[opensuse-factory] Mailinglist changes going forward
Hello everyone, Firstly I am cross posting this across a number of mailinglists because this post affects several, but I would ask that you keep your replies / feedback on the openSUSE project list as not to fragment discussion. It has been raised with the board by several members of the community that some of our mailinglists have not been working as effectively as we would like. As such and as raised in our annual discussion with the community during the conference, the board has decided to take a couple of steps that we hope will resolve these issues or that will at least be a starting point in resolving these issues. Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list, we as the board felt that in the transition from factory -> tumbleweed in particular the change in role for opensuse@o.o did not work well and in many cases there was an attitude that factory/tumbleweed issues should still be posted on the factory mailing list. As such we have created the support mailing list to help clarify these changes in policy that we don't believe worked when we tried to change them last time. In short we would like you to use opensuse-support@o.o whenever you require support whether it is for Tumbleweed, Leap (regardless of whether you are using a Leap beta or not) or any other project under the openSUSE umbrella. This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's). We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting but in case you accidentally report a duplicate bug its easy for us to mark it as such, also if you report something that is intentional and not a bug it doesn't take long to mark it as such, so if in doubt file a bug rather then posting to a mailing list, there is useful information for filing bugs at the following links [1][2]. But if you are really stuck with trying to file your bug the friendly people at opensuse-support@o.o can support you through the process. The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other then that think twice about where the more appropriate place to post is. The new tumbleweed snapshots will continue to be posted to factory but we would ask you do not reply to them in order to report issues / bugs. If a bug is reported that a package maintainer believes will cause significant issues for most tumbleweed users ie not being able to boot / login or severe data loss we still invite the maintainer to post a warning to opensuse-factory but such issues happen very rarely and as such we don't expect to see many such posts. The board has decided that it would like to see how well these changes work before deciding to add / remove / change openSUSE's mailing lists further. Although we have discussed several other possibilities that we could also try in the future. 1. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_reporting_FAQ 2. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Monday 2018-05-28 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:
The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other [...]
Rename it to opensuse-devel (carry over all present subscribers)? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 8:01 AM Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Monday 2018-05-28 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:
The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other [...]
Rename it to opensuse-devel (carry over all present subscribers)?
I think this is absolutely a solid idea. It makes it clear that this is a development list rather than a general list. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/05/18 22:35, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 8:01 AM Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Monday 2018-05-28 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:
The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other [...]
Rename it to opensuse-devel (carry over all present subscribers)?
I think this is absolutely a solid idea. It makes it clear that this is a development list rather than a general list.
This was also discussed in our meeting but again we decided against it for now anyway partly because in openSUSE since the dawn of time factory==devel. Again if enough people want this change as well we can look at it again in the future. * Yes mailing list threading is probably now broken from people replying on the wrong mailing list :-) -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Simon Lees composed on 2018-05-28 22:41 (UTC+0930):
Neal Gompa wrote:
Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Rename it to opensuse-devel (carry over all present subscribers)?
I think this is absolutely a solid idea. It makes it clear that this is a development list rather than a general list.
This was also discussed in our meeting but again we decided against it for now anyway partly because in openSUSE since the dawn of time factory==devel.
Yes, especially now that the -support list exists! -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/05/18 07:51 AM, Simon Lees wrote:
This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's).
I understand your concern. What you are complaining about is people too lazy or disinclined to use bugzilla to report valid bugs. However ...
We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting
Not just on bugzilla but ... I'm sure there are users less experienced than me who are unsure of themselves and unsure if what they see as something wrong is a bug or their own mistake. The mistake may be wrong assumptions about what is supposed to happen or it may be misconfiguration rather than a bug. My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up. And perhaps I'm not alone ... So before reporting to bugzilla I ask on the list "Is this my mistake?" To date, a better than 90% of the cases has been "MY mistake and guidance, often from people that I don't think would be opensuse-support@o.o. And yes, I've been referred to the kde- list and the btrfs- list and the xfs- list and the people there have always been helpful in telling me what I was doing wrong. MY opinion is that using bugzilla as a 'first resort' will result in a lot of <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated developers as well as lots of even more <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated users. Yes, opensuse-support@o.o will work, *IF* you publicise the hell out of it and keep telling people who subscribe, naturally enough, to the main and other lists. Perhaps you need a sign-up notice a monthly notice, such as the sort that Mailman can send, telling users about opensuse-support@o.o and the other lists, kde-, btrfs-, xfs- and so on, and to take specific problems there. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 29/05/18 00:20, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 28/05/18 07:51 AM, Simon Lees wrote:
This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's).
I understand your concern. What you are complaining about is people too lazy or disinclined to use bugzilla to report valid bugs.
However ...
We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting
Not just on bugzilla but ...
I'm sure there are users less experienced than me who are unsure of themselves and unsure if what they see as something wrong is a bug or their own mistake. The mistake may be wrong assumptions about what is supposed to happen or it may be misconfiguration rather than a bug.
My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.
And perhaps I'm not alone ...
So before reporting to bugzilla I ask on the list "Is this my mistake?"
To date, a better than 90% of the cases has been "MY mistake and guidance, often from people that I don't think would be opensuse-support@o.o. And yes, I've been referred to the kde- list and the btrfs- list and the xfs- list and the people there have always been helpful in telling me what I was doing wrong.
MY opinion is that using bugzilla as a 'first resort' will result in a lot of <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated developers as well as lots of even more <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated users.
Yes, opensuse-support@o.o will work, *IF* you publicise the hell out of it and keep telling people who subscribe, naturally enough, to the main and other lists. Perhaps you need a sign-up notice a monthly notice, such as the sort that Mailman can send, telling users about opensuse-support@o.o and the other lists, kde-, btrfs-, xfs- and so on, and to take specific problems there.
The biggest % of emails we see at the moment in the factory mailing list are along the lines of I did a zypper dup package XYZ broke, these are the sorts of things we would like to see bugs raised for. If you are setting up something for the first time or doing something different are are wondering if the issue is caused by your setup or a bug in the program then opensuse-support@ is the right place to ask your questions. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 28/05/18 11:13 AM, Simon Lees wrote:
If you are setting up something for the first time or doing something different are are wondering if the issue is caused by your setup or a bug in the program then opensuse-support@ is the right place to ask your questions.
Which gets back to the question Henne asked about 'the difference'. Among the questions I see are 'this installation method/setting worked for 42.x what won't it work when I try it with 15?' Yes, the "Grub Customizer broken in 15.0" James report s looks like a real bug in `15 and I don't think it should be in the main list. Oh, wait: 15 has been released now. So factory- is no longer the place. This is mainstream. Current. But support-? What is left for the main list? Are you saying it should be a social group? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.
For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEv7/MJoKYXv2p0PaIZJcsjNEnCIUFAlsMMJoACgkQZJcsjNEn CIWIrQf8CQWhnJ0G5mx4QEn/peiTbuM8ptYA2Wz1ODJAUbeQFH6QSp24507RxgT2 XpqMSvMqUlxObMcn5rtLUI0gQm6PHRvIYPvHYoQjxZoxVEPlV1x7E8si2f7M8Hur qXZ5vt8YhYlmZQJwmcd/gQaq2iMdwpy+ghBIZG1OQ4zu4lgrklj14bJ587BebWmH EkHt/p6ysr+hBcgI8OjsCZIrAaHZbfIzufVinfWcfm4fM1hbqroof56+VTKPrbd+ g3CXKkSbgboOR3HNXUsDdHSlwKf0vIjwDCYLhwGngik6LpIruUXKSQSdIMR4GLkl Ti8BZp+NeV+x9I0hpYSRnWlbDgaKQQ== =1Eb/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 28 May 2018 11:39:01 -0500, Neil Rickert <nrickert@ameritech.net> wrote:
On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.
For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate.
However I understand the wish from your point of view, I fully feel with Anton. I find that IRC fills the niche between the two but it is not the medium of choice for many -- H.Merijn Brand http://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.27 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and openSUSE http://mirrors.develooper.com/hpux/ http://www.test-smoke.org/ http://qa.perl.org http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/
On 28/05/18 01:50 PM, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Mon, 28 May 2018 11:39:01 -0500, Neil Rickert <nrickert@ameritech.net> wrote:
On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.
For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate.
However I understand the wish from your point of view, I fully feel with Anton. I find that IRC fills the niche between the two but it is not the medium of choice for many
I fend the RSS feel very very frustrating. The list here and the other lists I can use threading, but trying to follow a tread via RSS among many others is frustrating. I'm putting together a reply as to why this list is more importunate to openSUSE and that simply converting it to a -- possibly moderated - support- will be damaging. -- Your skid stops here. (Seen on back of lorry) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/28/2018 09:39 AM, Neil Rickert wrote:
On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.
For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate.
Exactly. It is a great Forum, with great Volunteer Support, and is Moderated so that the garbage that floods these mail lists tends to be almost totally absent. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-05-29 23:30, Fraser_Bell wrote:
On 05/28/2018 09:39 AM, Neil Rickert wrote:
On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.
For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate.
Exactly. It is a great Forum, with great Volunteer Support, and is Moderated so that the garbage that floods these mail lists tends to be almost totally absent.
Then, it is Ok to post to the web forum asking if something is a bug or an error, but it is not ok to ask the same thing in the mail list? You mean that there is no Wonderful Volunteer Support on the mail list? :-O -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 2018-05-28 16:50, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 28/05/18 07:51 AM, Simon Lees wrote:
This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's).
I understand your concern. What you are complaining about is people too lazy or disinclined to use bugzilla to report valid bugs.
I know (and you know, Anton) of some people that bluntly refuse to use bugzilla, and nothing will change their thinking ;-)
However ...
We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting
Not just on bugzilla but ...
I'm sure there are users less experienced than me who are unsure of themselves and unsure if what they see as something wrong is a bug or their own mistake. The mistake may be wrong assumptions about what is supposed to happen or it may be misconfiguration rather than a bug.
My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.
And perhaps I'm not alone ...
So before reporting to bugzilla I ask on the list "Is this my mistake?"
I do that. :-) I hate to report a bugzilla and then find out that it was my fault, and that I wasted a contributor time. I really hate that.
To date, a better than 90% of the cases has been "MY mistake and guidance, often from people that I don't think would be opensuse-support@o.o. And yes, I've been referred to the kde- list and the btrfs- list and the xfs- list and the people there have always been helpful in telling me what I was doing wrong.
MY opinion is that using bugzilla as a 'first resort' will result in a lot of <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated developers as well as lots of even more <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated users.
I agree.
Yes, opensuse-support@o.o will work, *IF* you publicise the hell out of it and keep telling people who subscribe, naturally enough, to the main and other lists. Perhaps you need a sign-up notice a monthly notice, such as the sort that Mailman can send, telling users about opensuse-support@o.o and the other lists, kde-, btrfs-, xfs- and so on, and to take specific problems there.
Perhaps. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 28/05/18 04:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I know (and you know, Anton) of some people that bluntly refuse to use bugzilla, and nothing will change their thinking ;-)
Indeed, just as some people bluntly refuse to use, say, KDE4 (rather than KDE3) and and nothing will change their thinking I freely admit that I bluntly refuse to use Gnome3 and nothing will change my thinking. I also bluntly refuse to smoke (anything), and a number of other thing sand, guess what? Nothing will change my thinking on those matters. But WTH, some people refuse to use Linux, Mac OSX, ... the list goes on. So we have to drop them from the list? -- Wherever you see a successful business, someone once made a courageous decision. --Peter F. Drucker -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
понеділок, 28 травня 2018 р. 14:51:42 EEST Simon Lees написано:
This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's).
Hi, Slightly related question, what is the best place for minor bug like ask to trigger rebuild of some package (e.g. mysql-workbench) which is currently broken due to dependency update (gdal). Fill bugzilla.opensuse.org bug? Use some `osc` command (or build.opensuse.org UI)? I've used osc for code changing requests, but I'm not aware how to just ask for rebuild without any actual changes. -- Kind regards, Mykola Krachkovsky -- Найкращі побажання, Микола Крачковський
Hey, On 01.06.2018 15:36, Mykola Krachkovsky wrote:
Slightly related question, what is the best place for minor bug like ask to trigger rebuild of some package (e.g. mysql-workbench) which is currently broken due to dependency update (gdal).
Contact the maintainer of the package. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Simon Lees writes:
Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list, we as the board felt that in the transition from factory -> tumbleweed in particular the change in role for opensuse@o.o did not work well and in many cases there was an attitude that factory/tumbleweed issues should still be posted on the factory mailing list.
The unfortunate thing is that this new list is of course not carried on the news.gmane.org NNTP server and the web interface to add it is still non-working after Lars' "The End of Gmane" announcement. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Jun 10 2018, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
The unfortunate thing is that this new list is of course not carried on the news.gmane.org NNTP server
Write to admin@gmane.org to ask them to add it. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Andreas Schwab writes:
On Jun 10 2018, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
The unfortunate thing is that this new list is of course not carried on the news.gmane.org NNTP server
Write to admin@gmane.org to ask them to add it.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've done that and the list is now readable via NNTP. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Samples for the Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldSamplesExtra -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (13)
-
Achim Gratz -
Andreas Schwab -
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Fraser_Bell -
H.Merijn Brand -
Henne Vogelsang -
Jan Engelhardt -
Mykola Krachkovsky -
Neal Gompa -
Neil Rickert -
Simon Lees