I have 4 openSUSE 10.2 installations so far, installed WITHOUT "Enterprise Software manager tools" (or somthing like it, i do not remember precisely, the ZMD et al). I turned off them during install, at pattern selection. My workstations are using pure YAST.

There were no problems at all about updates. Yes, update procedure is a little bit slower than on older releaes (i was on all from 10.1 to 8.0 inclusive) but it works flawlessly.

Indeed, I've already seen problems with zen-updater and zmd reported by almost all I've recommended 10.2 to, and none after removing zmd. I'm so glad it was left in by default due to being "better tested". _ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I do not have the impression that the reported problems relate to YOU and YaST PM.

Yeah. First link problem is clearly the (almost always) broken http redirector. If he had added a mirror directly it would probably give no errors at all. My 10.2 box is working good, without any zmd stuff installed (as 10.1 was too, actually). That said, Andreas Hanke, about the zmd bashing "volume": I expect it to be just as much as the size of the problem it caused in 10.1, which we both know what is the size of it, right? Something between "destroyed the known universe" and "reverse big bang, 2nd revision". Just to remind we are talking about a program that in 10.1 would corrupt its data all by itself, without user intervention. You went to sleep, let computer on, wake up and there it goes, repo data corrupted on zmd. Really great. regards Marcio --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Can we maybe try to discuss this issue a tiny little bit more seriously - or not at all?

Sarcasm is less valid?

Try to get a clue about the zmd architecture: For a regular user it's nearly impossible to tell whether it's zmd or zypp which "currupts its data all by itself" because both zmd AND zypp are accessing zmd.db. The

Still is? I recall deleting all /var/lib/zmd/* before deleting zmd and stuff (wonder if it was re-created), and I dont have it now in 10.2. It also doesnt match with the draw in http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Package-management-in-code10.png provided by Nat Budin, from Novell. If you think its a problem with the syncing databases mechanism I still cant "assume responsability", because in a sane zmd free system there wouldnt be a need of sync'ing, and therefore the problem wouldnt exist.

regular user of course only knows about zmd and not about the zypp backend and concludes "I hate zmd, now I'll go on bashing until you remove it for me".

Thats not even the point. The point, as I stated before is: there is completely not a single need in planet earth for having zen (and worse: installed by default) in openSUSE. Do you know somebody using a zenserver? You do? Great, so how many people are using it with a zen server? More than 90% of 10.2 users? More than 0.01%?

If the database becomes currupted, how do you know why this happened?

I will explain to you why its my usual suspect. It never happened in a suse release before that I left my computer turned on, and then from nowhere a y2base process starts parsing the repo-data, adn then sources are no longer there, corrupted. It never happened before. In fact, it didnt have in 10.1 without zmd. But zmd, the daemon, running in background all the time, hmm well, yeah, seems it could be zmd.exe

Maybe it happened because parse-metadata segfaulted...

Iirc, parse-metada comes from libzypp-zmd-backend, which means its a zmd problem. Kinda proves my point. By the way the helpers in C++, a part in ycp, the other in C#/mono whatever is the biggest proof that this wasnt meant to be happening. Or you do a program in a script language, in C, in C++ and in C#? You think thats normal? Thats not normal, thats the result of trying to glue the most different things in one of the world's ugliest hacks I have ever seen. Call me a flamer. And I'll quote you: "unless you deliberately don't look at it."

And most of the slowness _clearly_ comes from the zypp backend. That's why you can find it in YaST, too, unless you deliberately don't look at it.

I think its quite better in 10.2, I find it pretty nice to use. Main repo is a little slower, but the smaller ones are pretty quick to add/refresh. In fact, after its all installed, there is little need to change the pkg selection (for me), so firing yast is kinda restricted to apply you patches for me

This sarcasm is not serious

It a sarcasm full of seriousness

non-zmd based tools. It would be much more productive if we could agree on working together improving the quality of the overall situation instead of bashing one aspect of it.

I completely agree.

The non-zmd tools still have serious problems in many areas:

Apparently they have. What you seem to overestimate is the impact they have. In a similar way you underestimate the problem of having a useless tool running in suse releases from now on. Do you think its okay to have in this distro in every installation a squid proxy activated by default? I dont think so. And you will agree with me. Why? Because most people dont need a squid proxy running by default in every computer. This is not sarcasm, its just a simple fact.

- Why doesn't zypper ask for the CD if I request installing packages from it, - Why does opensuse-updater tell me since several hours that it's checking for updates without actually checking anything, - Why do patches don't disappear from the opensuse-updater summary window after installing them with YOU, - Why does opensuse-updater like to invoke yast2 as yast2 which is not in the PATH instead of /sbin/yast2, - Why has zypp forgotten about the LABEL field in the 'content' file of YaST2 channels?

These things are interestingly all working with zmd, where I'm constantly being told that nothing works.

Real world experience is certainly not everything, but its also something. And it seems that for most the issue of having zmd update error seems more noticeable than the fact that there is no label in the repositories when you add via zypper, for example. And I will repeat this again: you want zmd to be the crutch of yast. This is completely wrong. What we need is a working system, not a buggy system, that has zmd to "correct" issues. Because then Id have to ask myself if we shouldnt have another daemon running, looking after zmd, in case it ahs some problems, in case some data gets bad, in case it gives some error...

Btw. right now I don't have zmd installed either and I don't miss it, but it's interesting because this way it's possible to see all the not yet finished/not yet working places in the other tools. Of course I will just file bugs for these issues instead of asking for removal of these tools from the distribution.

Thanks for the bug-filing. By the way, I havent hit any of those bugs you mentioned (I did notice the label issue, but I think its minor). Maybe because I dont have cd repositories and I dont use the updater app. I havent hit the zmd bugs the first post talks about, but well, I dont have it installed. Ill try to observe what people complain most. And yes, I understand that there must be less people using the new non-zen tools I will file bugs when I can and will keep asking for removal when I can too. Best regards and Im serious about that, no sarcasm Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org