[opensuse-factory] A suggestion for partitioning.
One difference I noticed between 13.1 and 13.2 is where to find importing partitions. In 13.1 it's on the same list with other options. In 13.2, you have to select Expert, before you see the option to import. This makes it more difficult for a less experienced person to install on a fresh system. So, please move it back to where it was and belongs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2014-11-13 at 12:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:
One difference I noticed between 13.1 and 13.2 is where to find importing partitions. In 13.1 it's on the same list with other options. In 13.2, you have to select Expert, before you see the option to import. This makes it more difficult for a less experienced person to install on a fresh system. So, please move it back to where it was and belongs.
I'm not sure we need to make things easier for people who don't want to read documentation of any kind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 09:17:05 -0800 Roger Luedecke <roger.luedecke@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2014-11-13 at 12:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:
One difference I noticed between 13.1 and 13.2 is where to find importing partitions. In 13.1 it's on the same list with other options. In 13.2, you have to select Expert, before you see the option to import. This makes it more difficult for a less experienced person to install on a fresh system. So, please move it back to where it was and belongs.
I'm not sure we need to make things easier for people who don't want to read documentation of any kind.
When I was a programmer, that's exactly what I wanted to do. I realised that my job was to make life easier for the users, to encourage them, not to frighten them off. Can't say I was always successful but at least I tried. -- Graham Davis, Bracknell, Berks. openSUSE Tumbleweed (64-bit); KDE 4.14.2; AMD Phenom II X2 550 Processor; Kernel: 3.17.1; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (using nouveau driver); Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/13/2014 06:09 PM, James Knott wrote:
One difference I noticed between 13.1 and 13.2 is where to find importing partitions. In 13.1 it's on the same list with other options. In 13.2, you have to select Expert, before you see the option to import. This makes it more difficult for a less experienced person to install on a fresh system. So, please move it back to where it was and belongs.
yeah, and while at it, it would be nice to use and format a complete disk like /dev/sdb for e.g. /home. I often use this in VMs, i.e., having one virtual disk for the system and swap, and another for /home. I don't need partitions there: $ grep /home /proc/mounts /dev/sdb /home ext4 rw,relatime,data=ordered 0 0 IMHO the "expert" partitioner should support this (OTOH it's no big deal to do it afterward on the command line). Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 11:51:46AM +0100, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
yeah, and while at it, it would be nice to use and format a complete disk like /dev/sdb for e.g. /home. I often use this in VMs, i.e., having one virtual disk for the system and swap, and another for /home. I don't need partitions there:
$ grep /home /proc/mounts /dev/sdb /home ext4 rw,relatime,data=ordered 0 0
IMHO the "expert" partitioner should support this.
This has already been requested (see fate #316251; also closed as usual) but so far always been postponed since it is much work. During hackweek I have evaluated a new design for the data structures in libstorage/yast2-storage (since the current design is over 15 years old), see https://github.com/aschnell/libstorage-bgl-eval and http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2014-10/msg00045.html. That would make your request easy among many other things. Unfortunately I didn't have time since then.
(OTOH it's no big deal to do it afterward on the command line).
Since YaST does not even recognize the filesystem YaST will also not inform the user that a filesystem is destroyed when creating a partition table on the disk. So it's a bit dangerous. Regards, Arvin -- Arvin Schnell, <aschnell@suse.de> Senior Software Engineer, Research & Development SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 14.11.2014 Bernhard Voelker wrote:
yeah, and while at it, it would be nice to use and format a complete disk like /dev/sdb for e.g. /home.
Just out of curiosity, what is the advantage of using the whole disk? Creation one partition and using that does not seem to be that much work. Regards, Johannes - -- Debian est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam nominari Stable, aliam Testing, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Sid, nostra Unstable appellantur. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with SeaMonkey - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlRsV74ACgkQzi3gQ/xETbKoLQCfbHTCP3Q44Z0smUYs7HvPSptR mE0AnRgIHZrAoluwJRDkYO06Uv64AaPV =fFo+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 09:41:34AM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:
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On 14.11.2014 Bernhard Voelker wrote:
yeah, and while at it, it would be nice to use and format a complete disk like /dev/sdb for e.g. /home.
Just out of curiosity, what is the advantage of using the whole disk? Creation one partition and using that does not seem to be that much work.
The reason I heard is for network storage where you can resize the disk online. Then you just have to resize the filesystem and your're done. Otherwise you first have to resize the partition, oh it's in use, so umount it, does not work, shut down services, ... Regards, Arvin -- Arvin Schnell, <aschnell@suse.de> Senior Software Engineer, Research & Development SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19.11.2014 Arvin Schnell wrote:
The reason I heard is for network storage where you can resize the disk online. Then you just have to resize the filesystem and your're done.
Otherwise you first have to resize the partition, oh it's in use, so umount it, does not work, shut down services, ...
Thanks for the answer, that seems like a good reason for that special case. Regards, Johannes - -- Love ist like Pi: Natural, irrational and very important. (unknown) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with SeaMonkey - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlRsbagACgkQzi3gQ/xETbJFGACgkms+vDr8Yp93vHcsvcEciYuF y8cAn1fEYW0FsTeOaABCypl/JyYpQOhs =xe7i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Arvin Schnell composed on 2014-11-19 10:48 (UTC+0100):
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 09:41:34AM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:
Bernhard Voelker wrote:
yeah, and while at it, it would be nice to use and format a complete disk like /dev/sdb for e.g. /home.
Just out of curiosity, what is the advantage of using the whole disk? Creation one partition and using that does not seem to be that much work.
The reason I heard is for network storage where you can resize the disk online. Then you just have to resize the filesystem and your're done.
Conceptually, I can't see a desirable outcome from this. If it's a filesystem on a whole disk, the only choices are do nothing and make it smaller, and if smaller, to what end? Without partitioning, any space freed would be inaccessible. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/19/2014 12:03 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Arvin Schnell composed on 2014-11-19 10:48 (UTC+0100):
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 09:41:34AM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:
Bernhard Voelker wrote:
yeah, and while at it, it would be nice to use and format a complete disk like /dev/sdb for e.g. /home.
Just out of curiosity, what is the advantage of using the whole disk? Creation one partition and using that does not seem to be that much work.
The reason I heard is for network storage where you can resize the disk online. Then you just have to resize the filesystem and your're done.
Conceptually, I can't see a desirable outcome from this. If it's a filesystem on a whole disk, the only choices are do nothing and make it smaller, and if smaller, to what end? Without partitioning, any space freed would be inaccessible.
My use case was data file systems like /home on virtual disks, i.e., VMs. I usually wouldn't make such a file system smaller, but extending is easier because the re-partitioning step can be omitted (as Arvid wrote). On physical disks, I'd most probably not do it. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-19 13:49, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
My use case was data file systems like /home on virtual disks, i.e., VMs. I usually wouldn't make such a file system smaller, but extending is easier because the re-partitioning step can be omitted (as Arvid wrote). On physical disks, I'd most probably not do it.
I think it is just the custom, and that some software complains. Windows, perhaps. It also makes sense, on external flash media, not to create a partition. What for? It makes no sense to waste the space on the tables, the media is already small and never repartitioned. It is done with one partition because some software on Windows do not see it and complain. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRsm94ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V+wQCeOiuY5PeuVgyuUgOJ+YObqP9H spwAn1Pt2XwEJDN6ZaDfF9jc6pY1iKjt =Uy3v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On November 19, 2014 8:32:16 AM EST, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
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On 2014-11-19 13:49, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
My use case was data file systems like /home on virtual disks, i.e., VMs. I usually wouldn't make such a file system smaller, but extending is easier because the re-partitioning step can be omitted (as Arvid wrote). On physical disks, I'd most probably not do it.
I think it is just the custom, and that some software complains. Windows, perhaps.
It also makes sense, on external flash media, not to create a partition. What for? It makes no sense to waste the space on the tables, the media is already small and never repartitioned. It is done with one partition because some software on Windows do not see it and complain.
Most thumbs used with windows have partition tables, but not all. Windows does not require them for all situations. It may only allow FAT to be used if there is not a partition table, I don't know the rules. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 14:54, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@...> wrote:
On November 19, 2014 8:32:16 AM EST, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2014-11-19 13:49, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
My use case was data file systems like /home on virtual disks, i.e., VMs. I usually wouldn't make such a file system smaller, but extending is easier because the re-partitioning step can be omitted (as Arvid wrote). On physical disks, I'd most probably not do it.
I think it is just the custom, and that some software complains. Windows, perhaps.
It also makes sense, on external flash media, not to create a partition. What for? It makes no sense to waste the space on the tables, the media is already small and never repartitioned. It is done with one partition because some software on Windows do not see it and complain.
Most thumbs used with windows have partition tables, but not all.
Windows does not require them for all situations. It may only allow FAT to be used if there is not a partition table, I don't know the rules.
[Climbs upon his soapbox:] With Win95, Win98 and WinNT3.51, WinNT4.0(prior SP3) FAT32 was possible, since Windows NT 4.0 SP3 MS allowed FAT32 and NTFS on such Media. With the introduction of a USB -> SCSI disk emulator the so called USB-Sticks/-Drives became cheap and thus available to the masses around 1996 / 1997 As they (USB-Drives) where smaller than the limits of FAT32 (2GB at the time), MS allowed them to be handled similar to "Big Diskettes" / Superdisk with no partition table Later, at least for media with more than 2GB, a partition table was enforced, entry 0 is used in most cases. For NTFS, MS enforces a partition table, entry 0 is used by default. Historical: Superdisk LS-120 / LS-240 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDisk) no table, like a big 3.5" diskette Iomega's ZipDrive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_drive) used a Partition Table, part. 0-2 empty, part. 3 the full disk. SyQuest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syquest) also used a Partition Table, entry 0 was used. [Steps down from the soapbox] - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-19 15:31, Yamaban wrote:
[Climbs upon his soapbox:]
Later, at least for media with more than 2GB, a partition table was enforced, entry 0 is used in most cases.
I have to try a big stick without table one day, see what happens :-)
Iomega's ZipDrive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_drive) used a Partition Table, part. 0-2 empty, part. 3 the full disk.
I remember this. It caused some problems on Linux to some users. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRsrUMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VfMwCdHEfCb6V1b3hNZRXBxzgqTYTn 0rMAniTe2uG8icBn7lY6m7F5G6rpKk6+ =4pxc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/19/2014 09:41 AM, Johannes Kastl wrote:
On 14.11.2014 Bernhard Voelker wrote:
yeah, and while at it, it would be nice to use and format a complete disk like /dev/sdb for e.g. /home.
Just out of curiosity, what is the advantage of using the whole disk? Creation one partition and using that does not seem to be that much work.
Well, there's nothing wrong (or right, however you put it); it's just one level of indirection which I don't need in VMs. It can be compared to a CD where you usually also have the file system (usually is09660 and friends) directly on the whole block device rather than adding a partitioning table. Everybody would wonder about it if there was one (although there'd be nothing wrong about this). Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/19/2014 03:41 AM, Johannes Kastl wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what is the advantage of using the whole disk? Creation one partition and using that does not seem to be that much work.
That's certainly the case with today's large disks, but it wasn't always that way. A few years ago, I used one drive for the OS and one for /home. The drive containing /home was on a removable tray, so it could be removed and fully protected when installing a new system. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19.11.2014 James Knott wrote:
That's certainly the case with today's large disks, but it wasn't always that way. A few years ago, I used one drive for the OS and one for /home. The drive containing /home was on a removable tray, so it could be removed and fully protected when installing a new system.
And what good would using the whole disk (/dev/sdx) instead of the only partition on that disk (/dev/sdx1) do in this case? Regards, Johannes - -- The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they 've found it. (Terry Pratchett, Monstrous regiment) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with SeaMonkey - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlRsj3sACgkQzi3gQ/xETbJAVgCfW75tyMyY1iVfrAXtv6d5LoAs KXwAnRpKJaRG+WxhkNMpr1iSGPRe+LF8 =4sgf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/19/2014 07:39 AM, Johannes Kastl wrote:
On 19.11.2014 James Knott wrote:
That's certainly the case with today's large disks, but it wasn't always that way. A few years ago, I used one drive for the OS and one for /home. The drive containing /home was on a removable tray, so it could be removed and fully protected when installing a new system.
And what good would using the whole disk (/dev/sdx) instead of the only partition on that disk (/dev/sdx1) do in this case?
With the smaller drives back then, it wasn't hard to run out of space. That even happens with large drives. For example, I have a 700 GB drive in my notebook, with 500 GB for Windows. With the several large files I need for work, I'm bumping up against that 500 GB. However, as someone else mentioned, it's easier to repartition a drive if your data is protected elsewhere. For some strange reason, some people like to ensure their data is safe. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19.11.2014 James Knott wrote:
However, as someone else mentioned, it's easier to repartition a drive if your data is protected elsewhere. For some strange reason, some people like to ensure their data is safe.
I think we are getting off-topic. So just one last question: What difference does it make, if you remove the disk containing *no* partition from the system, compared to removing a disk with *one* partition? Regards, Johannes - -- Don't buy into bullshit. Don't admire false icons. We are just humans, not heroes. Think for yourself and stand up for what you believe is right. Don't be afraid to break stereotypes. Be true to yourself. Thank you. (The Used: In Love and Death) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with SeaMonkey - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlRsl4kACgkQzi3gQ/xETbJI1gCeL8oXJyhboeBUPHugmB4NHUFX rbIAnA+qo1/GQLz1DPuO5XuuCcXX9oz+ =II25 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 19.11.2014 13:39, Johannes Kastl wrote:
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On 19.11.2014 James Knott wrote:
That's certainly the case with today's large disks, but it wasn't always that way. A few years ago, I used one drive for the OS and one for /home. The drive containing /home was on a removable tray, so it could be removed and fully protected when installing a new system.
And what good would using the whole disk (/dev/sdx) instead of the only partition on that disk (/dev/sdx1) do in this case?
I've asked uncle Google and there might be a use-case: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_encryption - http://sgros.blogspot.cz/2013/01/partition-vs-whole-disk-and-creating.html HTH Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, Systems Management (Yast) Team Leader Cloud & Systems Management Department, SUSE Linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:09:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
One difference I noticed between 13.1 and 13.2 is where to find importing partitions. In 13.1 it's on the same list with other options. In 13.2, you have to select Expert, before you see the option to import. This makes it more difficult for a less experienced person to install on a fresh system. So, please move it back to where it was and belongs.
The button was removed since requested so by usability experts. See https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=868864 (unfortunately closed). Regards, Arvin -- Arvin Schnell, <aschnell@suse.de> Senior Software Engineer, Research & Development SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:05:56 +0100 Arvin Schnell <aschnell@suse.de> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:09:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
One difference I noticed between 13.1 and 13.2 is where to find importing partitions. In 13.1 it's on the same list with other options. In 13.2, you have to select Expert, before you see the option to import. This makes it more difficult for a less experienced person to install on a fresh system. So, please move it back to where it was and belongs.
The button was removed since requested so by usability experts.
See https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=868864 (unfortunately closed).
That bug/request is obviously believed to be highly sensitive and so mere users are barred from seeing it - well this one is anyway. -- Graham Davis [Retired Fortran programmer - now a mere computer user] openSUSE Tumbleweed (64-bit); KDE 4.14.2; AMD Phenom II X2 550 Processor; Kernel: 3.17.2; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (using nouveau driver); Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:05:56 +0100 Arvin Schnell <aschnell@suse.de> wrote: (the "Import partitioning" button)
The button was removed since requested so by usability experts.
I actually have some sympathy with that. A few months ago, someone on the forum was asking how to use it. This was a user wanting to install linux for the first time. I had to explain what it was for. So I think it can be confusing, except to experts. So the present location seems reasonable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Arvin Schnell -
Bernhard Voelker -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Graham P Davis -
Greg Freemyer -
James Knott -
Johannes Kastl -
Lukas Ocilka -
Neil Rickert -
Roger Luedecke -
Yamaban