31 Oct
2006
31 Oct
'06
4:17 p.m.
Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about the architecture of package
management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think that we should clarify longer term
goals. Which imho must be to not have zmd installed by default on openSUSE,
as it causes problems and unnecessary complexity without adding functionality
that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if official people agree with this?
With zypper (cli) and opensuse-updater (updater applet) it is within grasp to
not have zmd+friends on KDE installations. It's more problematic for GNOME as
removing zmd would mean no updater applet would be available for them. But
this should be fixable for 10.3.
Nat Budin did this image to illustrate package management on 10.1:
http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Package-management-in-code10.png
I've done a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for comparison -
maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users:
http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
Whether or not this architecture is feasible for 10.2, depends on the
stability of zypper and opensuse-updater. Therefore I recommend to test it a
lot.
To be able to test it thouroughly we need updates though. One of the lessons
learned from the 10.1 debacle was that a lot of the problems didn't become
apparent until we had multiple repositories and update repos to test with.
This repo exists:
http://ftp.belnet.be/linux/suse/suse/update/10.1.42/
But there are no packages there. Would it be possible to provide some sort of
dummy updates?
Also some repos exist for Factory on the buildservice with newer packages than
the ones in factory. Which is useful for testing the package management in
more of a real life scenario.
Note that at the present zypper is missing from factory, but I assume that'll
be remedied soon.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=216585
At the very least 10.2 users should be able to remove zmd+friends and still
have cli (zypper) and an updater applet (KDE users only), which in it self is
one of many improvements in 10.2 over 10.1.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help(a)opensuse.org
2 Nov
2 Nov
7:13 p.m.
Martin Schlander <suse(a)linuxin.dk> writes:
Torsdag 02 november 2006 17:31 skrev Klaus Kaempf:
Yes, and for that I'm personally very thankful, and I can't wait to use it on
a daily basis. Only I had hopes that it would be the default for openSUSE if
not now, then for 10.3 at least, but we'll wait and see what happens, maybe
the stack can be made even nicer.
If zypper is built for 10.1 like Mvidner mentioned on bugzilla I'll surely be
happy to use it and test it here too. If a package is made available please
make sure to announce it. We can't appreciate all the cool stuff that you do
for us if we don't know about it.
In my capacity of translator I just noticed that a pattern has been made
for "lightweight package management", very nice. I wonder however if this
means changes wrt. zypper and opensuse-updater installed by default on KDE.
The new pattern is not installed by default,
Andreas
--
Andreas Jaeger, aj(a)suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
No, on
10.2b1 you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME
also an updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans
it up. On 10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than
on 10.1, with zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
Well, we cleaned up the stack dependencies. You can deselect the ZENworks
pattern without loosing functionality (update applet and command line
tool). The resulting package management stack should match your picture.
6:10 p.m.
Torsdag 02 november 2006 17:31 skrev Klaus Kaempf:
Yes, and for that I'm personally very thankful, and I can't wait to use it on
a daily basis. Only I had hopes that it would be the default for openSUSE if
not now, then for 10.3 at least, but we'll wait and see what happens, maybe
the stack can be made even nicer.
If zypper is built for 10.1 like Mvidner mentioned on bugzilla I'll surely be
happy to use it and test it here too. If a package is made available please
make sure to announce it. We can't appreciate all the cool stuff that you do
for us if we don't know about it.
In my capacity of translator I just noticed that a pattern has been made
for "lightweight package management", very nice. I wonder however if this
means changes wrt. zypper and opensuse-updater installed by default on KDE.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help(a)opensuse.org
No, on 10.2b1
you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME
also an updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans
it up. On 10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than
on 10.1, with zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
Well, we cleaned up the stack dependencies. You can deselect the ZENworks
pattern without loosing functionality (update applet and command line
tool). The resulting package management stack should match your picture. 
5:31 p.m.
* Martin Schlander <suse(a)linuxin.dk> [Nov 02. 2006 16:21]:
It means a package management stack which is shared across
community and enterprise products and flexible enough to
fulfill the needs of both sides.
It should not force unwanted/unneeded functionality onto
a product and follow open and established standards as
far as possible.
How this will look like in the end, I don't know yet.
No, on 10.2b1 you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME also an
updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans it up. On
10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than on 10.1, with
zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
Well, we cleaned up the stack dependencies. You can deselect the ZENworks
pattern without loosing functionality (update applet and command line tool).
The resulting package management stack should match your picture.
Klaus
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help(a)opensuse.org
Going forward, we will work more towards a unified architecture for
openSUSE and SLE.
Could you elaborate? Does that mean huge rewrites of zmd and rug? .. or does
it mean more of the stuff we've already gotten used to with the
synchronization and the helpers? I've
done a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for
comparison - maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users:
http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
That should match 10.2Beta1 ;-)
4:21 p.m.
Torsdag 02 november 2006 15:25 skrev Klaus Kaempf:
Could you elaborate? Does that mean huge rewrites of zmd and rug? .. or does
it mean more of the stuff we've already gotten used to with the
synchronization and the helpers?
No, on 10.2b1 you would have to add zmd+helpers and rug, and on GNOME also an
updater applet using Zmd. At least until the user manually cleans it up. On
10.2b1 the package management stack is even more complex than on 10.1, with
zypper and opensuse-updater added and nothing cleaned up.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help(a)opensuse.org
From an
openSUSE perspective, ZENworks features are not very rewarding.
The SLE (SuSE Linux Enterprise) perspective however is quite different. The
integration of ZENworks and YaST is very welcome.
Going forward, we will work more towards a unified architecture for
openSUSE and SLE. I've done
a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for
comparison - maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users:
http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
That should match 10.2Beta1 ;-)
3:25 p.m.
* Martin Schlander <suse(a)linuxin.dk> [Oct 31. 2006 16:17]:
Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about the
architecture of package
management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think that we should clarify longer term
goals.
Agreed.
Which imho must be to not have zmd installed by
default on openSUSE,
This is not a matter of architecture (even 10.1 doesn't require zmd to
be installed in order to get updates) but of product/marketing requirements.
as it causes problems and unnecessary complexity
without adding functionality
that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if official people agree with this?
From an openSUSE perspective, ZENworks features are not
very rewarding.
The SLE (SuSE Linux Enterprise) perspective however is quite
different. The
integration of ZENworks and YaST is very welcome.
Going forward, we will work more towards a unified architecture for openSUSE
and SLE.
I've done a quick mock-up of how it could look in the future for comparison -
maybe already in 10.2 for KDE users:
http://suse.linuxin.dk/pm102.png
That should match 10.2Beta1 ;-)
Whether or not this architecture is feasible for 10.2, depends on the
stability of zypper and opensuse-updater. Therefore I recommend to test it a
lot.
Fully agreeed.
We also welcome suggestions for zypper to make it a true replacement
for y2pmsh.
Klaus
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help(a)opensuse.org
1 Nov
1 Nov
2:36 p.m.
I received the below message from Duncan. I believe it was sent only to me by
mistake, therefore I forward it here as I believe it's important.
On Tuesday 31 October 2006 16:17, Martin Schlander wrote:
Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about the
architecture of
package management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think that we should clarify longer
term goals. Which imho must be to not have zmd installed by default on
openSUSE, as it causes problems and unnecessary complexity without adding
functionality that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if official people
agree with this?
Doing an updater applet for Gnome is really easy. But we should see if it is
possible to extend the zen-updater to make it multi-backend.
Basically a direct-system applet does:
start,
every X time, launches /usr/sbin/zypp-check-patches-wrapper
parses xml output and display it in a fancy mode.
offers a button to launch yast2 inst_source and yast2_onlineupdate
That is. All the logic, caching, etc, is in zypp helper.
Perhaps a nice chance for the communty to contribute some lines of code.
Duncan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help(a)opensuse.org
6:32 a.m.
Alex wrote:
I, too, would consider this a great idea.
Yes, this tools requires testing though, I encourage the readers of this
list to test them, I see them as the light and the end of the tunnel...
With zypper (cli) and opensuse-updater (updater
applet) it is
within grasp to not have zmd+friends on KDE installations.
That would indeed be
excellent news. I'm never get the ZMD stuff to work
properly on my system (don't know if that's a zmd or zypp problem, however).
that's because it does not work properly, or if it does, it is too slow
and complex.
But generally it's better to have a simple,
robust, but especially working
system for the package management. Nowadays it's seems there is a complex
interaction between zmd, rug, libzypp, yast2-package-management and now the
opensuse-updater (and all the dependancies - mono and stuff).
Yes, we need something that the vast mayority of **openSUSE**, an
**end-user** targeted distro needs.
And the interaction is less than perfect -
It is a hack.
why e.g. don't installation sources
I add with YAST appear in rug, but if I add them with rug they don't appear
in YAST? Is this amount of complexity really needed?
No, it is not needed, but somebody at novell thought it was needed. go
figure...
Just consider smart,
which - despite some other shortcomings - shows how simple package management
could be handled, without lots of complex programs and demons interacting.
Smart has it's own sets of problems, but yes, we need "something" like
smart ( but without it's problems of course ;) )
5:39 a.m.
With zypper
(cli) and opensuse-updater (updater applet) it is
within grasp to not have zmd+friends on KDE installations.
That would indeed be
excellent news. 
31 Oct
31 Oct
10:14 p.m.
On Tuesday 31 October 2006 15:17, Martin Schlander wrote:
Presently discussion is on-going in bugzilla about
the
architecture of package management, mostly wrt. 10.2. I think
that we should clarify longer term goals. Which imho must be
to not have zmd installed by default on openSUSE, as it
causes problems and unnecessary complexity without adding
functionality that the openSUSE users need. I'm curious if
official people agree with this?
I'm not officially a person ;) but the sooner ZMD et al
disappear from my systems the better. At the moment,
zen-updater has lost my update sources and packman, so it
doesn't go orange when updates are available. I didn't notice
when this happened. I've given up caring, and I now no longer
run it, ever! The update and packman repositories still show up
fine (and work fine) in YaST and YOU, so I just try to remember
to run YOU once every week or so to collect and install
updates. Nice to have delta-rpms back :)
I have the 10.2 Beta1 DVD burned and ready to install
experimentally, which I hope to get round to tomorrow. I'll be
interested to see how the opensuse-updater behaves. Well, I
hope (could hardly be worse than zen-updater).
With zypper (cli) and opensuse-updater (updater
applet) it is
within grasp to not have zmd+friends on KDE installations.
That would indeed be excellent news.
--
Bill Gallafent.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help(a)opensuse.org
5200
days inactive
5202
days old
9 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Alex -
Andreas Jaeger -
Cristian Rodriguez R. -
Klaus Kaempf -
Martin Schlander -
William Gallafent