning and will not check what proposal will bring. In that context any error in guestimate will produce problem which will drive users from openSUSE. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun 15 Jun 2008 10:26:25 NZST +1200, Felix Miata wrote:
After two or three version upgrades' worth of experience, there's really no good reason to not know in advance enough about partitioning to not plan and provide in advance of starting an installation what partitioning you should want,
Not sure I agree, some people might prefer to not have to know anything about partition tables. How large is the number of people who have partitioned their disk (how and by what means is irrelevant here) and want to keep it that way? I for one always have at least one large data partition which is distro and version independent and which I don't want monkeyed with (I do have a backup but not the time to restore 150+GB needlessly). I recomment the same partitioning scheme to everyone else. Or is it intentional that an installation onto an already partitioned disk requires drilling down 3+ levels into expert mode? I never thought of myself as an expert here. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 2008/06/15 23:14 (GMT+1200) Volker Kuhlmann apparently typed:
some people might prefer to not have to know anything about partition tables.
It's not normal for anyone to need to "know anything about partition tables" in order to be able to choose the size, quantity and mount points of partitions during installation.
How large is the number of people who have partitioned their disk (how and by what means is irrelevant here) and want to keep it that way?
I don't recall seeing a similar option anywhere in SUSE docs, but in Mandriva, there's an installation startup option "readonly" that when used, at partitioning phase of installation presents only existing partitions simply for choice of mount points, mount options, and whether to format only, with none of the other complications of any partitioner.
Or is it intentional that an installation onto an already partitioned disk requires drilling down 3+ levels into expert mode? I never thought of myself as an expert here.
I too think there's at least one step too many to get into position to merely specify which partitions to mount where, if to format, and mount options. It would be good to dispense with the need to know in advance any startup option in this regard, and instead at the first stage of the "partitioning" step offer a spartan screen with nothing but three choices and short descriptions of what they mean: Use existing Simple Advanced (or custom, but not expert) -- "Where were you when I laid the earth's foudation?" Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-06-15 at 08:47 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
Use existing Simple Advanced (or custom, but not expert)
I always use the expert mode, of whatever name. The proposal has never (since SuSE 5.3) been acceptable for me, I always have had to modify it. No big deal. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFIVRbatTMYHG2NR9URArq5AJiQGK7jswvgvMRQpuYkH4VWt4KsAJwKrJh4 snQkHvPh8M+MkN77IgfBqg== =CH5j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
partitioned hard disk, without losing most of my data to the bit bucket.
there is something called backup / restore :-) While I find the yast offered way rather clumsy, I now use squashfs, which has a compression rate just as high as tar gzip and the backup archive can be mounted as volume. See Bug 390201
I always have to go right down into expert partitioning to throw the useless yast proposals away, which always move partition boundaries thus hosing my disk. IIRC often the proposal didn't even manage to reuse the existing swap partition (which can be shared between multiple Linux installaions). There is no simple "new installation on which existing partition".
Fully agreed, as I am still using powerquest for backing up partitions ( two windows, one linux ) I need a simple setup that can be backed up / restored without to much hassle. Casual
participants (8)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Casual J. Programmer -
Felix Miata -
Jan Matějek -
Lukas Ocilka -
Oddball -
Rajko M. -
Volker Kuhlmann