[opensuse-factory] Kmail 4.7 is not shippable in 12.1
Hi, I have upgrade my system yesterday from 11.4 to 12.1 after some testing and most seem to work fine but I haven't tested KMail. I thought after it was delayed for so long it should work. But after starting it the migration failed and the program crashed. I thought this might have something to do that I had a newer version of Kmail for some time (from Tumbleweed) so I removed all akonadi, kmail, kontact and so on settings and directories in my home directory and only restored the kmail folder and the kmailrc. After that the automatic kmail import still failed so I used the kmail-migrator which seems to work fine but if you start Kmail you have your folders but in them are only a few mails which can't really be accessed. Kmail seems to load forever. And even the imap folders shown only some mails. After running kmail-migrator Akonadi and Mysql had a high cpu usage which seems to have something to do with an error posted in console during running kmail-migrator. So do you seriously want people to upgrade or reinstall with a home directory from 11.4 and get all their mails messed up? Not everyone does a backup even if they should. I mean even if there are not so many Kmail users it worked most of the time for me in the past. Not to mention that it is not so easy to import all your data from this Akonadi mix. So isn't it possible to ship the "old" Kmail from 4.6 instead, like it was done in the past by the KDE team? Some bugs are not a problem imho but it really seems to be utterly broken and according to forum entries and the IRC other people seem to have the same problem. Tim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 07 Nov 2011 09:00:16 Tim wrote:
Hi,
I have upgrade my system yesterday from 11.4 to 12.1 after some testing and most seem to work fine but I haven't tested KMail. I thought after it was delayed for so long it should work.
But after starting it the migration failed and the program crashed. I thought this might have something to do that I had a newer version of Kmail for some time (from Tumbleweed) so I removed all akonadi, kmail, kontact and so on settings and directories in my home directory and only restored the kmail folder and the kmailrc.
"Could not load the resource folder" or something like that?
After that the automatic kmail import still failed so I used the kmail-migrator which seems to work fine but if you start Kmail you have your folders but in them are only a few mails which can't really be accessed. Kmail seems to load forever.
Bug reports please!
And even the imap folders shown only some mails.
After running kmail-migrator Akonadi and Mysql had a high cpu usage which seems to have something to do with an error posted in console during running kmail-migrator.
Please let us know the error message from the migrator in the bug report
So do you seriously want people to upgrade or reinstall with a home directory from 11.4 and get all their mails messed up? Not everyone does a backup even if they should.
We're writing some KMail specific release notes to smooth the upgrade.
I mean even if there are not so many Kmail users it worked most of the time for me in the past. Not to mention that it is not so easy to import all your data from this Akonadi mix.
So isn't it possible to ship the "old" Kmail from 4.6 instead, like it was done in the past by the KDE team? Some bugs are not a problem imho but it really seems to be utterly broken and according to forum entries and the IRC other people seem to have the same problem.
No, unfortunately. We looked at this early on in the 12.1 cycle. In 11.4 we shipped the "old" Kmail from 4.4 with KDE 4.6, which sort of worked. Enough small changes in the runtime behaviour of kdepimlibs (while maintaining the promised binary compatibility of the platform) have accumulated since 4.4 that KMail 4.4 runs less reliably when using kdepimlibs 4.7 than KMail 4.7. We've got a thread on opensuse-kde@opensuse.org specifically for KMail/Kontact, please contribute specific issues so we can fix them in a prompt online update there. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, since I didn't got any answer I am sending this to factory too and just try to be straightforward. There are so many forum entries about openSUSE 12.1 and Kmail 4.7 in particular where people are complaining about it. Many openSUSE-KDE users who are no experts might think that openSUSE is "poor" if they ship such a buggy default mail client like this. And like I mentioned I think KDE users are the biggest user base of openSUSE and openSUSE is often recommend if people want to use KDE. Please don't get me wrong, I am not blaming, just don't make this mistake. I think incidents like this are the reasons for people to change the distribution. And it is really hard to lose a certain reputation. Not a long time ago I was asked if zypper is now better working then in openSUSE 10 because they had such a bad experience and they had never tried openSUSE again since then. So please if Kmail 4.4 still works with 12.1 use it. I shouldn't even be much of a maintenance case since it should be stable and is still maintained for 11.4. For experimental people there could be a separate repository shipping kmail 4.7 or people use the state of the art KDE repository. Tim On 11/07/2011 10:18 AM, Will Stephenson wrote:
On Monday 07 Nov 2011 09:00:16 Tim wrote:
Hi,
I have upgrade my system yesterday from 11.4 to 12.1 after some testing and most seem to work fine but I haven't tested KMail. I thought after it was delayed for so long it should work.
But after starting it the migration failed and the program crashed. I thought this might have something to do that I had a newer version of Kmail for some time (from Tumbleweed) so I removed all akonadi, kmail, kontact and so on settings and directories in my home directory and only restored the kmail folder and the kmailrc. "Could not load the resource folder" or something like that? Message Box 1 after the migration: "Migration to KMail 2 failed. In case you want to try again, run 'kmail-migrator --interactive' manually."
After confirming the last message box I got another one in Kmail: "KMail encountered a fatal error and will terminate now. The error was: Failed to fetch the resource collection." After confirming that Kmail vanishes except of the mail account creation dialog.
After that the automatic kmail import still failed so I used the kmail-migrator which seems to work fine but if you start Kmail you have your folders but in them are only a few mails which can't really be accessed. Kmail seems to load forever. Bug reports please!
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=728755 I couldn't confirm the problem with the manual migration because Kmail doesn't work after it anymore too. Is there any documentation which files are needed for a successful import. Just the kmail directory in apps and the kmailrc doesn't seem to be enough for the mails.
And even the imap folders shown only some mails.
After running kmail-migrator Akonadi and Mysql had a high cpu usage which seems to have something to do with an error posted in console during running kmail-migrator. Please let us know the error message from the migrator in the bug report
So do you seriously want people to upgrade or reinstall with a home directory from 11.4 and get all their mails messed up? Not everyone does a backup even if they should. We're writing some KMail specific release notes to smooth the upgrade.
I am not sure if the affected people are really reading this but ...
I mean even if there are not so many Kmail users it worked most of the time for me in the past. Not to mention that it is not so easy to import all your data from this Akonadi mix.
So isn't it possible to ship the "old" Kmail from 4.6 instead, like it was done in the past by the KDE team? Some bugs are not a problem imho but it really seems to be utterly broken and according to forum entries and the IRC other people seem to have the same problem. No, unfortunately. We looked at this early on in the 12.1 cycle. In 11.4 we shipped the "old" Kmail from 4.4 with KDE 4.6, which sort of worked. Enough small changes in the runtime behaviour of kdepimlibs (while maintaining the promised binary compatibility of the platform) have accumulated since 4.4 that KMail 4.4 runs less reliably when using kdepimlibs 4.7 than KMail 4.7.
I know and it worked fine. And I am not the only one with problems: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/pre-release-beta/... I have also asked on IRC and people were talking about problems too. So I would suggest to ship Kmail 4.4, if it wouldn't be such a huge effort to maintain the old release. It can't be worse than what people might experiencing when upgrading/installing and trying to use it. I mean we are talking about the default openSUSE KDE mail client. And afaik more openSUSE user are using KDE than Gnome.
We've got a thread on opensuse-kde@opensuse.org specifically for KMail/Kontact, please contribute specific issues so we can fix them in a prompt online update there.
Will
Thanks for your help and let me know if you need any additional logs or information. Tim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/09/2011 09:40 AM, Tim wrote:
Hi,
since I didn't got any answer I am sending this to factory too and just try to be straightforward.
There are so many forum entries about openSUSE 12.1 and Kmail 4.7 in particular where people are complaining about it.
Many openSUSE-KDE users who are no experts might think that openSUSE is "poor" if they ship such a buggy default mail client like this. And like I mentioned I think KDE users are the biggest user base of openSUSE and openSUSE is often recommend if people want to use KDE.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not blaming, just don't make this mistake. I think incidents like this are the reasons for people to change the distribution. Try a different mailer first :-) I know more of a handful KDE contributors which don't use it anymore. AFAIR, almost all of them switched to Thunderbird, some use Claws-mail.
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus points are: * Known to Windows users / can switch easily * No breakage sinse >3 years * Has a truckload of plugins * Can integrate really well into $DESKTOP (needs plugins) * Gnome would benefit too It's basically the same like: * We ship Firefox instead of Konquerer/rekonq and Epiphany * We ship LibreOffice instead of KOffice and Gnome-Office * We ship systemd (and sysvinit for an interim period) instead of upstart, bsd-init and all the others. These where all strong decisions, but they show a certain vision for openSUSE. Having a vision is surely better that we-package-whatever-crap-upstream-invents (tm). Vision means focus, focus means concentrating on doing one thing good instead everything in a mediocre way. This is the exact same story for KPackageKit/Apper/the-thing-that-was-developed-two-seconds-before-release (tm). Instead of being religions, we should have just shipped nm-applet and enjoyed a working NetworkManager ;-) Getting back to KDEPIM (that's what the original post really was about), I already started some package splitting to not having to install akonadi. Right now I'm happily running a KDE desktop without KDEPIM/Akoandi. It's fast, it's working and it doesn't get in my way. The only crap packages left are: kdepimlibs4, libkdepimlibs4, libakonadi4, libakonadiprotocolinternals1 I'm willing to work on that too...
And it is really hard to lose a certain reputation. Not a long time ago I was asked if zypper is now better working then in openSUSE 10 because they had such a bad experience and they had never tried openSUSE again since then. -- Viele Grüße, Sascha
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus points are:
We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop. It is funny that most bugs people report here are KDE bugs. I have not experienced those either with XFCE nor with GNOME3. Obviously (I don't dare to test) this KDE stuff has bitrotted severely over the years.
It's basically the same like:
* We ship Firefox instead of Konquerer/rekonq and Epiphany * We ship LibreOffice instead of KOffice and Gnome-Office * We ship systemd (and sysvinit for an interim period) instead of upstart, bsd-init and all the others.
These where all strong decisions, but they show a certain vision for openSUSE. Having a vision is surely better that we-package-whatever-crap-upstream-invents (tm). Vision means focus, focus means concentrating on doing one thing good instead everything in a mediocre way.
This is the exact same story for KPackageKit/Apper/the-thing-that-was-developed-two-seconds-before-release (tm). Instead of being religions, we should have just shipped nm-applet and enjoyed a working NetworkManager ;-)
Oh - and bluetoth-applet instead of the kde bluetooth non-working stuff. xfce4-power-manager instead of the kde powermanagement non-working stuff. Well, not much would be left over from KDE probably ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2011/11/9 Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com>:
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus points are:
We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
Amen to that "brother"!
It is funny that most bugs people report here are KDE bugs. I have not experienced those either with XFCE nor with GNOME3.
Obviously (I don't dare to test) this KDE stuff has bitrotted severely over the years.
It's basically the same like:
* We ship Firefox instead of Konquerer/rekonq and Epiphany * We ship LibreOffice instead of KOffice and Gnome-Office * We ship systemd (and sysvinit for an interim period) instead of upstart, bsd-init and all the others.
These where all strong decisions, but they show a certain vision for openSUSE. Having a vision is surely better that we-package-whatever-crap-upstream-invents (tm). Vision means focus, focus means concentrating on doing one thing good instead everything in a mediocre way.
This is the exact same story for KPackageKit/Apper/the-thing-that-was-developed-two-seconds-before-release (tm). Instead of being religions, we should have just shipped nm-applet and enjoyed a working NetworkManager ;-)
Oh - and bluetoth-applet instead of the kde bluetooth non-working stuff. xfce4-power-manager instead of the kde powermanagement non-working stuff.
Well, not much would be left over from KDE probably ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried
"Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus
points are: We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
Got some more incendiary bombs you want to toss about?
It is funny that most bugs people report here are KDE bugs. I have not experienced those either with XFCE nor with GNOME3.
Perhaps that's a corollary of most openSUSE people using KDE. I haven't seen many Windows bugs reported here either, by your logic we should just put that on the DVD.
Obviously (I don't dare to test) this KDE stuff has bitrotted severely over the years.
Trolling. I expect better from you. Moderator, please keep a close eye on this thread, it's going to be a gigantic waste of time. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2011/11/9 Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de>:
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus
points are: We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
Got some more incendiary bombs you want to toss about?
If you read bellow on your email, you ask for moderator to intervene fearing for trolling, but on the other hand, you make a clear provocation to encourage trolling. Does this bomb pack enough firepower for you, or should we move to the nukes ? He is right, openSUSE has earned pretty much nothing with such change. In fact you have even openFATE entries stating the same and requesting to rollback to GNOME, so, he's not alone on this, more people support this.
It is funny that most bugs people report here are KDE bugs. I have not experienced those either with XFCE nor with GNOME3.
Perhaps that's a corollary of most openSUSE people using KDE. I haven't seen many Windows bugs reported here either, by your logic we should just put that on the DVD.
I'm just wondering on % of GNOME _active_ contributors vs % KDE contributors (from the community, this means those who are not in sponsors payroll).
Obviously (I don't dare to test) this KDE stuff has bitrotted severely over the years.
Trolling. I expect better from you.
Moderator, please keep a close eye on this thread, it's going to be a gigantic waste of time.
Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:12:44 Nelson Marques wrote:
2011/11/9 Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de>:
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus
points are: We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
Got some more incendiary bombs you want to toss about?
If you read bellow on your email, you ask for moderator to intervene fearing for trolling, but on the other hand, you make a clear provocation to encourage trolling.
You misrepresent me. My above question accuses Stefan of irresponsible flaming. Now go and do something productive. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2011/11/9 Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de>:
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:12:44 Nelson Marques wrote:
2011/11/9 Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de>:
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus
points are: We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
Got some more incendiary bombs you want to toss about?
If you read bellow on your email, you ask for moderator to intervene fearing for trolling, but on the other hand, you make a clear provocation to encourage trolling.
You misrepresent me. My above question accuses Stefan of irresponsible flaming. Now go and do something productive.
What can be more productive than aknowledging an error (make KDE default) and go on a crusade to fix it? That's pretty much like fixing a CRITICAL bug! By the way, i don't follow orders from you or anyone else on this list, just advice.
Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/09/2011 12:05 PM, Will Stephenson wrote:
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus
points are: We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
Got some more incendiary bombs you want to toss about?
It is funny that most bugs people report here are KDE bugs. I have not experienced those either with XFCE nor with GNOME3.
Perhaps that's a corollary of most openSUSE people using KDE. I haven't seen many Windows bugs reported here either, by your logic we should just put that on the DVD.
Obviously (I don't dare to test) this KDE stuff has bitrotted severely over the years.
Trolling. I expect better from you. You right.
Moderator, please keep a close eye on this thread, it's going to be a gigantic waste of time. Maybe this branch, but please don't fend off my original post. It was nowhere near Seife's rant, but about doing the obvious in the face of lacking manpower to fix (or provide alternate solutions to) the upstream stuff we ship as default. -- Viele Grüße, Sascha
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 12:13:00 Sascha Peilicke wrote:
On 11/09/2011 12:05 PM, Will Stephenson wrote:
On Wednesday 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 09.11.2011 11:23, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus
points are: We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
Got some more incendiary bombs you want to toss about?
It is funny that most bugs people report here are KDE bugs. I have not experienced those either with XFCE nor with GNOME3.
Perhaps that's a corollary of most openSUSE people using KDE. I haven't seen many Windows bugs reported here either, by your logic we should just put that on the DVD.
Obviously (I don't dare to test) this KDE stuff has bitrotted severely over the years.
Trolling. I expect better from you.
You right.
Moderator, please keep a close eye on this thread, it's going to be a gigantic waste of time.
Maybe this branch, but please don't fend off my original post. It was nowhere near Seife's rant, but about doing the obvious in the face of lacking manpower to fix (or provide alternate solutions to) the upstream stuff we ship as default.
Don't worry, I was referring to the subthread with the changed subject not your post. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mittwoch 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
https://features.opensuse.org/306967 https://features.opensuse.org/307495 Live with it, vocal minority! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, we are not going to discuss the default desktop choice again. Please only send mails that touch the original topic (mail clients). Thanks for your consideration. Henne -- Mailing List Admin http://lists.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2011/11/9 Markus Slopianka <markus.s@kdemail.net>:
On Mittwoch 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
https://features.opensuse.org/306967 https://features.opensuse.org/307495
Live with it, vocal minority!
That's because of those decisions that I have a Red Hat subscription and I run RedHat. Thanks for your concern though, but I'm quite happy with RHEL6. :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 13:00, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2011/11/9 Markus Slopianka <markus.s@kdemail.net>:
On Mittwoch 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
https://features.opensuse.org/306967 https://features.opensuse.org/307495
Live with it, vocal minority!
That's because of those decisions that I have a Red Hat subscription and I run RedHat. Thanks for your concern though, but I'm quite happy with RHEL6.
:)
RHEL is a fine distro.... but seriously? Over a radio button pre-selection? It was too hard to click the button next to Gnome during install? Some days I really don't understand the people on this ML. :-P C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2011/11/9 C <smaug42@opensuse.org>:
On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 13:00, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2011/11/9 Markus Slopianka <markus.s@kdemail.net>:
On Mittwoch 09 November 2011 11:45:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:
We should simply revert the mistake of making KDE the default desktop.
https://features.opensuse.org/306967 https://features.opensuse.org/307495
Live with it, vocal minority!
That's because of those decisions that I have a Red Hat subscription and I run RedHat. Thanks for your concern though, but I'm quite happy with RHEL6.
:)
RHEL is a fine distro.... but seriously? Over a radio button pre-selection? It was too hard to click the button next to Gnome during install?
Over 7 years of GNOME2 with support :)
Some days I really don't understand the people on this ML. :-P
C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 09, 2011 at 11:23:28AM +0100, Sascha Peilicke wrote:
On 11/09/2011 09:40 AM, Tim wrote:
since I didn't got any answer I am sending this to factory too and just try to be straightforward.
There are so many forum entries about openSUSE 12.1 and Kmail 4.7 in particular where people are complaining about it.
Many openSUSE-KDE users who are no experts might think that openSUSE is "poor" if they ship such a buggy default mail client like this. And like I mentioned I think KDE users are the biggest user base of openSUSE and openSUSE is often recommend if people want to use KDE.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not blaming, just don't make this mistake. I think incidents like this are the reasons for people to change the distribution.
Try a different mailer first :-) I know more of a handful KDE contributors which don't use it anymore. AFAIR, almost all of them switched to Thunderbird, some use Claws-mail.
I believe we really should make Thunderbird the default choice. Bonus points are:
* Known to Windows users / can switch easily * No breakage sinse >3 years * Has a truckload of plugins * Can integrate really well into $DESKTOP (needs plugins) * Gnome would benefit too
It's basically the same like:
* We ship Firefox instead of Konquerer/rekonq and Epiphany * We ship LibreOffice instead of KOffice and Gnome-Office * We ship systemd (and sysvinit for an interim period) instead of upstart, bsd-init and all the others.
These where all strong decisions, but they show a certain vision for openSUSE. Having a vision is surely better that we-package-whatever-crap-upstream-invents (tm). Vision means focus, focus means concentrating on doing one thing good instead everything in a mediocre way.
Full ack. And I give this even if I'm a big fan of sysvinit. But on the long term this will not help the project to deliver a modern system. From a well working system I expect to get one application to address one purpose right. Think why so many former and long time Linux users nowadays are running a system from Apple. On the one side they don't care about the license and on the other side it looks like they get a well working system. At least better working than the stuff we offer. And who does the same? Ubuntu! And the Benevolent Dictator for Life (BDFL) tries to drive the project from the license point of view into the same direction where Apple already is. With all these many opportunities we offer we make the life sucking hard to our users. And this doesn't only to beginners. I'm quite sure we'll never see this changing. Cause all the religious fights make it impossible to move one step back, monitor the situation without emotions, and to make a reasonable decision. I consider it quite good to have all the opportunities the amount of Open Source Software offers. But to gain more market share based on the amount of users it's counterproductive. Longe life KDE, Gnome, and any other DE. But the winner at the end unfortunately will not be an Open Source Software based operating system. With this reply I'm trying to relocate the thread to opensuse-project as this discussion isn't an issue of opensuse-factory. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2011, 09:40:01 schrieb Tim:
And like I mentioned I think KDE users are the biggest user base of openSUSE and openSUSE is often recommend if people want to use KDE.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not blaming, just don't make this mistake. I think incidents like this are the reasons for people to change the distribution.
And it is really hard to lose a certain reputation. Not a long time ago I was asked if zypper is now better working then in openSUSE 10 because they had such a bad experience and they had never tried openSUSE again since then.
zypper is openSUSE specific, KDE is not. So you are comparing two different things.
So please if Kmail 4.4 still works with 12.1 use it. I shouldn't even be much of a maintenance case since it should be stable and is still maintained for 11.4.
I used 4.4 and I use 4.7 and they both work and they both have defects. I use Thunderbird on other machines as well and guess what – it has issues. For example after it updated itself on Windows thunderbird only started in save mode and a "normal" user was not able to know why or how to change it. Too bad. KDEPIM 4.4 + imap + suspend/resume would be an example why 4.4 is not better than 4.7.
For experimental people there could be a separate repository shipping kmail 4.7 or people use the state of the art KDE repository.
I'd rather ship KDE 4.8 as official update than maintaining something which is not maintained upstream anymore.
After confirming the last message box I got another one in Kmail: "KMail encountered a fatal error and will terminate now. The error was: Failed to fetch the resource collection."
After confirming that Kmail vanishes except of the mail account creation dialog.
Try to open systemsettings > Personal information and check whether there is a local folders resource, if not add it.
I know and it worked fine. And I am not the only one with problems: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/pre-release-beta/ 467339-kmail-issues-12-1-rc2-post2400913.html
I have also asked on IRC and people were talking about problems too.
So I would suggest to ship Kmail 4.4, if it wouldn't be such a huge effort to maintain the old release. It can't be worse than what people might experiencing when upgrading/installing and trying to use it.
They will have to migrate at some point. Moving all your email and addresses to Thunderbird is not less work than migrating manually to kmail2. And upstream will rather concentrate on kmail rather than its migration tools. That might not be how one wishes it to be, but given low resources it is the way it works. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Montag 07 November 2011 10:18:10 Will Stephenson wrote:
We looked at this early on in the 12.1 cycle. In 11.4 we shipped the "old" Kmail from 4.4 with KDE 4.6, which sort of worked. Enough small changes in the runtime behaviour of kdepimlibs (while maintaining the promised binary compatibility of the platform) have accumulated since 4.4 that KMail 4.4 runs less reliably when using kdepimlibs 4.7 than KMail 4.7.
I use Kontact 4.4 on KF 4.7 ever since KR47 was created. No problems. Upstream blogged about the PIM print a while ago. According to that blog post many bugfixes can only end up in Kontact 4.8 because of library changes that are disallowed during a release cycle. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I have upgrade my system yesterday from 11.4 to 12.1 after some testing and most seem to work fine but I haven't tested KMail. I thought after it was delayed for so long it should work.
But after starting it the migration failed and the program crashed. I thought this might have something to do that I had a newer version of Kmail for some time (from Tumbleweed) so I removed all akonadi, kmail, kontact and so on settings and directories in my home directory and only restored the kmail folder and the kmailrc. I hope you have done this right. I have tried to do this often during testing kmail2 before 4.7.2 and is really difficult to remove everything the right way. After that the automatic kmail import still failed so I used the kmail-migrator which seems to work fine but if you start Kmail you have your folders but in them are only a few mails which can't really be accessed. Kmail seems to load forever. Migration failed for me, too, maybe because I already have tried several
Am 07.11.2011 09:00, schrieb Tim: older kmail2 versions from KDF.
And even the imap folders shown only some mails. Especially for IMAP folders it is better and easier to remove the resources and set them up anew. After running kmail-migrator Akonadi and Mysql had a high cpu usage which seems to have something to do with an error posted in console during running kmail-migrator.
So do you seriously want people to upgrade or reinstall with a home directory from 11.4 and get all their mails messed up? Not everyone does a backup even if they should.
I mean even if there are not so many Kmail users it worked most of the time for me in the past. Not to mention that it is not so easy to import all your data from this Akonadi mix.
So isn't it possible to ship the "old" Kmail from 4.6 instead, like it was done in the past by the KDE team? Some bugs are not a problem imho but it really seems to be utterly broken and according to forum entries and the IRC other people seem to have the same problem. For me it looks like you should change the subject to "migration to akonadi fails for 12.1 RC2" and submit some bug reports (But I think most is already in bugzilla).
kmail2 itself works well once one has managed to get it configured. Sure kmail1 was a little better, but at least there is no showstopper in kmail2 itself. Automatic migration is the culprit here. Dropping it and let the user do the migration himself (like he needs to do for migration to other email client as well), would save much time an pain. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Herbert Graeber wrote: Automatic
migration is the culprit here. Dropping it and let the user do the migration himself (like he needs to do for migration to other email client as well), would save much time an pain.
------------- Maybe it is too radical for most people, but I've been running imap since the mid-late 90's. I did so for exactly the reason you have above -- having to deal ( or sometimes wanting to try) multiple email clients. Any email client that tries to store stuff in a private store. Evil. I ran it on the same machine I ran the email clients -- just to separate the mail storage from the email clients and allow all of them to play together. Since then IMAP has only been improved with indexing and search support. Maybe the default on suse should be to install an imap server (partial to dovecot here at this time...was on UW-IMAP in past)... and have clients use that locally via loopback. That way -- no need to migrate mail... Other pieces are more problematic. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:17 AM, "Linda Walsh" <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
Herbert Graeber wrote:
Automatic
migration is the culprit here. Dropping it and let the user do the migration himself (like he needs to do for migration to other email client as well), would save much time an pain.
------------- Maybe it is too radical for most people, but I've been running imap since the mid-late 90's. I did so for exactly the reason you have above -- having to deal ( or sometimes wanting to try) multiple email clients. Any email client that tries to store stuff in a private store.
Evil.
I ran it on the same machine I ran the email clients -- just to separate the mail storage from the email clients and allow all of them to play together. Since then IMAP has only been improved with indexing and search support.
Maybe the default on suse should be to install an imap server (partial to dovecot here at this time...was on UW-IMAP in past)... and have clients use that locally via loopback. That way -- no need to migrate mail...
Other pieces are more problematic.
+1 I use Dovecot on both my laptop and netbook to provide a simple IMAP server only accessibly locally, and imapsync to sync the local imap server with my email account. It's a very nice setup for the reasons you wrote above. Unfortunately I can't see an easy way to automate this setup - people's local email archives are stored in all sorts of different incompatible email programs to begin with, with kmail/akonadi's setup being one of the most opaque. Tim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 22 Nov 2011 08:17:52 Linda Walsh wrote:
Herbert Graeber wrote:
Automatic
migration is the culprit here. Dropping it and let the user do the migration himself (like he needs to do for migration to other email client as well), would save much time an pain.
------------- Maybe it is too radical for most people, but I've been running imap since the mid-late 90's. I did so for exactly the reason you have above -- having to deal ( or sometimes wanting to try) multiple email clients. Any email client that tries to store stuff in a private store.
Evil.
I ran it on the same machine I ran the email clients -- just to separate the mail storage from the email clients and allow all of them to play together. Since then IMAP has only been improved with indexing and search support.
Maybe the default on suse should be to install an imap server (partial to dovecot here at this time...was on UW-IMAP in past)... and have clients use that locally via loopback. That way -- no need to migrate mail...
If you were to connect to Akonadi's local socket (as you can do with akonadiconsole->Raw Socket) you would currently see * OK Akonadi Almost IMAP Server [PROTOCOL 28] Guess what, we did put an imap server with a relatively dumb email client on the desktop. [ Internet ][ Local system ] ( IMAP server) <IMAP> (IMAP resource) <IMAP> (akonadi server) <IMAP> (KMail2) ( POP server) <POP> (POP resource) <IMAP.... .... Local, temporary changes to IMAP mail and the offline cache are stored in the 'evil' private SQL database, but POP mail and other local data are stored in standard format files on disk. We used IMAP for message/item transfer instead of DBUS because IMAP is lightweight and suited to large transfers, and won't load the session DBUS. (DBUS is used as a side channel for resource control). The reason the protocol is called 'Almost IMAP' is because it doesn't need to provide a complete IMAP implementation, and some extensions were added to allow conflict resolution and other Akonadi specific things that I don't remember. We considered dovecot and cyrus before implementing our own stuff, which I also forget the details of, I'll ask upstream. There's nothing KDE specific to Akonadi, and the implementation is pure Qt, so there is no political hindrance to other clients supporting it. Oh, and making KMail a frontend to evolution-data-server was considered in detail, but e-d-s only supports contacts and calendar data - email is all in Evolution. AFAIK e-d-s as desktop email middleware is still being worked on. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> writes:
If you were to connect to Akonadi's local socket (as you can do with akonadiconsole->Raw Socket) you would currently see
* OK Akonadi Almost IMAP Server [PROTOCOL 28]
So does that mean I could connect with a different IMAP client (Emacs Gnus?) and expect it to work?
The reason the protocol is called 'Almost IMAP' is because it doesn't need to provide a complete IMAP implementation, and some extensions were added to allow conflict resolution and other Akonadi specific things that I don't remember.
Where's a documentation of this? Please, no blog postings or some offshoot remark in a bug database... Now, back to the start of this thread and the question was if KMail2 should be shipped to _users_ (not developers). KMail2 itself might actually work OK and things might go swimmingly if I had started with a fresh setup. However my KMail setup goes back to SuSE6.2 and the migration process clearly hasn't been tested on "grown" setups like mine and the diagnostics are lacking any form of useful feedback of what exactly makes it choke. Indeed it cheerfully told me after a few edits in my kmailrc and cleaning out unused folder from my mail directory that "Migration completed successfully.", even though I did not have access to any of my old mails. The same lack of useful diagnostics is apparent in all of the backend infrastructure. Yes there's akonadiconsole, but nothing like that for Nepomuk or Soprano. So, I have to attach myself to DBus to maybe see what is going on and I still haven't found a way to ask if a particular entry has been indexed or not. I'd really want to see this directly in KMail, just like you can see if the mail has been read or not. I'd even want to tell it which mails to index and more importantly when. I didn't think migration would be that bad, but it's been a full week now that I'm trying to get my mail back. Not only does the "automatic" migration not work, manual migration has also proven impossible in my case. I've had to re-create my setup almost from scratch and even then backtrack a lot, often losing a day worth of work already done. The akonadi_mixedmaildir_resource (the one that supposedly reads the old KMail folder structure with mbox and maildir mix) only finds the folder structure, but never actually shows any mail (reported as bug #732883).
From akonadiconsole I can see that the first folder it tries it's hand on it will get stuck and then it just stops responding. Additionally I get a "Local Folder" since the migrator doesn't deal gracefully with the default structure that a fresh akonadi start creates.
When or rather if it finishes indexing my mail this time I'm almost done (there are two folders that I missed to import). The crucial step was to completely remove _all_ pre-existing databases and migration resources: rm -fr ~/.local/share/{{,.}local-mail{,.directory},akonadi} ~/.config/akonadi/ ~/.kde4/share/{config/{k{res,mail}{2rc,-migratorrc},akonadi*,specialcollectionsrc},apps{kmail2,nepomuk/repository/main/data/virtuosobackend} Even then, I've had to edit and kill/re-start processes a lot. It is almost impossible to find out what exactly goes on within Soprano and Nepomuk even when you snoop the D-Bus and there seems to be no tool to diagnose/control them (which is a bad thing in itself). I've had to stop Nepomuk and remove all feeder agents before importing the old mails and copy all entries in akonadiconsole. Doing it through KMail2 would crash the machine after a while and not all mails were copied and indexing the mail during a move or copy seems to produce a lot of errors that may have contributed to later crashes and mails missing in the index. As to the copy problem in KMail, I believe if you do a "select all" on grouped mails and then either a copy or a drag-and-drop, only the visible first mail in each group is actually copied. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:
...,apps{kmail2,nepomuk/repository/main/data/virtuosobackend}
Should have been ...,apps/{kmail2,nepomuk/repository/main/data/virtuosobackend} Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Wavetables for the Terratec KOMPLEXER: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KomplexerWaves -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:
When or rather if it finishes indexing my mail this time I'm almost done (there are two folders that I missed to import).
After letting it run for three days straight at 100% CPU, I can conclude that it would never finish. It's been through all my mail multiple times during this time and it always starts again. The culprit seems to be the email feeder process, which apparently takes the akonadi cache timestamp as indication of what to send to virtuoso instead of checking the timestamp on the mail itself. Since going through all mail will throw out previously indexed mails from the cache, by the time it is done it will start over. I'll investigate a bit more and file a bug report. This also could explain the missing mails in my previous index attempt as the standard setting for the email feeder is to only index what's in cache (at least that's what I think). That also seems to be the cause of the lengthy CPU spike (and further bursts of CPU activity) at KDE startup: the email feeder sends the whole cache to the soprano backend. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Wavetables for the Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldUserWavetables -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (14)
-
Achim Gratz -
C -
Henne Vogelsang -
Herbert Graeber -
Lars Müller -
Linda Walsh -
Markus Slopianka -
Nelson Marques -
Sascha Peilicke -
Stefan Seyfried -
Sven Burmeister -
Tim -
Tim Edwards -
Will Stephenson