[opensuse-factory] Bugzilla out for maintenance, when?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Bugzilla shows this message: ] Bugzilla will be offline Saturday January 10 from 10:00 AM until 2:00 PM ] Mountain Time for upgrades and maintenance. Care to specify what is "mountain time"? AFAIK, the time in the montains nearby is the same as in the valley :-P Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkllGb8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X3+ACdGGZzlwqV/CkUVDad3sLTl1/Y ZCgAmwW41TBztHRUJ8vA9OiKIKCn9c05 =rVd1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 22:08 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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Hi,
Bugzilla shows this message:
] Bugzilla will be offline Saturday January 10 from 10:00 AM until 2:00 PM ] Mountain Time for upgrades and maintenance.
Care to specify what is "mountain time"? AFAIK, the time in the montains nearby is the same as in the valley :-P
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal.
Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6
- -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal.
Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkllN0sACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VWmgCeJ+MOh0vWXSMMpIK9lG4jNfHj Pj0An2fZRJauJvnHd0waOGYORrWQ9MDo =E5fM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 00:14 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal.
Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
I tried google to find those rules but without success. Can you point me to the right URL? Thanks, Magnus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, Magnus Boman wrote:
On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 00:14 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal.
Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
I tried google to find those rules but without success. Can you point me to the right URL?
Can't you ask someone which owns a human brain? That should be enough. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) -- Eberhard Mönkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoenke@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gesellschaft für wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Göttingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Göttingen URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: gwdg@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Neumair Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Dipl.-Kfm. Markus Hoppe Sitz der Gesellschaft: Göttingen Registergericht: Göttingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 00:20 +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, Magnus Boman wrote:
On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 00:14 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal.
Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
I tried google to find those rules but without success. Can you point me to the right URL?
Can't you ask someone which owns a human brain? That should be enough.
Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
-----------------------------------------
There are also those who say we shouldn't be using UTC, but rather GMT, as UTC causes much confusion with daylight savings time. -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 17:29 -0600, Bryen wrote:
There are also those who say we shouldn't be using UTC, but rather GMT, as UTC causes much confusion with daylight savings time.
Are you serious? For practical purposes, UTC is just another name for GMT, and neither has "daylight savings time". For technical details, you can read the wikipedia. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkllScoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WacACcCkhymyXP1mL/IyCyxQIyw4F3 lvUAoIfmjt3ayKG5i2SsfJOw7jdXCwiU =5XhF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 2009/01/08 00:14 (GMT+0100) Carlos E. R. composed:
On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal.
Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
As Novell HQ lives in MST, experienced SUSE users should remember that some Novell employees inevitably will ignore or forget that they should use UTC, and assume correctly when UTC is not what is announced. -- "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it." Proverbs 22:6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Felix Miata wrote:
As Novell HQ lives in MST, experienced SUSE users should remember that some Novell employees inevitably will ignore or forget that they should use UTC, and assume correctly when UTC is not what is announced.
Some trivia: 1. The majority of Novell employees do not live in MST. 2. Novell HQ is EST, not MST. 3. The main Novell data center is in MST, though. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 08 January 2009 00:14:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal.
Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
Feel free to report it in bugzilla ;) Thanks for the info, I'll change my announcement now before it goes out ;) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Andreas Jaeger schrieb:
On Thursday 08 January 2009 00:14:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal. Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6 The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
Feel free to report it in bugzilla ;)
Thanks for the info, I'll change my announcement now before it goes out ;)
I agree with the UTC statement (while it might not be written law ;-)). But having MST forces (almost) everyone to do two calculations: one to UTC and one to his local timezone. If it would be given in UTC only the author would have to do the first calculation so it perfectly makes sense to use UTC IMHO. Given that everyone should know his relative difference to UTC offhand while I don't know MST to UTC without some investigation. Just my 2 ct, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
I agree with the UTC statement (while it might not be written law ;-)). But having MST forces (almost) everyone to do two calculations: one to UTC and one to his local timezone. If it would be given in UTC only the author would have to do the first calculation so it perfectly makes sense to use UTC IMHO. Given that everyone should know his relative difference to UTC offhand while I don't know MST to UTC without some investigation.
Just my 2 ct, Wolfgang
It's a real shame that developers have years of programming code that almost no one uses. From the command line.. $ date --date="10:00am MST" will tell you *in your local timezone* what time the server will be offline; and.. $ date --date="2:00pm MST" will tell you what time the sever will be back online. Need that will cake, coffee or tea? The date command also understands strings like "2009-01-10 10:00:00MST" and "2009-01-10 10:00:00-0700". It really is a useful command, is include in just about every variety of *nix since the dawn of time. Great for creating general mayhem, or even just seeing what time something is happening somewhere else. Just my $.02 Sorry, normally I just keep quite about things like this .. It's easier but today you've caught me in rare form. :) Ron Kivel -It's a good thing we don't get all the government we pay for. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Thursday 08 January 2009 11:13:04 schrieb Ronald Marshall Kivel III:
I agree with the UTC statement (while it might not be written law ;-)). But having MST forces (almost) everyone to do two calculations: one to UTC and one to his local timezone. If it would be given in UTC only the author would have to do the first calculation so it perfectly makes sense to use UTC IMHO. Given that everyone should know his relative difference to UTC offhand while I don't know MST to UTC without some investigation.
Just my 2 ct, Wolfgang
It's a real shame that developers have years of programming code that almost no one uses.
From the command line.. $ date --date="10:00am MST" will tell you *in your local timezone* what time the server will be offline; and.. $ date --date="2:00pm MST" will tell you what time the sever will be back
Then we just have to guess that "mountain time" goes by the acronym MST and all will be well. If I know that, I also know the offset. Regards Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/1/8 Ronald Marshall Kivel III <ron@ekivel.com>:
I agree with the UTC statement (while it might not be written law ;-)). But having MST forces (almost) everyone to do two calculations: one to UTC and one to his local timezone.
From the command line.. $ date --date="10:00am MST" will tell you *in your local timezone* what time the server will be offline; and.. $ date --date="2:00pm MST"
That's great, but it really does just show that someone writing a service interruption notice, shouldn't have much trouble posting a time in UTC/GMT/Zulu to help an international audience. Probably most ppl, face conversions for Pacific or East Coast time, much more frequently so that would be a friendlier parochial option. Why make a whole load of ppl, type a command, rather than someone who's aim is to inform the reader? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-01-08 at 02:13 -0800, Ronald Marshall Kivel III wrote:
From the command line.. $ date --date="10:00am MST" will tell you *in your local timezone* what time the server will be offline; and..
Two "buts". · One, you have to know what timezone "mountain time" is. I don't. Well, now I have been told. · Two, I can do the conversion from my local time to UTC and back in my head. · And three, UTC was created precisely as a time reference for the entire world, for the cases when you have to tell the time, without confussion, to people outside your own time zone. Even the acronym has a strange ordering that is neither English nor French, so that nobody can claim the acronym was made for their language. Ie, the polite form is not to use local time. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkll9FoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UkQACffDF1gm8LGMSSDBU1fbUKE0mY mGwAoIgzRBwfiWBPLGizEtFL5pKqRqGQ =NA27 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 1/8/2009 at 1:40 PM, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Thursday, 2009-01-08 at 02:13 -0800, Ronald Marshall Kivel III wrote:
From the command line.. $ date --date="10:00am MST" will tell you *in your local timezone* what time the server will be offline; and..
Two "buts".
· One, you have to know what timezone "mountain time" is. I don't. Well, now I have been told. · Two, I can do the conversion from my local time to UTC and back in my head. · And three, UTC was created precisely as a time reference for the entire world, for the cases when you have to tell the time, without confussion, to people outside your own time zone. Even the acronym has a strange ordering that is neither English nor French, so that nobody can claim the acronym was made for their language.
It's always interesting how long such a thread can grow in this list, even though there is basically nothing more to say. We could also use Internet Time (BMT). After all that one was created for not being affected by timezones and/or DST. So in short: I vote for BMT Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/1/8 Dominique Leuenberger <Dominique.Leuenberger@tmf-group.com>:
It's always interesting how long such a thread can grow in this list, even though there is basically nothing more to say. We could also use Internet Time (BMT). After all that one was created for not being affected by timezones and/or DST.
So in short: I vote for BMT
And you've skilfully fertilised the thread! LOL You serious is BMT this one using a 'decimal time'? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biel_Mean_Time With only 1000 beats in a day, ppl will want a TBMT (Thrash), more attuned with these days of 5 second booting, and instant on lifestyle! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/1/8 Dominique Leuenberger <Dominique.Leuenberger@tmf-group.com>:
It's always interesting how long such a thread can grow in this list, even though there is basically nothing more to say. We could also use Internet Time (BMT). After all that one was created for not being affected by timezones and/or DST.
So in short: I vote for BMT
And you've skilfully fertilised the thread! LOL You serious is BMT this one using a 'decimal time'? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biel_Mean_Time With only 1000 beats in a day, ppl will want a TBMT (Thrash), more attuned with these days of 5 second booting, and instant on lifestyle! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 1/8/2009 at 2:22 PM, "Rob OpenSuSE" <rob.opensuse.linux@googlemail.com> wrote: 2009/1/8 Dominique Leuenberger <Dominique.Leuenberger@tmf-group.com>:
It's always interesting how long such a thread can grow in this list, even though there is basically nothing more to say. We could also use Internet Time (BMT). After all that one was created for not being affected by timezones and/or DST.
So in short: I vote for BMT
And you've skilfully fertilised the thread! LOL
If already making it longer, then at least with new input, no? :)
You serious is BMT this one using a 'decimal time'? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biel_Mean_Time
Yep. A day has 1000 .beats.
With only 1000 beats in a day, ppl will want a TBMT (Thrash), more attuned with these days of 5 second booting, and instant on lifestyle!
As long as your computer boots in less than 0.5.beats I'd say you should be happy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-01-08 at 13:22 -0000, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
2009/1/8 Dominique Leuenberger <>:
It's always interesting how long such a thread can grow in this list, even though there is basically nothing more to say. We could also use Internet Time (BMT). After all that one was created for not being affected by timezones and/or DST.
So in short: I vote for BMT
Huh?
And you've skilfully fertilised the thread! LOL You serious is BMT this one using a 'decimal time'? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biel_Mean_Time
With only 1000 beats in a day, ppl will want a TBMT (Thrash), more attuned with these days of 5 second booting, and instant on lifestyle!
Decimal time!? It is interesting as a curiosity, but not practical. None of my clocks or watches support it. That link has a sample time: ] Example: @206 ] This was the Swatch Internet Time time when this page was last ] generated. So I try to convert it: cer@nimrodel:~> TZ=UTC date --date="@206" Thu Jan 1 00:03:26 UTC 1970 cer@nimrodel:~> TZ=UTC date --date="@206 BMT" date: invalid date `@206 BMT' Is that it? I can't believe that page was created in 1970, so I have to assume that the command "date" does not support BMT. That being so, we can't use BMT. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAklmB0gACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VzGQCggUu/cwY31iI2rbZ2oUx9QL7v oYgAn3k8o47yfm+cDJY67NLGsa8TCmwE =Neo/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 08 January 2009 00:14:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:17 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Seriously, though: please specify time in UTC, it is universal. Mountain Time is MST, an actual time zone. It is GMT -7/-6 The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
Feel free to report it in bugzilla ;)
Thanks for the info, I'll change my announcement now before it goes out ;)
I wouldn't say it's a MUST to use UTC, the Mozilla project uses Pacific Time for everything, for example, partly for historical reasons (Netscape was based in California), partly because the largest Mozilla offices are still in that timezone, even though it's global project. We saw though that it helps a lot to specify both such a conventional timezone and UTC, and perhaps even some time conversion URL for the beginning of the timeframe, e.g. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=8&month=1&year=2009&hour=12&min=25&sec=0&p1=0 (for right now when I'm writing this). Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-01-08 at 08:26 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
Feel free to report it in bugzilla ;)
I hate writing bugzillas for trivial, obvious things... anyway, done. Bug 464433.
Thanks for the info, I'll change my announcement now before it goes out ;)
Thanks. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkll9YAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Xq8wCfSuVUu9IHjLAgT3vUwIHvV3XX HUQAnR6usw0jmiGEhQXeyN9AvoDYIpD+ =e8OM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri 09 Jan 2009 01:45:51 NZDT +1300, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
Feel free to report it in bugzilla ;)
I hate writing bugzillas for trivial, obvious things... anyway, done. Bug 464433.
You are not authorized to access bug #464433. ?!??? Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
On Fri 09 Jan 2009 01:45:51 NZDT +1300, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
Feel free to report it in bugzilla ;)
I hate writing bugzillas for trivial, obvious things... anyway, done. Bug 464433.
You are not authorized to access bug #464433.
?!??? The bug is reported against Bugzilla and those bugs are afaik closed for the public. Just the reporter can see them.
FYI - the bug is marked fixed and closed. Best M
Volker
-- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 23:00 +1300, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
On Fri 09 Jan 2009 01:45:51 NZDT +1300, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The point still stands: time on an international community MUST be given as UTC, not local.
Feel free to report it in bugzilla ;)
I hate writing bugzillas for trivial, obvious things... anyway, done. Bug 464433.
You are not authorized to access bug #464433.
?!???
Bugzilla bugs seems to be assigned to Novell Internal IS&T. You should file a a bug against that :-) Content of the bug: ================================================ Summary: Please use UTC, Universal Time Coordinated, for your announcements. ________________________________________________________________________ Description The announcement above: «Bugzilla will be offline Saturday January 10 from 10:00 AM until 2:00 PM Mountain Time for upgrades and maintenance.» is using a local time, which is improper and bad form for an international community. ------- Comment #1 MST (-) [reply] ------- Private Done ------- Comment #2 [reply] ------- Private Thanks! ===================================================== Nothing secret about it but as I said, it's auto-assigned to internal. Cheers, Magnus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (16)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Bryen -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Dominique Leuenberger -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
Felix Miata -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Magnus Boman -
Michael Loeffler -
Oliver Neukum -
Rob OpenSuSE -
Robert Kaiser -
Ronald Marshall Kivel III -
Volker Kuhlmann -
Wolfgang Rosenauer