-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-22 10:12, Martin Pluskal wrote:

On Thursday, October 22, 2015 04:31:02 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

Carlos over last several days, you have managed to create huge amount of traffic on this mailing list, with very low ratio of useful information to noise, and even when somehow useful, most of your posts are misplaced. Bug reports belong to bugzilla, opensuse-factory is serves as platform to discuss development not to report petty issues with document rendering. As you are no newbie to openSUSE community, I believe that you should know better.

I strongly disagree. opensuse-factory is no longer a developer mail list. It is a user mail list, for those users using Tumbleweed, and those testing Leap. I'm entitled to post here my doubts and requests for comments, when using those distributions. If you are sure that this is a bug, then I will forward to Bugzilla. Other people have told here to post in Bugzilla issues that were posted here, and then after a few posts it was demonstrated that it was no bug. Being this a user mail list, other users may have ideas of what to try with that document.

In regard to this issue you reported, it is something that is most likely upstream issue of libreoffice, so it should likely go to libreoffice bugzilla not to this mailing list.

That's an idea, thanks.

Also I would appreciate if you would refrain from using statements as "does an horrible job" - it is strongly disrespectful to developers/maintainers - why don't you try fixing yourself instead of using such language? You are getting results of someone elses work for free, and even if it might not be perfect, it is rude to make such comments.

I'm sorry if you think that. I never thought it wold be understood that way. To me, a program is an object, not a person, and it can do a good job, or a bad job. It is just a description of facts, not a judging on the people that made the tool. I'm not saying that a person did an horrible job. An tool did. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYoq9IACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UXfQCfX5ToIkVd2m/oAyQ2TYGetzV6 MgwAn1qY5RUQwLOlFWCGc2hrXR/70a9g =dSO/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. [22.10.2015 11:34]:

On 2015-10-22 11:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

To me, a program is an object, not a person, and it can do a good job, or a bad job. It is just a description of facts, not a judging on the people that made the tool. I'm not saying that a person did an horrible job. An tool did.

Just to be clear: my irritation is with the people that created such a document in a proprietary, non published, format. Not with the wonderful people that created LibreOffice, OpenOffice, StarOffice...

So why do you post here? Do you think that the people responsible for the publication of this document in an unusable format are reading here? Write to the webmaster or use the contact form on the website (if available). --

On 22 October 2015 at 10:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2015-10-22 11:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

To me, a program is an object, not a person, and it can do a good job, or a bad job. It is just a description of facts, not a judging on the people that made the tool. I'm not saying that a person did an horrible job. An tool did.

Just to be clear: my irritation is with the people that created such a document in a proprietary, non published, format. Not with the wonderful people that created LibreOffice, OpenOffice, StarOffice...

Carlos, I'm writing on behalf of the openSUSE Board, who have responsibility for resolving conflicts and to facilitate healthy communication within the Project Having monitored your behaviour on these Mailinglists and Forums we are increasingly concerned of the following trends in your behaviour: * Argumentative tone and manner, especially with active contributors * Repeated Negative disparagement of other contributions and contributors * High volume of posts, very often on topics which you clearly are not heavily involved or informed in (ie. Generating lots of 'noise' on these lists for little content) * Threats/Claims you intend to stop contributing in response to other contributions and the general direction of the project. We feel this behaviour is inconsistent with the Guiding principles of the project. It does not follow the concepts of collaboration, quality, and respect we want to see, and indeed we are concerned that the repeated and very high volume nature of your behaviour is actively discouraging and diminishing the enthusiasm and activity of our contributors We recognise you were recently banned from the openSUSE Forums for similar issues, and have noticed how your activity has dramatically increased on the mailinglist since that action was taken by our Forum team. Therefore, the Board is taking this exceptional action of giving you this final, formal, warning Please change your tone, manner, and dramatically reduce the 'noise' you generate on these lists, or we will be forced to ban you from all openSUSE lists and forums. We do not take such actions lightly, and would normally do our best to avoid intervening in this issue in this manner, but after seeing plenty of attempts from several contributors to address your behaviour directly to you, with no effect, we feel we have no alternative. Regards, The openSUSE Board -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op donderdag 22 oktober 2015 20:43:35 schreef Carlos E. R.:

On 2015-10-22 15:11, Andrew Wafaa wrote:

...

On 22 October 2015 at 10:34, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

If you don't like what other people say, you force them to shut down. Nice...

Stop this, Carlos. This is a direct personal attack and hence completely unacceptable. Nobody is telling you to shut up just like that, and you know this. It's exactly what the ban on the forums was about. And the previous ones. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht Official openSUSE Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

...

...

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

If you don't like what other people say, you force them to shut down. Nice...

...

Stop this, Carlos. This is a direct personal attack and hence completely unacceptable.

*I* did not read it as a personal attack. Lest we forget, English is not Carlos' primary language.

...

Nobody is telling you to shut up just like that, and you know this. It's exactly what the ban on the forums was about. And the previous ones.

That's exactly how I read the board message: as Carlos did. A shut up we don't want to hear you.

Same here.

Honestly, I believe the thread for the reply was ill-chosen. I'm pretty sure there's a context or thread in which Carlos comes out argumentative and disruptive, but IMHO, this thread isn't the context. And since I haven't read the other threads, in my view, it's the board the one bullying Carlos.

Again I agree, though I can understand disparate interpretations.

Sure, maybe the bug report was misplaced. But the board's reactions, in isolation, are completely disproportionate.

+1 I see this business of actively keeping it friendly and productive, while conceptually valid, coming off in practice as misplaced micromanagement, common fallout in a world in which authoritarian regulation continues to grow, and freedom continues to erode. IMO, laissez faire is very strongly preferred policy. If Carlos' _overall_ behavior has truly passed the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable that warrants banning, I missed it. I agree that some of Carlos' behavior has pushed the envelope of tolerability and warrants induced adjustment; but, I also empathize with where I suspect it's probably coming from. I'm less than thrilled with the way openSUSE has been evolving, and see a future that holds an ominous prospect of painful changes, including divorce. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 22 Oct 2015 14:11:37 Andrew Wafaa wrote:

On 22 October 2015 at 10:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

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On 2015-10-22 11:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

To me, a program is an object, not a person, and it can do a good job, or a bad job. It is just a description of facts, not a judging on the people that made the tool. I'm not saying that a person did an horrible job. An tool did.

Just to be clear: my irritation is with the people that created such a document in a proprietary, non published, format. Not with the wonderful people that created LibreOffice, OpenOffice, StarOffice...

Carlos,

I'm writing on behalf of the openSUSE Board, who have responsibility for resolving conflicts and to facilitate healthy communication within the Project

Having monitored your behaviour on these Mailinglists and Forums we are increasingly concerned of the following trends in your behaviour:

* Argumentative tone and manner, especially with active contributors * Repeated Negative disparagement of other contributions and contributors * High volume of posts, very often on topics which you clearly are not heavily involved or informed in (ie. Generating lots of 'noise' on these lists for little content) * Threats/Claims you intend to stop contributing in response to other contributions and the general direction of the project.

We feel this behaviour is inconsistent with the Guiding principles of the project. It does not follow the concepts of collaboration, quality, and respect we want to see, and indeed we are concerned that the repeated and very high volume nature of your behaviour is actively discouraging and diminishing the enthusiasm and activity of our contributors

We recognise you were recently banned from the openSUSE Forums for similar issues, and have noticed how your activity has dramatically increased on the mailinglist since that action was taken by our Forum team.

Therefore, the Board is taking this exceptional action of giving you this final, formal, warning

Please change your tone, manner, and dramatically reduce the 'noise' you generate on these lists, or we will be forced to ban you from all openSUSE lists and forums.

We do not take such actions lightly, and would normally do our best to avoid intervening in this issue in this manner, but after seeing plenty of attempts from several contributors to address your behaviour directly to you, with no effect, we feel we have no alternative.

Regards,

The openSUSE Board

I would have thought that an email like this should have not been posted to the list and only to the person to whom its targeted. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 23 October 2015 at 10:20, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

On Oct 23 08:58 ianseeks wrote (excerpt):

...

On Thursday 22 Oct 2015 14:11:37 Andrew Wafaa wrote:

...

Carlos,

I'm writing on behalf of the openSUSE Board,

...

...

I would have thought that an email like this should have not been posted to the list and only to the person to whom its targeted.

I also had ambiguous feelings when reading those mail that has private content from my personal point of view but also from my personal point of view it seems to be meant as some kind of warning to all others?

Several members of the community including some of my fellow Board members, have tried to reason with Carlos directly off the lists but unfortunately to no avail. Which is why the Board became involved. We feel that Carlos has been given enough warnings and plenty of chances to listen and act appropriately to the concerns of those in our community. As he has clearly shown, he has chosen not to heed the requests which is why we (the Board) have taken the decision to be public in this final request. We understand and appreciate that Carlos does no need to do what we say, after all we're not his parents. However we are tasked by our community to ensure that openSUSE is a productive, enjoyable and fun community to be a part off. As such, his behaviour is not compatible with the openSUSE community. Being disrespectful and rude to others is not on.

I even fear I should not have written this reply but better kept silent to avoid possible further issues?

Why would you be fearful? As I had explained in the email, we have given Carlos plenty of chances and he chose to ignore us. That is indeed his prerogative, the consequences are his own making. We will not ignore the requests from many of our community to put an end to his actions. Regards, Andy

Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg)

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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On 23 October 2015 at 14:13, ianseeks wrote:

...

I also had ambiguous feelings when reading those mail that has private content from my personal point of view but also from my personal point of view it seems to be meant as some kind of warning to all others?

That could possibly be the reason. I wonder if there is something in the Code of Conduct relating to this kind of situation and if not, should there be?

It wasn't intended as a warning to others. There's two factors which crossed the Boards collective mind when deciding how to make this post One repeated bit of feedback the Board gets is that we do too much in private, and therefore no one knows the work the Board is doing. Therefore, as a rule of thumb we are trying our best to do everything 'public by default'. That said, obviously, an issue like this is precisely the kind that we would consider to handle privately, but that leads to the second point - during one of the issues which led to this situation (the situation with Translations) I had a discussion with Carlos in private, trying to persuade him to take a more productive and proactive role in resolving the issues he's concerned about there. During the course of a subsequent public discussion, details of that private discussion were leaked out a bit at a time, often with pretty curious deviations in interpretation from how the other parties remembered it. In the end, a much broader disclosure of the content of the discussion was required to clear up what really went on. And so, we (the Board) didn't want a repetition of that situation here. Everyone can see what we're saying, how we're saying it, and as this email proves, we're prepared to discuss and clarify as required. I don't think this is a bad way for the Board to conduct itself - it's our job to deal with issues like these with could potentially 'slip between the cracks' of formal rules. Clear cut formal rulebreaking is so much easier to deal with.. If anyone is concerned, let me put this very clearly The Board will never deal with an issue in this manner without ensuring that the parties involved have had several warnings and opportunities to change the situation in both public and private. Each action of this type is decided by the Board is considered on a case-by-case basis and our actions reflect what we feel is in the best interest of the Community at that time. It would be unfair to extrapolate or assume that the course of action that was chosen in this case would be readily applied to even similar situations. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 23 Oct 2015 14:41:56 Richard Brown wrote:

On 23 October 2015 at 14:13, ianseeks wrote:

...

...

I also had ambiguous feelings when reading those mail that has private content from my personal point of view but also from my personal point of view it seems to be meant as some kind of warning to all others?

That could possibly be the reason. I wonder if there is something in the Code of Conduct relating to this kind of situation and if not, should there be? It wasn't intended as a warning to others.

There's two factors which crossed the Boards collective mind when deciding how to make this post

One repeated bit of feedback the Board gets is that we do too much in private, and therefore no one knows the work the Board is doing. Therefore, as a rule of thumb we are trying our best to do everything 'public by default'.

That said, obviously, an issue like this is precisely the kind that we would consider to handle privately, but that leads to the second point - during one of the issues which led to this situation (the situation with Translations) I had a discussion with Carlos in private, trying to persuade him to take a more productive and proactive role in resolving the issues he's concerned about there.

During the course of a subsequent public discussion, details of that private discussion were leaked out a bit at a time, often with pretty curious deviations in interpretation from how the other parties remembered it. In the end, a much broader disclosure of the content of the discussion was required to clear up what really went on.

And so, we (the Board) didn't want a repetition of that situation here. Everyone can see what we're saying, how we're saying it, and as this email proves, we're prepared to discuss and clarify as required.

I don't think this is a bad way for the Board to conduct itself - it's our job to deal with issues like these with could potentially 'slip between the cracks' of formal rules. Clear cut formal rulebreaking is so much easier to deal with..

If anyone is concerned, let me put this very clearly

The Board will never deal with an issue in this manner without ensuring that the parties involved have had several warnings and opportunities to change the situation in both public and private. Each action of this type is decided by the Board is considered on a case-by-case basis and our actions reflect what we feel is in the best interest of the Community at that time. It would be unfair to extrapolate or assume that the course of action that was chosen in this case would be readily applied to even similar situations.

I think the issue is that if the board doesn't follow the code of conduct in its dealings with others, its not a good example to others. They lose the moral high ground if they vent their frustration in public in the same way a contributor may vent his/her frustration at times. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 23 October 2015 at 08:58, ianseeks wrote:

I would have thought that an email like this should have not been posted to the list and only to the person to whom its targeted. --

I agree, this is words of wisdom. ------------ Terje J. H -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 23 October 2015 at 17:32, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:26 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Also I would appreciate if you would refrain from using statements as "does an horrible job" - it is strongly disrespectful to developers/maintainers - why don't you try fixing yourself instead of using such language? You are getting results of someone elses work for free, and even if it might not be perfect, it is rude to make such comments.

I'm sorry if you think that. I never thought it wold be understood that way.

To me, a program is an object, not a person, and it can do a good job, or a bad job. It is just a description of facts, not a judging on the people that made the tool. I'm not saying that a person did an horrible job. An tool did.

And this is also true.

The OP was met with aggression because he mentioned libreoffice making "a horrible job".

As much as some people seem to believe the opposite, progams are not people. And even people should be able to take criticism. Even constructive criticism is criticism in any case, and when a program is said to do something bad, that's not a personal attack, that's just an objective assessment of code performance and/or correctness, and anyone believing that it is a personal offense is simply being unprofessional. I've worked with people like that, and it's unbearable, not a pleasant experience, when you can't point out flaws without fearing the author will make a scene out of a simple review.

From my POV, someone got offended because of that simple review, because it was placed in what he considered the wrong mailing list, an attitude that I personally find unprofessional from the ofendee, not the offender, and then the offender gets a threat from the board.

That's what I get when I read the thread in isolation. This is an objective assessment, to give the board an opportunity to provide the missing context, for I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that will take this thread's contents in isolation.

The board was not reacting to a single thread in isolation, but an ongoing trend If you really want to read a lot, recent example threads are below , but this is not a comprehensive list - I just really don't want to waste too much time trawling through the past, while I still want to give you an insight into the Boards decision making process. 'Noise': http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00028.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00045.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00047.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00049.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00062.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00091.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00159.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00454.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00670.html There's lots of replies in many threads which could be considered very content-light with lots of block quotes 'Exactly', 'Same here', 'I agree' Argumentative/Disparagement of other Contributors/Threats of non-contribution@ http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-10/msg00052.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00011.html I'm afraid I don't have the forum posts to hand which also fit this trend, including arguments with their Forum administrators - I understand the Forum team may have tidied up a lot of those posts. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 23 October 2015 at 18:46, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

'Noise': http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00028.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html

If you're going to consider duplicate bug reports as noise worthy of reprimand, that will only discourage bug reporting.

It's your prerogative as a board I guess, but still. Not something I consider wise.

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Argumentative/Disparagement of other Contributors/Threats of non-contribution@ http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-10/msg00052.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00011.html

On those two, I see him upset by something that would upset me too. I can certainly relate to that.

Anyway, I'm not arguing for or against the decision. I don't have the information. But the information I have... is the one above, which doesn't justify the decision in my view. Let other readers make their own judgement.

Claudio, This isn't a nice simple situation as "one specific example of concrete rule breakage" If that was the case, we have rules and moderators who do a wonderful job on dealing with those issues quickly and effectively The Boards job is to worry about the community as a whole, and deal with the bigger picture.. the examples I provided are evidence of a trend, a pattern of behaviour which, while each individual example might be okay, on aggregate poses a disruptive influence on the Project. When so many issues, even if they are individually small, are being generated and effect a number of people such as the many readers of a list of entire groups of contributors, the Board have to be concerned about it and need to take action, which we have. While I'd hope you and everyone else agrees with it, whether you do or not is somewhat immaterial - we're the communities elected body for handling such stuff, we're handling it to the best of our ability, knowledge and experience. Feedback is welcome, but our decisions are our decisions :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:12:03 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:

I'm afraid I don't have the forum posts to hand which also fit this trend, including arguments with their Forum administrators - I understand the Forum team may have tidied up a lot of those posts.

That is correct, Richard. It is standard practice in the forums to deal with threads where fighting occurs (whether it's between members or between members and forum staff). Our audience in the forums tends to run more towards end-users, so we tend to enforce a community standard that's less like the rough-and- tumble of development mailing lists and more like a user-to-user support forum. Being friendly to new users who don't come from a technology background is a primary goal there - and the directness that some (or even many) technical people use in their written communications comes across as being mean or overly blunt. As such, specific forum examples are tricky to locate, because they would need to walk that line between being problematic enough to mention, but not problematic enough to have been deleted. I personally end up dealing with a fair number of the forum issues where Carlos is one of the participants, and often, the result of my dealing with those issues is direct interaction with Carlos. Richard's observation of Carlos' frequent "content-free" responses is something the forums staff are very familiar with. I can't even begin to list the number of times I've seen Carlos reply to threads with responses that had all the appearances of being simply intended to drive a post counter up. Replies that add substantially no new information to an ongoing discussion, duplicate points already made, and so on - sometimes hours after the point's already been made. Another frequent distraction that he brings to help threads is nit- picking rare edge cases of general statements made by participants in the thread. Sometimes, it is useful to bring those up, but not nearly as frequently as happens. We've had forum members often express their frustration (by reporting posts) with Carlos' derailing of threads with unimportant trivia. To be fair, the number of times that we've had to deal with Carlos' behavior in the forums has put some of the staff on something of a hair trigger with anything he says. As a forum administrator, I see it as part of my job to make sure those discussions stay grounded and ask the question "if this was anyone else, would we be having this discussion?" - and I take that responsibility very seriously. Sometimes the answer is "no, we wouldn't". Sometimes the answer is "yes, we would". Sometimes the answer is "it depends on if we'd had problems like this with the user before". We take banning users very seriously, and other than spammers (who earn an instant permanent ban), we've only had occasion to apply a permanent ban on two occasions that I can think of - and then, only after very long and careful deliberation that it's the right course of action, along with a proviso that if the users in question agree to follow the rules (knowing that we'll be watching closely), they can come back; so even then, "permanent" doesn't have to be. Temporary bans are more frequent (maybe one every 2-3 months) - usually for a period of two weeks as a "cooling off" period. Sometimes longer if it's a repeat offense, or shorter if the user is really new and is just not responding to the usual guidance we provide for them to be a productive contributor. We don't always handle it perfectly (we are human, after all), but we do our best to try to make the forums a welcoming place for everyone who is serious about participating. The challenge for any moderation team is finding the right balance when a user becomes problematic, and usually, that kind of situation leads to the potential for people on the sidelines feeling the need to engage in "rules lawyering" and second-guessing those who have stepped up to manage the community and ensure the standards of the community are being followed. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-24 11:29, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

Op vrijdag 23 oktober 2015 18:18:59 schreef Jim Henderson:

As a global moderator of the openSUSE forums: Jim's description here is a very accurate one. This is not an incident that got out of hand, not a matter of bullying by Board or whatever entity within the community, not just a matter of language differences, it's the result of an ongoing situation that needed dealing with. The step we took by invoking a temporary ban was not taken lightly, in general bans are only invoked if the entire Forums Team sees no other options.

I also would like to apologize for my "Stop this, Carlos..." public post on this list. Simply because such posts don't belong here IMHO.

Thanks. Let me state first that what is said here about what I may have done in the forums is news to me. The forum banning was done in secret, without warning to me, and without due process. I had no chance at all to say anything. Then, I'm not aware of having molested anyone. My personal view of the situation was that I had some opinions, strong opinions, perhaps, and some forum staff thought I was very wrong, got tired of discussing with me, and shut me up by banning me. Censorship, IMHO, instead of having lively discussions. For instance, someone remonstrated me for recommending a user that could not run graphics mode to login as root in text mode, then issuing startx, for diagnosis only. ;-) A minute later, I was banned. :-o :-? However, I have silently accepted the ruling and said nothing about it anywhere. The forum have their rules, so be it. And I don't understand why what I may have done in the forums should be used to attack me here in the mail lists. I was thus very surprised when Richard started mentioning my issues with the forums, in the middle of a technical discussion. My understanding, maybe wrong, I hope to be wrong, is that Richard hates me because I contrariate him in technical issues and he wants me to shut up, using personal arguments, wanting me to be banned from any openSUSE discussion avenue. He doesn't want in openSUSE people that do not think like him. I'm sorry, but he doesn't have proper "bedside manners" (is that the proper expression in English?) in handling people and calming them. I think he should step down. Sorry for saying this here. I never intended to vent my feelings, but the board has started the war against me, in public. I'm willing to try moderate my language, or correct my manners if people explain politely and kindly what I do wrong. I'm Spanish, and we are hot blooded, temperamental. It doesn't mean that we hate our opponents. Here, we can say lovingly to some one that he is a son of a whore, and it is not an insult, but an endearment. Depends. But if we are really insulted or bullied about, we don't react nicely. I'm not having fun. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYrozQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XIlACghRfQR1JIvAjumydEg/k+H2GM 92gAn1jagifeLMFKc2ZJTBI9fSEhRXUr =Z/IN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-24 21:27, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:26:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

It got so bad that I had to take time to create something to *specifically* enforce the ban, because in general, NNTP users being banned on the web interface is ineffective.

I did not enjoy having to create software to *specifically* deal with you in the forums.

Waste of time. As soon as I learned I was banned, which was not immediate, I obeyed and stopped posting. I didn't even try to change my address and answer those that replied to my posts after I got banned, which is a very impolite thing to do (talking of one in one's back). Look here, I obey orders. It is in my temperament.

...

And I don't understand why what I may have done in the forums should be used to attack me here in the mail lists.

The forums are part of the community, and the problem here is a problem that persists across the community. Your volume of posts on the MLs went up (as Richard pointed out) when the ban was instituted in the forums.

Coincidental. It just happens that it is test period for Leap. Of course, not being able to post in the forum, leaves me no other resource than here. Posts that I would have made there went here instead. I don't see it as my fault, rather your's :-P :-) But my total number of posts has decreased, maybe by a factor of ten.

Like I said, I *don't* hate you. I seriously *defend* you in the back room as we talk through the issues that you pose in the forums, and I make everyone think about whether or not the actions we take are because the problem is with someone who's a constant source of a low grade migraine, or if we're taking the actions because of the behavior.

Appreciated.

You have *constantly* been warned in public in the forums. More times than any other member we have had to deal with. The fact that you think that you haven't been warned shows how much in denial you are about the situation.

Not so. If somebody tells me such a thing, unless he says that in his official role as moderator, explicitly, I take it as a plain user saying something to me. He is no different than others, no privileges. Thus, I keep discussing. I was never aware of being such a nuisance. Just that some of the staff thought of me as a nuisance, and I never understood why. DenverD warned me... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYr4dUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U+4gCfUpHK9P2eiMaMTfWSmOS9u9eH BOYAoIyYF4r3ipFqr4kQMz9BI9qha0Zz =zaxP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:02:05 +0200, Michael Melcher wrote:

Guys, can you take this conversation to private please?

It's quite annoying to have my phone alarm me every minute of an incoming email just to see this argument is still going on.

Apologies, Michael. I'm done. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2015-10-24 22:39, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:53:59 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Look here, I obey orders. It is in my temperament.

The only reason we had to take action was specifically because you *weren't* taking direction, Carlos. And because you weren't taking direction on other things, we needed to create something to ensure that it would. Indeed, you did post a few messages after the notification was sent via PM (which was sent to your registered e-mail address). To your credit, you did observe the ban after we deleted about 4 or 5 posts you made after it was instituted.

I assure you, that I found that email AFTER I tried to log into the forum, and after I had sent two or three posts. I stopped posting the instant I knew about the ban.

I also very specifically - on one of the mailing lists, in fact - told you to stop trying to moderate other users' posts in-thread.

That was another user. There is only one person which is entitled to tell anyone to stop in the mail lists, and if he speaks, I obey. Not to others.

You've *repeatedly* been told *by staff* not to reply to spammy posts (for example, posts that are replies to messages years old that provide a Windows solution and a link - *always* *always* *ALWAYS* are spam posts - yet you still continue to reply to them pointing out that the software being referenced is Windows software), yet we still end up cleaning up replies you make to them. Again, not a frequent occurrence, but it adds up with all the other stuff that we've had to deal with over the years.

That's stupid, IMO. You consider that a violation? Good grief, man! If I thought it was spam, I would not answer. I answered because I did not identify those as spam. And again, I don't obey orders from staff unless they mention that they act in their role as moderator. Otherwise, they are plain users talking.

As I said before, I can't count the number of times you've replied to threads without adding anything substantially new to them, instead duplicating information already provided, or adding a comment to an ongoing thread where you've not been participating that just says "I have no idea" or something like that. If you don't know, there's no reason to say anything, especially if the question wasn't directed at you in the first place.

Well, that's your opinion.

Or the number of times where you have gotten into a debate over trivial edge-cases that don't apply to a user's situation.

And to you that's a violation. Good grief.

As I said, your posts get reported more than any other users' for adding nothing to the discussion. We've tried being nice in our direction to you about how to contribute in an effective way, and nothing has changed.

The guidance/advice that I would give you is to carefully consider before posting whether or not you're adding anything new to the conversation - or anything substantial. You are a *very* prolific writer, and the best way to be noticed is not to participate in every thread or discussion you can, but to be selective and participate where you can add value. You don't want to be seen as the "me too!" person in the majority of your participation. Focus on quality posts and information, rather than quantity. That will help you *a lot*.

I am very selective. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-25 22:41, Jim Henderson wrote:

As I said, Carlos, I'm done discussing this on the list. You know where to find me if you want to discuss this further.

Agreed. I do not want to talk about this further. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYtTp0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1y+IwD/RiIEy8a7t58P+MPMQLcE6xtG xs2fS9W4HuRUS3y/zU8A/AqpdKwb/TCL98FsldjrCVtrfHv61HRuzudsFvDu4TOX =pcVQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-24 21:27, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:26:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I'm willing to try moderate my language, or correct my manners if people explain politely and kindly what I do wrong. I'm Spanish, and we are hot blooded, temperamental.

I have to say, I don't accept this reasoning. I have known many Spanish people, and just like people everywhere, it's an individual choice and individual personality. Blaming your cultural background is no way to deal with a problem when people repeatedly tell you there's a problem with your behavior.

LOL. Samples after a quick search ("hijodeputa en forums"): http://bbs.conquista.91.com/showthread.php?t=20871 http://alasbarricadas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12542 http://www.muylinux.com/2013/07/21/ubuntu-forums-hackeado https://es-es.facebook.com/JodeteHijoDePuta.JcFerr https://vimeo.com/54121454 - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYr6ZcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U6eQCffLbVBYVYCFb7V5+r2jqJmzHm lmIAnRqDUofRHK2yBnbV7xLGuhr+P53W =VKZb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-24 17:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00011.html

...

That

was not me, or not only me. One contributor found a very bad issue, and asked (that's the first post of the thread). I was as surprised as the rest. Several contributors expressed views similar to mine. I simply was one of the first. Perhaps I talk more than others. Others sent me private posts, agreeing.

See, for instance, an explanation of that issue by another contributor: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-10/msg00057.html He says the same as me, in better words. Yet I'm the bad guy! :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYrpWoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UV5gCfeWD1fz/YScL5icuARPFDYrx5 Pg0AniuCxzacNWY5lJe7a+maX2mMjKHo =Jqqj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-24 18:51, ianseeks wrote:

On Saturday 24 Oct 2015 17:36:13 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

He says the same as me, in better words. Yet I'm the bad guy! :-(

i think a lot of us do not understand what the issue is so you have company. i only follow a couple of lists and i've not seen anything to be worried about, just a few frustrations here and there that everyone on this planet is guilty of in some way. And i must say your English is very good, i would never have guessed it was not your native tongue.

Well, thank you :-) But actually, that may be part of the problem: some, even me, think that I don't have any problem communicating in English, when I do. I may not interpret something correctly, without even guessing it happened. Or I may say something that I think is well written and clear, and it is not. And some seem to take offence when none was intended. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYr0i8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VTGQCdEY5a57DTt2/Ohhs9lrTRhe/3 my4Anj5GyLs/pBHPIPY5WZ1sRlnn2D5j =pTPC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown composed on 2015-10-24 19:37 (UTC+0200):

I don't mind if you don't change WHAT you post, or HOW you post, or HOW MUCH you post, but at least one of those things needs to change.

As written, I disagree, because of inclusion of the word "needs". If anything he does _needs_ changing, it's his pattern of liberal one-liners following full quotes, and that implementation appears may have already begun. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dne 24.10.2015 v 20:59 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

On 2015-10-24 19:37, Richard Brown wrote:

...

At this point I was hoping to say "you can even find people who post as much as you to this list" but at 94 emails out of 880 this month you are the undisputed source of more posts on this list than anyone else, by a significant margin

And you are possibly the one that writes longer texts (which I find problematic to read), but I haven't complained. I seldom object to anybody posting what they wish or how they wish. I however see significant difference between you messages and those sent by richard, and that is meaningful content. Also, let me mention that while board has described what kind of behavior is seen as problematic, and what you should change/improve, you reply with ridiculous accusations of richad or board hating you.

That I post many posts, yes. It means that I'm trying, testing, Leap, and I'm actively requesting for comments on it. This is the proper list for those posts. No; to quote description of this ml "Discussions about the development of the next openSUSE version.". Your ill placed bugreports, mostly about tiny problems do not belong here. While others are sometimes doing this as well (and honestly I am not excited about it), in your case there is also issue of excess.

Furthermore, you managed (again) to reply only to part of comments you received, so lets bring once again other part: lots of your posts are not related to any issues but are just derailing discussion, adding unnecessary information ("me too" and similar). It is nice that you are trying, but you don't need to tell about it 800+ subscribers of this ml all the time.

Posts such as mine are typical in the main opensuse mail list, by many people. People having an active part in development must get used to people posting in the factory mail list instead, at least during development phase, creating a lot of traffic and chit-chat.

Who are you to tell others what they must do or get used to? While board was elected by members of community who gave you such mandate? Have you considered that community members are volunteers and might just decide to ignore this ml instead or even stop contributing? If anything will happen, active contributors will ignore this ml instead, as is already happening with opensuse ml.

After Leap is released, I will probably shift to that mail list instead, as in other years.

This ml became sort of cesspool recently, due to absolute lack of moderation.

...

You clearly have problems with the direction of the project, you object strongly to other contributions being carried out by other contributors, you've made it clear that while you're willing to talk at great length about the issues you perceive there are limits to what you are willing to learn or do to change it.

The same thing as others have said. I'm no different.

...

Please take this opportunity to make it unnecessary, I don't know about you, but I'm getting tired of these long discussions, and I'm pretty sure everyone is getting fed up of reading them.

I'm really tired of this bickshedding. It is impacting my health, and I did not cause it :-(

I am not sure if this is funny, ironic or just sad, but you apparently fail to realize that you are bikeshedding all the time, and even after being confronted about such behavior you accuse other of same instead. Furthermore I would like to state my full support to whatever action will be done by openSUSE board. Martin Pluskal

On 2015-10-24 21:45, Martin Pluskal wrote:

Dne 24.10.2015 v 20:59 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

I however see significant difference between you messages and those sent by richard, and that is meaningful content.

And I see his as aggressive and not constructive.

Also, let me mention that while board has described what kind of behavior is seen as problematic, and what you should change/improve, you reply with ridiculous accusations of richad or board hating you.

Others agreed with me in private.

...

That I post many posts, yes. It means that I'm trying, testing, Leap, and I'm actively requesting for comments on it. This is the proper list for those posts. No; to quote description of this ml "Discussions about the development of the next openSUSE version.". Your ill placed bugreports, mostly about tiny problems do not belong here. While others are sometimes doing this as well (and honestly I am not excited about it), in your case there is also issue of excess.

Well, that's your opinion, not the consensus. Most posters on the main opensuse list posting about Leap are told to go here.

Furthermore, you managed (again) to reply only to part of comments you received,

I just trim quotes of paragraphs I'm not going to answer for whatever reason. That's correct netiquette.

so lets bring once again other part: lots of your posts are not related to any issues but are just derailing discussion, adding unnecessary information ("me too" and similar).

I'm sorry that you think that way.

...

Posts such as mine are typical in the main opensuse mail list, by many people. People having an active part in development must get used to people posting in the factory mail list instead, at least during development phase, creating a lot of traffic and chit-chat. Who are you to tell others what they must do or get used to? While board was elected by members of community who gave you such mandate? Have you considered that community members are volunteers and might just decide to ignore this ml instead or even stop contributing?

Mandate? It is just fact. I'm not trying to be list police. It has being so on all release cycles, this is no different.

...

...

Please take this opportunity to make it unnecessary, I don't know about you, but I'm getting tired of these long discussions, and I'm pretty sure everyone is getting fed up of reading them.

I'm really tired of this bickshedding. It is impacting my health, and I did not cause it :-( I am not sure if this is funny, ironic or just sad, but you apparently fail to realize that you are bikeshedding all the time, and even after being confronted about such behavior you accuse other of same instead.

It is a fact. I did not cause it.

Furthermore I would like to state my full support to whatever action will be done by openSUSE board.

Others don't. But not many will say it in public. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Martin Pluskal composed on 2015-10-24 21:45 (UTC+0200): ...

...

That I post many posts, yes. It means that I'm trying, testing, Leap, and I'm actively requesting for comments on it. This is the proper list for those posts.

No; to quote description of this ml "Discussions about the development of the next openSUSE version."...

That description moved out of sync with reality with the advent of Tumbleweed. It de facto serves two purposes now. If moderators don't want discussion of TW usage here, it needs to be made clear exactly where it does belong, and posts on whatever list _is_ appropriate that suggest otherwise need appropriate attention. TW usage posters on the opensuse en list are routinely pointed here as the (more) appropriate forum. ...

This ml became sort of cesspool recently, due to absolute lack of moderation.

Or was it because its purpose morphed to include a large volume of non-developers? To maintain the historical SNR, either a new list directed to TW users should have been created, or competent steps should have been instituted to ensure widespread knowledge that this was not where TW usage posts belong. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:40 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

No; to quote description of this ml "Discussions about the development of the next openSUSE version."...

That description moved out of sync with reality with the advent of Tumbleweed. It de facto serves two purposes now. If moderators don't want discussion of TW usage here, it needs to be made clear exactly where it does belong, and posts on whatever list _is_ appropriate that suggest otherwise need appropriate attention. TW usage posters on the opensuse en list are routinely pointed here as the (more) appropriate forum.

...

...

This ml became sort of cesspool recently, due to absolute lack of moderation.

Or was it because its purpose morphed to include a large volume of non-developers? To maintain the historical SNR, either a new list directed to TW users should have been created, or competent steps should have been instituted to ensure widespread knowledge that this was not where TW usage posts belong.

Well that, and those "new tumbleweed snapshot" emails, the "review of the week", etc..

...this became TW's users ML a while ago, de facto if not in name.

Sorry, I just noticed it came off as complainy. I'm not complaining, I can use filters. But if it bothers others, a separate list is indeed the solution. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-22 20:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2015-10-22 11:45, Stefan Kunze wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2015, 04:31:02 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

definitely upstream Libreoffice is the correct adress here.

...

As far as I know they collect problematic documents for automated testing .

Thank you! I will try that.

See? This is helpful, good results will come out from this thread. :-)

Someone has a link for this submission?

(I had a look at the site, and could not locate where to submit documents. A bugzilla, perhaps?) Another person told me in private that LO 3.5.4 can convert that document nicely. So it seems to be a regression somewhere. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYrmNwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W3MwCgkfTo1yUdpvkc/UC8DAMGMEqc uWYAnRcuFN1h9FTdhTWRSln4NyOr3PmN =H3QP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org