On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 23/05/12 21:43, Marguerite Su wrote:

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On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Ma Xiaojun wrote:

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Hi, all.

Thank you for your efforts to provide better CJK input experience openSUSE. But I have questions about the procedure.

Firstly, the user survey is biased. It explicitly reflects the survey maker's personal opinion about IMs/IMFs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dDdoMmU2emxaMXNxc0VfNTA... (It is available in both Chinese and English.)

Let me point out ibus supporters' data regarding which IMF is more popular. http://www.ohloh.net/p/fcitx http://www.ohloh.net/p/ibus http://www.ohloh.net/p/scim It's 237(ibus) VS 11(fcitx) VS 14(SCIM) when I write this mail. ( I don't think this is very fair since fcitx's homepage forgot to put a "I USE IT" button until recently. And I haven't found such button in SCIM's homepage.)

Secondly, focusing on maintainers' status rather than concrete technical problems. Both SCIM and ibus released new version recently. http://www.scim-im.org/ http://code.google.com/p/ibus/ In my humble opinion, they are not dead in any sense. I don't know why someone is talking about gossips of maintainers in this kind of formal place. On the other hand, some FOSS projects receive no maintenance for years. But they are still the work-horse in our systems.

I just reviewed many ibus issues on Google Code and found many features missing in ibus. http://code.google.com/p/ibus/issues/list And I noted that fcitx is going to have unparalleled features soon. https://www.csslayer.info/wordpress/ So I can understand why people is pushing fcitx as default for at least zh_CN. But I object any dropping if keeping SCIM and/or ibus do not cause extra problems on openSUSE side. Since both projects are still active, there must be people want to use them.

Best Regards, Ma Xiaojun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

It's one of openSUSE lists.

we don't care about your data and words since Ubuntu/Mac users are not our targets.

so please do not bring your GNOME stupidity and trolling to our list.

or consider yourself be banned.

Ce?

Forgot to take your meds today?

BC

this one's a troll found on other projects' lists and my personal blog. I don't want to bring fight here. that's why I said that instead of replying one by one. marguerite

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On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Ma Xiaojun wrote:

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Marguerite Su wrote:

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this one's a troll found on other projects' lists and my personal blog. Sorry for being off topic in this post.

But I do believe that the way Marguerite Su, an openSUSE member, doing things currently is not good for openSUSE and/or FOSS, in general.

I replied the last two messages because I don't want to bring any personal affairs into my factory mailing list. it's for openSUSE's good. that's what an openSUSE Member should do. to stop the fire before it really burns.

Because she goes personal easily rather than stick to the real problem itself.

Let's check what she wrote on GNOME's mailing list https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2012-May/msg00187.html

My explanation is just in the previous one. He received and avoided it. a. IBus is at first an Input Method Framework across all platform, then something to be integrated into Gnome. That's why it can't be and will never be GBus. because IBus has to support every platform. b. He said "every IMF die one day or another, Gnome lives long". That self-explains why any IMF itself can't be a standard. And he still can ask: why not GBus? I think GFcitx is good. There're many such cases in DDL. Why he is a troll: 1. He is always asking questions without any proof but simply in an opposite way in a technical discussion. 2. Statistical data in DDL ML shows he will certainly reply every email I sent by simply asking questions in the opposite way but didn't provide any proof. Even not to him directly. He's willing me to quarrel with him to make myself a troll or rule breaker. 3. He flooded on every post in my personal blog. Even dairies and non IMF/openSUSE/FOSS topics. 4. Evidences in DDL shows he knew nothing about IMF but trying to make point on IMF topics. That's great misleading to all parts. 5. He's following me from list to list.

I'd say I selected her worst post. She did posted some insightful posts where I learned some new things.

Let's also check what she wrote on her personal blog. It's only in Chinese, though. http://www.marguerite.su/2012/05/15/cjk-%E7%9A%84%E5%B0%8A%E5%9A%B4%EF%BC%88... Decent FUD about ibus project and other FOSS projects. I do learn some ibus shortages from this, though.

http://www.marguerite.su/2012/05/16/cjk-%E7%9A%84%E5%B0%8A%E5%9A%B4%EF%BC%88... Decent personal attack.

If you really want to prove I was personally attacking you. I suggest you translate them all. I had enough of your pretending innocence. Actually that's all evidences showing why you're a troll. I think it's enough to clear my name. Marguerite

Best Regards, Ma Xiaojun

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I'd like to point out a theoretical advantage of ibus here. Please correct me! ibus's IM engines are run in separate process. This is irrelevant to users if engines and the framework are maintained by same group of people. However, if we are going to add Win32 IM support to wine one day. Then multi-process architecture can make things much easier. Best Regards, Ma Xiaojun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

在 2012年5月24日 星期四 01:29:47，Ma Xiaojun 写道：

There is already a bug report in wine project. http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8093

Anyway, given the current state of IM in *nix world. The bug has little chance of being fixed.

:(

I have a friend want to do this in this years GSoC, but he said it's refused by wine upstream. By the way I also don't think it's a useful, and will never become mainstream (license, close source, etc). The only make sense one is to use wine'd IME only in wine'd application, use it under Linux app doesn't make much sense and will bring up more problem.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Weng Xuetian wrote:

在 2012年5月24日 星期四 01:29:47，Ma Xiaojun 写道：

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There is already a bug report in wine project. http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8093

Anyway, given the current state of IM in *nix world. The bug has little chance of being fixed.

:(

I have a friend want to do this in this years GSoC, but he said it's refused by wine upstream.

By the way I also don't think it's a useful, and will never become mainstream (license, close source, etc).

The only make sense one is to use wine'd IME only in wine'd application, use it under Linux app doesn't make much sense and will bring up more problem.

Hi, Weng, Any way I want to reclaim the title "Proposal to replace default scim/ibus input methods in ISOs with alternatives." We had a temporary conclusion before. and you know what it is. Mr Ma was voluntarily talking about "the future". we openSUSE M17N team want to find a solution right here right now, instead of holding and hoping for the future. and we don't compare IMFs. it's not our job. every technology has its users. we just don't maintain the old/dead ones. As I know, you're improving CJK with Peng Huang (IBus co-founder). IBus has its 1.5 branch. As we discussed before, it's worth trying. so Mr. Ma was actually posting without reading the whole thread, so doesn't make any point here. because we don't drop IBus support from openSUSE. even SCIM. And Mr. Ma's idea will not be taken into consideration because there's no reasonable proof close to our thread topic. and because through my connection with M17N maintainers of other distributions: Mr. Ma's everywhere to trigger flame war. in communities he's not in. due to his bad name in history and Chinese Community, we'll not take what he said into consideration. so don't worry. We encourage cross-distribution communication, but it doesn't mean we take other distributions' situation into our own implementation, unless it's low-level and has a natural shield from end users or security. so if anyone want to convince us, use openSUSE examples instead of wine...something unrelated. we're a FOSS community. pre-ship a commercial input method will never be the case. wine is not our choice. no matter how well it's done, we will not wine any IMF officially. so please stop off-topic and keep on working. we respect Mr. Ma's willing to give a help hand, but please contact me with OBS submit requests. let's code talk. Marguerite. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Ma Xiaojun wrote:

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Marguerite Su wrote:

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Mr Ma was voluntarily talking about "the future". we openSUSE M17N team want to find a solution right here right now, instead of holding and hoping for the future. and we don't compare IMFs. it's not our job. every technology has its users. we just don't maintain the old/dead ones. I'd say I've seen discussion about Japanese support of fcitx. And you somehow tried to push fcitx as default IMF of Japanese locale. It's also kind of future stuff. It's natural to thinking about future. :)

That's called briefing. not imagination like you did.

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As I know, you're improving CJK with Peng Huang (IBus co-founder). IBus has its 1.5 branch. As we discussed before, it's worth trying. so Mr. Ma was actually posting without reading the whole thread, so doesn't make any point here. because we don't drop IBus support from openSUSE. even SCIM. I guess I do read the whole thread. And I don't object your conclusion.

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And Mr. Ma's idea will not be taken into consideration because there's no reasonable proof close to our thread topic. and because through my connection with M17N maintainers of other distributions: I still doubt the baised survey and the trend of focusing on maintainance status rather than concrete feature differences. I showed my concern clearly in my very first post.

The survey is well tested and serves as basis for discussion here. And it's shared between IM developers and maintainers. They took it as a trend study. (including IBus co-founder) So you have to well prove "baised". Take time to find solid evidences for openSUSE. Your very beginning post shows no related data with openSUSE. Let me claim it again: use openSUSE example. Of course we openSUSE M17N team take maintenance as the first priority. That's common policy.

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Mr. Ma's everywhere to trigger flame war. in communities he's not in. due to his bad name in history and Chinese Community,  we'll not take what he said into consideration. so don't worry. OK. You goes personal again. :( Who once started a flame war here? XD Please answer my questions in my very first post.

Let me claim it again: use openSUSE example. and SR talks. You're really good at avoiding important things and asking same questions. You very first post is off-topic from this thread.

Ma Xiaojun

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On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Ma Xiaojun wrote:

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So you have to well prove "baised". Take time to find solid evidences for openSUSE. It is obvious that you try to "educate" users in this survey. You explicilty said which IMF is most popular in different regions in

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Marguerite Su wrote: the introduction.

You said it's "introduction".

If you know such fact beforehand, why bother doing the survey anyway?

"And I think this case is common." "so I made this online survey to see if everyone is like me." Read it again carefully. I'm not your grammar teacher. Please stop flooding this thread. Hi, coolo, Please offer some help here. This one is keeping off-topic in our factory list. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:54 PM, Ma Xiaojun wrote:

I'd say it is really hard to discuss any problems in a list have messages like the following. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-05/msg00478.html

As long as I made my points clear, I just need to wait for others' response.

Clever boy. (then why you flooded so many?

Thank you all.

You're welcome. Oh by the way: Welcome to openSUSE world. And use openSUSE example. Hope it helps. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Weng Xuetian wrote:

If you want to discussion on this point, I will never agree on this, technically. This is one of the most important reason that fcitx can work like this while ibus not. Gcin filter is kinds of similar idea but fcitx push it to a higher level. You cannot imagine things like this in ibus (or any other IMF): table simply use pinyin's code to process temporarily pinyin mode. I guess I noted gcin's filtering feature in hime's github :) Are you talking about stuff related to the following https://github.com/caleb-/hime/tree/master/filter Yeah, ibus does lack such feature currently.

And if you know mozc, you will know it have a mozc server itself. So there is no limitation for an input method engine to use a separate process if it want to, while ibus only force this. If the engine author want, he can just do it in any other IMF. I'd say this reminds me of the way Win32 IME works. Simple Win32 IMEs are just dynamically loadable modules. While sophisticated ones have servers and use some sort of IPC. Please correct me.

Multiprocess and single process is not a good question for IMF is good or not, though it's irrevanlant, do you know the similar quarrel about postgresql and mysql architecture (single process and multiple process)? I admit mulitple process have some advantage, but force engine to be multiple process will bring too much unneeded limitation (at least for me). I once planned to add an easy interface for multi-process in fcitx, though the plan postponed since I don't think it's important for now. I'd say I agree that it is not that relevant now.

P.S. Some irrelavant complain, you and Su take about some technical point (no matter on ibus or fcitx) while don't know WHY developer choose it, you guys may just do "ah I see it", and talk about it. Yeah, I know I'm still a dummy in IM/IMF world. Thank you for your previous correction. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org