Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about the architecture of package management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think that we should clarify longer term goals. Which imho must be to not have zmd installed by default on openSUSE, as it causes problems and unnecessary complexity without adding functionality that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if official people agree with this?
With zypper (cli) and opensuse-updater (updater applet) it is within grasp to not have zmd+friends on KDE installations. It's more problematic for GNOME as removing zmd would mean no updater applet would be available for them. But this should be fixable for 10.3.
Nat Budin did this image to illustrate package management on 10.1: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Package-management-in-code10.png
I've done a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for comparison - maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users: http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
Whether or not this architecture is feasible for 10.2, depends on the stability of zypper and opensuse-updater. Therefore I recommend to test it a lot.
To be able to test it thouroughly we need updates though. One of the lessons learned from the 10.1 debacle was that a lot of the problems didn't become apparent until we had multiple repositories and update repos to test with.
This repo exists: http://ftp.belnet.be/linux/suse/suse/update/10.1.42/
But there are no packages there. Would it be possible to provide some sort of dummy updates?
Also some repos exist for Factory on the buildservice with newer packages than the ones in factory. Which is useful for testing the package management in more of a real life scenario.
Note that at the present zypper is missing from factory, but I assume that'll be remedied soon. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=216585
At the very least 10.2 users should be able to remove zmd+friends and still have cli (zypper) and an updater applet (KDE users only), which in it self is one of many improvements in 10.2 over 10.1.
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On Tuesday 31 October 2006 15:17, Martin Schlander wrote:
Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about the architecture of package management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think that we should clarify longer term goals. Which imho must be to not have zmd installed by default on openSUSE, as it causes problems and unnecessary complexity without adding functionality that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if official people agree with this?
I'm not officially a person ;) but the sooner ZMD et al disappear from my systems the better. At the moment, zen-updater has lost my update sources and packman, so it doesn't go orange when updates are available. I didn't notice when this happened. I've given up caring, and I now no longer run it, ever! The update and packman repositories still show up fine (and work fine) in YaST and YOU, so I just try to remember to run YOU once every week or so to collect and install updates. Nice to have delta-rpms back :)
I have the 10.2 Beta1 DVD burned and ready to install experimentally, which I hope to get round to tomorrow. I'll be interested to see how the opensuse-updater behaves. Well, I hope (could hardly be worse than zen-updater).
With zypper (cli) and opensuse-updater (updater applet) it is within grasp to not have zmd+friends on KDE installations.
That would indeed be excellent news.
With zypper (cli) and opensuse-updater (updater applet) it is within grasp to not have zmd+friends on KDE installations.
That would indeed be excellent news.
I, too, would consider this a great idea. I'm never get the ZMD stuff to work properly on my system (don't know if that's a zmd or zypp problem, however).
But generally it's better to have a simple, robust, but especially working system for the package management. Nowadays it's seems there is a complex interaction between zmd, rug, libzypp, yast2-package-management and now the opensuse-updater (and all the dependancies - mono and stuff).
And the interaction is less than perfect - why e.g. don't installation sources I add with YAST appear in rug, but if I add them with rug they don't appear in YAST? Is this amount of complexity really needed? Just consider smart, which - despite some other shortcomings - shows how simple package management could be handled, without lots of complex programs and demons interacting.
Just my 2 cents. I, for whatever it's worth, would welcome the implemantation of such a proposal.
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Alex wrote:
With zypper (cli) and opensuse-updater (updater applet) it is within grasp to not have zmd+friends on KDE installations.
That would indeed be excellent news.
I, too, would consider this a great idea.
Yes, this tools requires testing though, I encourage the readers of this list to test them, I see them as the light and the end of the tunnel...
I'm never get the ZMD stuff to work properly on my system (don't know if that's a zmd or zypp problem, however).
that's because it does not work properly, or if it does, it is too slow and complex.
But generally it's better to have a simple, robust, but especially working system for the package management. Nowadays it's seems there is a complex interaction between zmd, rug, libzypp, yast2-package-management and now the opensuse-updater (and all the dependancies - mono and stuff).
Yes, we need something that the vast mayority of **openSUSE**, an **end-user** targeted distro needs.
And the interaction is less than perfect -
It is a hack.
why e.g. don't installation sources I add with YAST appear in rug, but if I add them with rug they don't appear in YAST? Is this amount of complexity really needed?
No, it is not needed, but somebody at novell thought it was needed. go figure...
Just consider smart, which - despite some other shortcomings - shows how simple package management could be handled, without lots of complex programs and demons interacting.
Smart has it's own sets of problems, but yes, we need "something" like smart ( but without it's problems of course ;) )
I received the below message from Duncan. I believe it was sent only to me by mistake, therefore I forward it here as I believe it's important.
On Tuesday 31 October 2006 16:17, Martin Schlander wrote:
Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about the architecture of package management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think that we should clarify longer term goals. Which imho must be to not have zmd installed by default on openSUSE, as it causes problems and unnecessary complexity without adding functionality that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if official people agree with this?
Doing an updater applet for Gnome is really easy. But we should see if it is possible to extend the zen-updater to make it multi-backend.
Basically a direct-system applet does:
start, every X time, launches /usr/sbin/zypp-check-patches-wrapper parses xml output and display it in a fancy mode. offers a button to launch yast2 inst_source and yast2_onlineupdate
That is. All the logic, caching, etc, is in zypp helper.
Perhaps a nice chance for the communty to contribute some lines of code.
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* Martin Schlander suse@linuxin.dk [Oct 31. 2006 16:17]:
Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about the architecture of package management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think that we should clarify longer term goals.
Agreed.
Which imho must be to not have zmd installed by default on openSUSE,
This is not a matter of architecture (even 10.1 doesn't require zmd to be installed in order to get updates) but of product/marketing requirements.
as it causes problems and unnecessary complexity without adding functionality that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if official people agree with this?
From an openSUSE perspective, ZENworks features are not very rewarding.
The SLE (SuSE Linux Enterprise) perspective however is quite different. The integration of ZENworks and YaST is very welcome.
Going forward, we will work more towards a unified architecture for openSUSE and SLE.
I've done a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for comparison - maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users: http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
That should match 10.2Beta1 ;-)
Whether or not this architecture is feasible for 10.2, depends on the stability of zypper and opensuse-updater. Therefore I recommend to test it a lot.
Fully agreeed. We also welcome suggestions for zypper to make it a true replacement for y2pmsh.
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Torsdag 02 november 2006 15:25 skrev Klaus Kaempf:
From an openSUSE perspective, ZENworks features are not very rewarding.
The SLE (SuSE Linux Enterprise) perspective however is quite different. The integration of ZENworks and YaST is very welcome.
Going forward, we will work more towards a unified architecture for openSUSE and SLE.
Could you elaborate? Does that mean huge rewrites of zmd and rug? .. or does it mean more of the stuff we've already gotten used to with the synchronization and the helpers?
I've done a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for comparison - maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users: http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
That should match 10.2Beta1 ;-)
No, on 10.2b1 you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME also an updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans it up. On 10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than on 10.1, with zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
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* Martin Schlander suse@linuxin.dk [Nov 02. 2006 16:21]:
Going forward, we will work more towards a unified architecture for openSUSE and SLE.
Could you elaborate? Does that mean huge rewrites of zmd and rug? .. or does it mean more of the stuff we've already gotten used to with the synchronization and the helpers?
It means a package management stack which is shared across community and enterprise products and flexible enough to fulfill the needs of both sides. It should not force unwanted/unneeded functionality onto a product and follow open and established standards as far as possible.
How this will look like in the end, I don't know yet.
I've done a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for comparison - maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users: http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
That should match 10.2Beta1 ;-)
No, on 10.2b1 you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME also an updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans it up. On 10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than on 10.1, with zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
Well, we cleaned up the stack dependencies. You can deselect the ZENworks pattern without loosing functionality (update applet and command line tool). The resulting package management stack should match your picture.
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Torsdag 02 november 2006 17:31 skrev Klaus Kaempf:
No, on 10.2b1 you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME also an updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans it up. On 10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than on 10.1, with zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
Well, we cleaned up the stack dependencies. You can deselect the ZENworks pattern without loosing functionality (update applet and command line tool). The resulting package management stack should match your picture.
Yes, and for that I'm personally very thankful, and I can't wait to use it on a daily basis. Only I had hopes that it would be the default for openSUSE if not now, then for 10.3 at least, but we'll wait and see what happens, maybe the stack can be made even nicer.
If zypper is built for 10.1 like Mvidner mentioned on bugzilla I'll surely be happy to use it and test it here too. If a package is made available please make sure to announce it. We can't appreciate all the cool stuff that you do for us if we don't know about it.
In my capacity of translator I just noticed that a pattern has been made for "lightweight package management", very nice. I wonder however if this means changes wrt. zypper and opensuse-updater installed by default on KDE.
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Martin Schlander suse@linuxin.dk writes:
Torsdag 02 november 2006 17:31 skrev Klaus Kaempf:
No, on 10.2b1 you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME also an updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans it up. On 10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than on 10.1, with zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
Well, we cleaned up the stack dependencies. You can deselect the ZENworks pattern without loosing functionality (update applet and command line tool). The resulting package management stack should match your picture.
Yes, and for that I'm personally very thankful, and I can't wait to use it on a daily basis. Only I had hopes that it would be the default for openSUSE if not now, then for 10.3 at least, but we'll wait and see what happens, maybe the stack can be made even nicer.
If zypper is built for 10.1 like Mvidner mentioned on bugzilla I'll surely be happy to use it and test it here too. If a package is made available please make sure to announce it. We can't appreciate all the cool stuff that you do for us if we don't know about it.
In my capacity of translator I just noticed that a pattern has been made for "lightweight package management", very nice. I wonder however if this means changes wrt. zypper and opensuse-updater installed by default on KDE.
The new pattern is not installed by default,
Andreas
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