[opensuse-factory] No kernel 5.9 in Kernel:stable and Tumbleweed
Hi, this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾. To cite, Nvidia promises to provide something "early". They will allegedly provide some announcement somewhere too (I don't know the details, don't ask me). Seife might (or might not) know more. If that doesn't happen until 5.9.1²⁾, I won't wait any longer and will proceed with pushing 5.9.1 to K:s and TW. They had enough time to fix their issue. More precisely since 5.9-rc1 which was released on Aug 16 13:04:57 2020 -0700. That is almost _two_ months! In fact, they must have been aware of the problem given they have been using this so-called GPL condom for ages. While I understand there might be CUDA users in TW, I see a little reason why one company would stop rolling our rolling distro. Users relying on uvm module should simply stay ("zypper al" is your friend) with 5.8 until the mess is resolved. If they don't announce anything, we will, so you can keep up. ¹⁾ https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/262e6ae708 ²⁾ There is no 5.9 queue in stable-queue git yet. It will take few more days or a week. thanks, -- js suse labs
On 10/14/20 1:08 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi,
this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.
To cite, Nvidia promises to provide something "early". They will allegedly provide some announcement somewhere too (I don't know the details, don't ask me). Seife might (or might not) know more.
If that doesn't happen until 5.9.1²⁾, I won't wait any longer and will proceed with pushing 5.9.1 to K:s and TW. They had enough time to fix their issue. More precisely since 5.9-rc1 which was released on Aug 16 13:04:57 2020 -0700. That is almost _two_ months! In fact, they must have been aware of the problem given they have been using this so-called GPL condom for ages.
While I understand there might be CUDA users in TW, I see a little reason why one company would stop rolling our rolling distro. Users relying on uvm module should simply stay ("zypper al" is your friend) with 5.8 until the mess is resolved. If they don't announce anything, we will, so you can keep up.
¹⁾ https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/262e6ae708 ²⁾ There is no 5.9 queue in stable-queue git yet. It will take few more days or a week.
Jiri, I heartily endorse your position, even though the kernel developer's push to limit the behavior of external modules has impacted me as the VirtualBox developer, particularly with kernel 5.8. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:08:25AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi,
this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.
To cite, Nvidia promises to provide something "early". They will allegedly provide some announcement somewhere too (I don't know the details, don't ask me). Seife might (or might not) know more.
If that doesn't happen until 5.9.1²⁾, I won't wait any longer and will proceed with pushing 5.9.1 to K:s and TW. They had enough time to fix their issue. More precisely since 5.9-rc1 which was released on Aug 16 13:04:57 2020 -0700. That is almost _two_ months! In fact, they must have been aware of the problem given they have been using this so-called GPL condom for ages.
While I understand there might be CUDA users in TW, I see a little reason why one company would stop rolling our rolling distro. Users relying on uvm module should simply stay ("zypper al" is your friend) with 5.8 until the mess is resolved. If they don't announce anything, we will, so you can keep up.
For the record, if someone is eager to give 5.9 kernel a try, they can use the package from Kernel:HEAD OBS project. Unless they are on a 32-bit ARM architecture, that is, there is a build failure I'll need to look into (the usual 64-bit division issue, it seems). Michal Kubecek
¹⁾ https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/262e6ae708 ²⁾ There is no 5.9 queue in stable-queue git yet. It will take few more days or a week.
thanks, -- js suse labs
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Am Donnerstag, 15. Oktober 2020, 09:21:10 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:08:25AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi,
this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.
For the record, if someone is eager to give 5.9 kernel a try, they can use the package from Kernel:HEAD OBS project.
And for just another record: The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD. As mentioned before, Stefan disabled uvm a month ago for TW. BTW, it's drbd, that is messed up again for 5.9, even with compatibility patches applied: home:frispete:kernel/drbd. Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
[lame self follow-up, sorry..] Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:42:20 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:
Am Donnerstag, 15. Oktober 2020, 09:21:10 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:08:25AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi,
this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.
For the record, if someone is eager to give 5.9 kernel a try, they can use the package from Kernel:HEAD OBS project.
And for just another record:
The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD.
and with the attached patch applied and conditioned correctly, it even builds/ runs fine *including* nvidia-uvm.ko, recovering from the lost CUDA issue.
BTW, it's drbd, that is messed up again for 5.9, even with compatibility patches applied: home:frispete:kernel/drbd.
Given, OBS will catch up, the drbd issue can be examined in home:frispete:kernel:HEAD/drbd. While I really see the power of coccinelle in kernel development since a long time, generating coccinelle scripts on the fly might be intellectually fun, but is an awful concept for serious kernel module packaging, IMHO. Maybe I am also simply too stupid. Cheers, Pete
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 05:54:09PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:42:20 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:
The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD.
and with the attached patch applied and conditioned correctly, it even builds/ runs fine *including* nvidia-uvm.ko, recovering from the lost CUDA issue.
All I can say is that seeing a "fix" like this presented on two mailing lists devoted to open source projects makes me very sad. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 18:46:13 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 05:54:09PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:42:20 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:
The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD.
and with the attached patch applied and conditioned correctly, it even builds/ runs fine *including* nvidia-uvm.ko, recovering from the lost CUDA issue.
All I can say is that seeing a "fix" like this presented on two mailing lists devoted to open source projects makes me very sad.
I'm very sorry, if I hurt your feelings. For one, I'm very aware of the topicality of this modification. In no way, this is a fix, just a dump and bloody work around for the fallout of two fighting parties (Romans vs. Gauls). Here, it solves the problem of using Blender effectively (similar to those, that run it on windows and *laugh* at us..). This hurts as well, and effectively damages *our* reputation for a serious and valid windows replacement (again). I've been in this fight for more than two decades now, and we didn't won much terrain in this respect, unfortunately. I'm glad, that Christoph Hellweg was able to raise some attention by delicate ringing, but as Jiri initially pointed out, a cure is a week away at the very least. I expect it more likely in the range of several weeks.
From my POV, the whole case feels a like a tail trying to wag the dog.
Let's get back to serious work, get 5.9 into TW, and fix the fully open sourced, but awful drbd fallout. Sorry again, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 08:08:25 CEST schrieb Jiri Slaby:
Hi,
this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.
To cite, Nvidia promises to provide something "early". They will allegedly provide some announcement somewhere too (I don't know the details, don't ask me). Seife might (or might not) know more.
If that doesn't happen until 5.9.1²⁾, I won't wait any longer and will proceed with pushing 5.9.1 to K:s and TW. They had enough time to fix their issue. More precisely since 5.9-rc1 which was released on Aug 16 13:04:57 2020 -0700. That is almost _two_ months! In fact, they must have been aware of the problem given they have been using this so-called GPL condom for ages.
While I understand there might be CUDA users in TW, I see a little reason why one company would stop rolling our rolling distro. Users relying on uvm module should simply stay ("zypper al" is your friend) with 5.8 until the mess is resolved. If they don't announce anything, we will, so you can keep up.
For the "other" record: TW CUDA users are SNAFU'ed already: https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff/X11:Drivers:Video/nvidia-gfxG05?linkrev=base&rev=89 Some interesting notes: https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/opencl-not-working-with-kernel-5-9/156... From a user's point of view, this controversy is really nasty, because Windows users who require CUDA have a significant advantage in this regard. Try to explain this to an average user, who shows interest in using Linux, without sounding ridiculous. Self-crippling comes to my mind. Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 15/10/2020 14.38, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 08:08:25 CEST schrieb Jiri Slaby:
...
For the "other" record:
TW CUDA users are SNAFU'ed already:
https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff/X11:Drivers:Video/nvidia-gfxG05?linkrev=base&rev=89
Some interesting notes:
https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/opencl-not-working-with-kernel-5-9/156...
From a user's point of view, this controversy is really nasty, because Windows users who require CUDA have a significant advantage in this regard.
Try to explain this to an average user, who shows interest in using Linux, without sounding ridiculous.
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Some users told me they plan to edit the license files, "making nvidia parts GPL", and recompile. Lucky me, I migrated to AMD this year. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am Donnerstag, 15. Oktober 2020, 17:49:43 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 15/10/2020 14.38, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 08:08:25 CEST schrieb Jiri Slaby: ...
For the "other" record:
TW CUDA users are SNAFU'ed already:
https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff/X11:Drivers:Video/nvidia-gfxG05?l inkrev=base&rev=89
Some interesting notes:
https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/opencl-not-working-with-kernel-5-9/1 56941> From a user's point of view, this controversy is really nasty, because
Windows users who require CUDA have a significant advantage in this regard.
Try to explain this to an average user, who shows interest in using Linux, without sounding ridiculous.
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Some users told me they plan to edit the license files, "making nvidia parts GPL", and recompile.
Sure, second link...
Lucky me, I migrated to AMD this year.
Lucky you! Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist. Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed. Michal Kubecek -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Michale, Michal Kubecek <mkubecek@suse.cz> writes:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.
Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.
While I fully agree with you here for private users (and believe me, I myself will not be buying any NVidia hardware ever again unless they change their stance fundamentally), this stance unfortunately completely leaves behind corporate users like myself at $dayjob: I got a machine from the limited corporate portfolio that came with a NVidia card. So I have literally no choice other than deal with it (it's not like I can rip the card out of a laptop[1]). And at the point in time when I got the machine, it would not boot with Leap, because the kernel was just too old, so unless I would run some other distro, I had to stick with Tumbleweed. Unfortunately I have no solution for this issue, besides all corporations never buying NVidia hardware ever again, but given NVidia's portfolio, we all know how likely that is going to happen in the near future. Cheers, Dan Footnotes: [1] Yes, I can turn the card off, which I mostly do nowadays, as I like the machine not turning into a stove that survives 30min on battery... -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
On Friday 2020-10-16 10:07, Dan Čermák wrote:
this stance unfortunately completely leaves behind corporate users like myself at $dayjob: I got a machine from the limited corporate portfolio that came with a NVidia card. So I have literally no choice other than deal with it (it's not like I can rip the card out of a laptop[1]).[..]
Unfortunately I have no solution for this issue, besides all corporations never buying NVidia hardware ever again, but given NVidia's portfolio, we all know how likely that is going to happen in the near future.
The interim workaround is that you locally build your own kernel where the GPL check is disabled. Does that scale? No. Is it meant to scale? No. Does corporate know this? If not, they soon will. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 16/10/2020 01.54, Michal Kubecek wrote:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.
Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.
If you go this road, you will force real people (not Linux pros) to turn again to Windows. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 01:54:00 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.
Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.
Michal, I share your sediments from deep inside my open source heart, but.. All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1: NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90} depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation on top of the Win10 basement, and about 10% finally use TW primarily (because their favorite game is Minecraft, which is mostly fine with a decent GPU, using extensive texture packs and a huge view distance, *even* on Linux!). Those guys love Krita and Blender as well. I always ask myself, why is AMD not able to catch up in this segment. My humble guess is, they're *too* successful. Fun fact: almost all PCs I've talked about are equipped with their CPUs. AMD is messing up the GPU market, *because* their GPUs are so successful in special markets (crypto currency and such). Attracting the youth is *far* more harder. Attracting people is something we as openSUSE have to catch up on as well. Things like GPU acceleration for all kinds of workloads (UI, GFX, KI) should work out of the box for GPUs with open sourced drivers, but contrasts a lot with the X vs. Wayland mess, HiDPI issues, HDR absence, tearing on simple video playback, ... Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:30 AM Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 01:54:00 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.
Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.
Michal, I share your sediments from deep inside my open source heart, but..
All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1:
NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}
depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation on top of the Win10 basement, and about 10% finally use TW primarily (because their favorite game is Minecraft, which is mostly fine with a decent GPU, using extensive texture packs and a huge view distance, *even* on Linux!). Those guys love Krita and Blender as well.
I always ask myself, why is AMD not able to catch up in this segment. My humble guess is, they're *too* successful. Fun fact: almost all PCs I've talked about are equipped with their CPUs. AMD is messing up the GPU market, *because* their GPUs are so successful in special markets (crypto currency and such). Attracting the youth is *far* more harder.
Attracting people is something we as openSUSE have to catch up on as well. Things like GPU acceleration for all kinds of workloads (UI, GFX, KI) should work out of the box for GPUs with open sourced drivers, but contrasts a lot with the X vs. Wayland mess, HiDPI issues, HDR absence, tearing on simple video playback, ...
There are two big problems with AMD right now for *most* people: * No CUDA support * No NVENC/NVDEC support The former is basically a requirement for anything remarkably close to prosumer, nevermind the scientific world which has been trapped into CUDA as well. The content creator and gaming groups *need* NVENC/NVDEC because that's what all the tools support. Even Open Broadcaster Software only supports NVENC for GPU-accelerated streaming. Somehow, for over a decade, there still is no CUDA reimplementation for Free platforms. Maybe I missed something, but it seems like nobody ever tried. Consequently, NVIDIA Is dominant because that API is just not usable without an NVIDIA card. There's virtually no adoption of OpenCL, which means that for other GPUs to succeed, CUDA needs to work on those GPUs. But there's no reimplementation of CUDA, so we're back to where we started. This is how open source loses. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 05:38:17 -0400 Neal Gompa <ngompa13@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:30 AM Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 01:54:00 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.
Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.
Michal, I share your sediments from deep inside my open source heart, but..
All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1:
NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}
depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation on top of the Win10 basement, and about 10% finally use TW primarily (because their favorite game is Minecraft, which is mostly fine with a decent GPU, using extensive texture packs and a huge view distance, *even* on Linux!). Those guys love Krita and Blender as well.
I always ask myself, why is AMD not able to catch up in this segment. My humble guess is, they're *too* successful. Fun fact: almost all PCs I've talked about are equipped with their CPUs. AMD is messing up the GPU market, *because* their GPUs are so successful in special markets (crypto currency and such). Attracting the youth is *far* more harder.
Attracting people is something we as openSUSE have to catch up on as well. Things like GPU acceleration for all kinds of workloads (UI, GFX, KI) should work out of the box for GPUs with open sourced drivers, but contrasts a lot with the X vs. Wayland mess, HiDPI issues, HDR absence, tearing on simple video playback, ...
There are two big problems with AMD right now for *most* people:
* No CUDA support * No NVENC/NVDEC support
The former is basically a requirement for anything remarkably close to prosumer, nevermind the scientific world which has been trapped into CUDA as well. The content creator and gaming groups *need* NVENC/NVDEC because that's what all the tools support. Even Open Broadcaster Software only supports NVENC for GPU-accelerated streaming.
Somehow, for over a decade, there still is no CUDA reimplementation for Free platforms. Maybe I missed something, but it seems like nobody ever tried. Consequently, NVIDIA Is dominant because that API is just not usable without an NVIDIA card. There's virtually no adoption of OpenCL, which means that for other GPUs to succeed, CUDA needs to work on those GPUs. But there's no reimplementation of CUDA, so we're back to where we started.
There are efforts to create something like CUDA, but free. Don't hold your breath, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTq8wKnVUZ8 https://www.khronos.org/sycl/ Best reards Thomas
This is how open source loses.
-- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 16.10.20 um 11:38 schrieb Neal Gompa:
Somehow, for over a decade, there still is no CUDA reimplementation for Free platforms. Maybe I missed something, but it seems like nobody ever tried.
To be fair, depending on how Google v Oracle [1] goes that might be legally difficult. Even if Google wins, many observers think they will win on procedural grounds, meaning that reimplementing that particular API was fair use as opposed to APIs in general not being copyrightable. It's unlikely to set a favorable precedent. But let's wait.
There's virtually no adoption of OpenCL [...] That's a slight exaggeration. CUDA is used much more widely, but it's not like you can't find a decent number of OpenCL users.
What's much more disappointing to me is that the open source OpenCL implementation in Mesa seems to be more of a second class citizen and still only supports OpenCL 1.1. Best regards, Aaron [1] <https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/18-956.html> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 21 October 2020, Aaron Puchert wrote:
Am 16.10.20 um 11:38 schrieb Neal Gompa:
Somehow, for over a decade, there still is no CUDA reimplementation for Free platforms. Maybe I missed something, but it seems like nobody ever tried.
To be fair, depending on how Google v Oracle [1] goes that might be legally difficult. Even if Google wins, many observers think they will win on procedural grounds, meaning that reimplementing that particular API was fair use as opposed to APIs in general not being copyrightable. It's unlikely to set a favorable precedent. But let's wait.
There's virtually no adoption of OpenCL [...] That's a slight exaggeration. CUDA is used much more widely, but it's not like you can't find a decent number of OpenCL users.
What's much more disappointing to me is that the open source OpenCL implementation in Mesa seems to be more of a second class citizen and still only supports OpenCL 1.1.
Best regards, Aaron
[1] <https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/18-956.html>
In general Nvidia does such a reasonable job that there is really no itch to scratch. Nvidia may offend some in the open source community, but it's more of a philosophical issue that a practical one, there is insufficient real pain to drive the creation of a viable alternative. Providing Nvidia jumps through what ever hoops the kernel people require of them, I see no reason to consider their closed source driver to be evil. In fact, driving better approaches to integrating closed and open solutions is probably to the advantage of Linux in the longer term. Michael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:29:43 +0200 Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 01:54:00 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.
Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.
Michal, I share your sediments from deep inside my open source heart, but..
All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1:
NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}
depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation
Out of interest: do they have a rational argument why it's got to be Nvidia? Best regards Thomas
on top of the Win10 basement, and about 10% finally use TW primarily (because their favorite game is Minecraft, which is mostly fine with a decent GPU, using extensive texture packs and a huge view distance, *even* on Linux!). Those guys love Krita and Blender as well.
I always ask myself, why is AMD not able to catch up in this segment. My humble guess is, they're *too* successful. Fun fact: almost all PCs I've talked about are equipped with their CPUs. AMD is messing up the GPU market, *because* their GPUs are so successful in special markets (crypto currency and such). Attracting the youth is *far* more harder.
Attracting people is something we as openSUSE have to catch up on as well. Things like GPU acceleration for all kinds of workloads (UI, GFX, KI) should work out of the box for GPUs with open sourced drivers, but contrasts a lot with the X vs. Wayland mess, HiDPI issues, HDR absence, tearing on simple video playback, ...
Cheers, Pete
-- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:40:53 CEST schrieb Thomas Zimmermann:
Hi
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:29:43 +0200 Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:
All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must
have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1: NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}
depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation
Out of interest: do they have a rational argument why it's got to be Nvidia?
Not a rational one. But if they spend 300..500 Euros for their GPU, they tend to not risk *something*. That's, what they learned from us old farts. Counter question: If you were *liable* for somebody else's investment and granted, you're *not* *a* *bank*, would *you* take such a risk yourself? (eg. a GPU replacement from AMD to NVIDIA due to driver issues in game XY, FPS abysmally low, ..) Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 12:27:47 +0200 Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:40:53 CEST schrieb Thomas Zimmermann:
Hi
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:29:43 +0200 Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:
All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must
have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1: NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}
depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation
Out of interest: do they have a rational argument why it's got to be Nvidia?
Not a rational one. But if they spend 300..500 Euros for their GPU, they tend to not risk *something*. That's, what they learned from us old fart
Actually, playing safe if you only have your pocket money to spend sounds like a fairly rational choice to me. At least, I wouldn't blame them...
Counter question:
If you were *liable* for somebody else's investment and granted, you're *not* *a* *bank*, would *you* take such a risk yourself? (eg. a GPU replacement from AMD to NVIDIA due to driver issues in game XY, FPS abysmally low, ..)
I guess not. Rarely someone asks me what GPU to buy. I tend to recommend the cheapest non-Nvidia, or a good AMD-one for games. For my modest needs, I've been buying Intel or AMD for ~15yrs and never looked back. And I tend to recommend against Nvidia specifically because of the Linux driver situation. Best regards Thomas
Cheers, Pete
-- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 16/10/2020 11.29, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 01:54:00 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.
Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.
Michal, I share your sediments from deep inside my open source heart, but..
All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1:
NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}
depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation on top of the Win10 basement, and about 10% finally use TW primarily (because their favorite game is Minecraft, which is mostly fine with a decent GPU, using extensive texture packs and a huge view distance, *even* on Linux!). Those guys love Krita and Blender as well.
I always ask myself, why is AMD not able to catch up in this segment. My humble guess is, they're *too* successful. Fun fact: almost all PCs I've talked about are equipped with their CPUs. AMD is messing up the GPU market, *because* their GPUs are so successful in special markets (crypto currency and such). Attracting the youth is *far* more harder.
The other day I did a quick survey at the local computer online store, big enough to compete successful with Amazon around these parts of the globe. Of a total of 469 Lenovo laptops, only 10 had AMD cpus, only two of them not toys, sufficiently powerful. I have not looked at graphics, not that simple to filter on, and I only looked at Lenovo - but the impression I get is that it is difficult to get an AMD hardware laptop around here. They do exist, of course. (my current computers do not use NVidia) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Friday 2020-10-16 11:47, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Of a total of 469 Lenovo laptops, only 10 had AMD cpus, only two of them not toys, sufficiently powerful. I have not looked at graphics, not that simple to filter on, and I only looked at Lenovo - but the impression I get is that it is difficult to get an AMD hardware laptop around here. They do exist, of course.
It's a slow market. Half of them are stuck with contractual binds (e.g. Fujitsu), and the other half (e.g. Lenovo) is trying to sell off their Intel-based parts while they still have some remaining value. Retail stores even more so, because they are in the unfortunate middle of the food chain. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I have to agree with this. My daily work machine is a Thinkpad laptop with a Quadro P600. Most laptops that have a dGPU have a NVIDIA dGPU. I need the NVIDIA drivers mainly to drive my external screen wired to the P600. These drivers have been working flawlessly since 2 years now with Xorg. Not a single crash or problem. And they are extremely performant. I think NVIDIA gets waaay to much flak in the Linux community as if it was a cool thing to hate on NVIDIA with "AMD good" "NVIDIA bad". I will never understand this attitude. Even if they are closed source, NVIDIA do maintain their drivers and do it well. Nope, they are not going to ever Open Source their drivers they spent decades working on. And then I read about people having varying issues with their beloved AMD card, often driver bugs that may or may not be fixed in a later kernel, while I had exactly zero issue in the last 2 years... On 10/15/20 2:38 PM, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 08:08:25 CEST schrieb Jiri Slaby:
For the "other" record:
TW CUDA users are SNAFU'ed already:
https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff/X11:Drivers:Video/nvidia-gfxG05?linkrev=base&rev=89
Some interesting notes:
https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/opencl-not-working-with-kernel-5-9/156...
From a user's point of view, this controversy is really nasty, because Windows users who require CUDA have a significant advantage in this regard.
Try to explain this to an average user, who shows interest in using Linux, without sounding ridiculous.
Self-crippling comes to my mind.
Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Some good news. Finally NVIDIA's official announcement regarding this issue is available: https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/nvidia-driver-not-yet-supported-for-li... --- Due to an incompatibility issue, we advise customers to defer updating to Linux Kernel 5.9+ until mid-November when an NVIDIA Linux GPU driver update with Kernel 5.9+ support is expected to be available. Linux Kernel 5.9+ is incompatible with current and previous NVIDIA Linux GPU drivers. We advise customers to defer updating to Linux Kernel 5.9+ until mid-November when an NVIDIA Linux GPU driver update with Kernel 5.9+ support is expected to be available. NVIDIA is aware of the impact this will have on customers, and we are working diligently to provide the driver update with Kernel 5.9+ support as soon as possible. Customers must use our upcoming driver update on Kernel 5.9+ to have a fully functioning driver. --- JFYI, SUSE were in contact with NVIDIA since the kernel patch was proposed on the kernel mailing list. Unfortunately SUSE cannot share discussions and outcomes SUSE has with our partners with the openSUSE community beforehand for obvious reaons. So remaining silent when such topics pop up does not necessarily mean SUSE wouldn't care about the needs for our userbase and openSUSE community. Unfortunately Jiri wasn't involved in the discussions with NVIDIA, so he didn't know what was going on behind the doors. Otherwise this wouldn't have ended in such a shitstorm. We were already preparing an announcement for the release of Kernel 5.9 but were also still waiting for the official announcement by NVIIDA. :-( Hope this helps to understand the situation. Sigh. Thanks, Stefan On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:08:25AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi,
this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.
To cite, Nvidia promises to provide something "early". They will allegedly provide some announcement somewhere too (I don't know the details, don't ask me). Seife might (or might not) know more.
If that doesn't happen until 5.9.1²⁾, I won't wait any longer and will proceed with pushing 5.9.1 to K:s and TW. They had enough time to fix their issue. More precisely since 5.9-rc1 which was released on Aug 16 13:04:57 2020 -0700. That is almost _two_ months! In fact, they must have been aware of the problem given they have been using this so-called GPL condom for ages.
While I understand there might be CUDA users in TW, I see a little reason why one company would stop rolling our rolling distro. Users relying on uvm module should simply stay ("zypper al" is your friend) with 5.8 until the mess is resolved. If they don't announce anything, we will, so you can keep up.
¹⁾ https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/262e6ae708 ²⁾ There is no 5.9 queue in stable-queue git yet. It will take few more days or a week.
thanks, -- js suse labs
Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 16/10/2020 21.42, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Hi
Some good news. Finally NVIDIA's official announcement regarding this issue is available:
https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/nvidia-driver-not-yet-supported-for-li...
...
JFYI, SUSE were in contact with NVIDIA since the kernel patch was proposed on the kernel mailing list. Unfortunately SUSE cannot share discussions and outcomes SUSE has with our partners with the openSUSE community beforehand for obvious reaons. So remaining silent when such topics pop up does not necessarily mean SUSE wouldn't care about the needs for our userbase and openSUSE community. Unfortunately Jiri wasn't involved in the discussions with NVIDIA, so he didn't know what was going on behind the doors. Otherwise this wouldn't have ended in such a shitstorm. We were already preparing an announcement for the release of Kernel 5.9 but were also still waiting for the official announcement by NVIIDA. :-(
Hope this helps to understand the situation. Sigh.
Thank you :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Friday 2020-10-16 21:42, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
JFYI, SUSE were in contact with NVIDIA since the kernel patch was proposed on the kernel mailing list. Unfortunately SUSE cannot share discussions[...] . So remaining silent when such topics pop up does not necessarily mean SUSE wouldn't care
Readers do not necessarily see it the same way. There is a sizable difference between no reply and "we are in contact". While terse, it isn't zero-length, and that works in SUSE's favor. Please consider these four words for future events :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> [10-16-20 17:50]:
On Friday 2020-10-16 21:42, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
JFYI, SUSE were in contact with NVIDIA since the kernel patch was proposed on the kernel mailing list. Unfortunately SUSE cannot share discussions[...] . So remaining silent when such topics pop up does not necessarily mean SUSE wouldn't care
Readers do not necessarily see it the same way. There is a sizable difference between no reply and "we are in contact". While terse, it isn't zero-length, and that works in SUSE's favor. Please consider these four words for future events :)
yes! Many of us, <users>, believe that NVidia products provide better performance with graphics applications such as photo editing which may or may not be factual, but comes from history. I can remember when anything other than NVidia was a real pain. tks, -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 17. Oktober 2020, 00:30:38 CEST schrieb Patrick Shanahan:
* Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> [10-16-20 17:50]:
On Friday 2020-10-16 21:42, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
JFYI, SUSE were in contact with NVIDIA since the kernel patch was proposed on the kernel mailing list. Unfortunately SUSE cannot share discussions[...] . So remaining silent when such topics pop up does not necessarily mean SUSE wouldn't care
Readers do not necessarily see it the same way. There is a sizable difference between no reply and "we are in contact". While terse, it isn't zero-length, and that works in SUSE's favor. Please consider these four words for future events :)
yes!
Many of us, <users>, believe that NVidia products provide better performance with graphics applications such as photo editing which may or may not be factual, but comes from history. I can remember when anything other than NVidia was a real pain.
Patrick, you will find everything (fullly working) NVIDIA in my repos, including a couple of custom kernel builds, that reflect my home:frispete:kernel{,:HEAD} builds as well. Just ask, if you have questions... Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
[fsck, wrong addressees] Am Samstag, 17. Oktober 2020, 10:30:29 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:
Am Samstag, 17. Oktober 2020, 00:30:38 CEST schrieb Patrick Shanahan:
* Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> [10-16-20 17:50]:
On Friday 2020-10-16 21:42, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
JFYI, SUSE were in contact with NVIDIA since the kernel patch was proposed on the kernel mailing list. Unfortunately SUSE cannot share discussions[...] . So remaining silent when such topics pop up does not necessarily mean SUSE wouldn't care
Readers do not necessarily see it the same way. There is a sizable difference between no reply and "we are in contact". While terse, it isn't zero-length, and that works in SUSE's favor. Please consider these four words for future events :)
yes!
Many of us, <users>, believe that NVidia products provide better performance with graphics applications such as photo editing which may or may not be factual, but comes from history. I can remember when anything other than NVidia was a real pain.
Patrick,
you will find everything (fullly working) NVIDIA in my repos, including a couple of custom kernel builds, that reflect my home:frispete:kernel{,:HEAD} builds as well. Just ask, if you have questions...
Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 14. 10. 20, 8:08, Jiri Slaby wrote:
If that doesn't happen until 5.9.1²⁾, I won't wait any longer and will proceed with pushing 5.9.1 to K:s and TW.
So Nvidia made the announcements¹⁾. If I googled right, you will have uvm support for new enough gfx cards for 5.9+ by the end of the year, maybe already in mid-November. I have just submitted 5.9.1. It will appear in Kernel:stable soon. Once 5.8.15 with BleedingTooth fixes is accepted to TW (sr#842044), 5.9.x will be submitted to TW as well. ¹⁾ One of those is at: https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/nvidia-driver-not-yet-supported-for-li... thanks, -- js speaking as openSUSE community member
Hello Jiri, Am Sonntag, 18. Oktober 2020, 10:07:47 CEST schrieb Jiri Slaby:
I have just submitted 5.9.1. It will appear in Kernel:stable soon. Once 5.8.15 with BleedingTooth fixes is accepted to TW (sr#842044), 5.9.x will be submitted to TW as well.
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action Thanks Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi all, As a relatively new Nvidia user, what should I expect to happen and what do I do about it? On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 12:48 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Jiri,
Am Sonntag, 18. Oktober 2020, 10:07:47 CEST schrieb Jiri Slaby:
I have just submitted 5.9.1. It will appear in Kernel:stable soon. Once 5.8.15 with BleedingTooth fixes is accepted to TW (sr#842044), 5.9.x will be submitted to TW as well.
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
Thanks Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 13:09:49 CEST schrieb Richard Gladman:
As a relatively new Nvidia user, what should I expect to happen and what do I do about it?
nvidia will have its proprietary driver adapted to kernel 5.9 not before mid/ end November (see earlier in this thread). As a consequence, the package will fail to build. So either you pin the kernel to 5.8.x, or you uninstall the nividia driver and use nouveau for the time being. HTH Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
It does help. As a tumbleweed-cli user, it will be simpler to stay on an earlier snapshop until the updated drivers are released. That said, it may be interesting to switch to nouveau to see if the dire warnings about plasma are true. On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 13:13 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 13:09:49 CEST schrieb Richard Gladman:
As a relatively new Nvidia user, what should I expect to happen and what do I do about it?
nvidia will have its proprietary driver adapted to kernel 5.9 not before mid/ end November (see earlier in this thread).
As a consequence, the package will fail to build.
So either you pin the kernel to 5.8.x, or you uninstall the nividia driver and use nouveau for the time being.
HTH Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:13:41PM +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 13:09:49 CEST schrieb Richard Gladman:
As a relatively new Nvidia user, what should I expect to happen and what do I do about it?
nvidia will have its proprietary driver adapted to kernel 5.9 not before mid/ end November (see earlier in this thread).
As a consequence, the package will fail to build.
No, that isn't true. The build for uvm module is just disabled. So unless you're using advanced features needed for e.g. CUDA (I know some would call them basic features meanwhile) the driver is still working.
or you uninstall the nividia driver and use nouveau for the time being.
I doubt a full reliable working nouveau driver has more features than nvidia's proprietary driver lacking the uvm module. ;-) CU, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello Stefan, Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 16:16:21 CEST schrieb Stefan Dirsch:
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:13:41PM +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 13:09:49 CEST schrieb Richard Gladman:
As a relatively new Nvidia user, what should I expect to happen and what do I do about it?
nvidia will have its proprietary driver adapted to kernel 5.9 not before mid/ end November (see earlier in this thread).
As a consequence, the package will fail to build.
No, that isn't true. The build for uvm module is just disabled. So unless you're using advanced features needed for e.g. CUDA (I know some would call them basic features meanwhile) the driver is still working.
Thanks for the clarification....based on prior experience on nvidia drivers, each kernel change has the potential to break your installation. So, lets keep fingers crossed
or you uninstall the nividia driver and use nouveau for the time being.
I doubt a full reliable working nouveau driver has more features than nvidia's proprietary driver lacking the uvm module. ;-)
clearly not.... Cheers Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 05:14:56PM +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Stefan,
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 16:16:21 CEST schrieb Stefan Dirsch:
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:13:41PM +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 13:09:49 CEST schrieb Richard Gladman:
As a relatively new Nvidia user, what should I expect to happen and what do I do about it?
nvidia will have its proprietary driver adapted to kernel 5.9 not before mid/ end November (see earlier in this thread).
As a consequence, the package will fail to build.
No, that isn't true. The build for uvm module is just disabled. So unless you're using advanced features needed for e.g. CUDA (I know some would call them basic features meanwhile) the driver is still working.
Thanks for the clarification....based on prior experience on nvidia drivers, each kernel change has the potential to break your installation.
Yes, but that's a different story. ;-) Thanks, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2020-10-22 a las 16:16 +0200, Stefan Dirsch escribió:
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:13:41PM +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 13:09:49 CEST schrieb Richard Gladman:
As a relatively new Nvidia user, what should I expect to happen and what do I do about it?
nvidia will have its proprietary driver adapted to kernel 5.9 not before mid/ end November (see earlier in this thread).
As a consequence, the package will fail to build.
No, that isn't true. The build for uvm module is just disabled. So unless you're using advanced features needed for e.g. CUDA (I know some would call them basic features meanwhile) the driver is still working.
Perhaps video conversion? - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX5HNLBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVKiwAmgIqyI5POwgIwdAIo4Ts 2zFYFSYdAJ0eD4gJv08CGCiuDguyWdtkZ/JKTA== =QGL6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Axel Braun composed on 2020-10-22 13:13 (UTC+0200):
... and use nouveau for the time being.
Or (for X; Nouveau for kernel module only) the upstream default DDX driver (Modesetting; initial release Feb. 2012, provided by server package since 1.17.0 five years ago), newer technology that doesn't depend on reverse engineering. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> [10-22-20 11:42]:
Axel Braun composed on 2020-10-22 13:13 (UTC+0200):
... and use nouveau for the time being.
Or (for X; Nouveau for kernel module only) the upstream default DDX driver (Modesetting; initial release Feb. 2012, provided by server package since 1.17.0 five years ago), newer technology that doesn't depend on reverse engineering.
please explain how to use this. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2020-10-22 13:22 (UTC-0400):
* Felix Miata composed:
Axel Braun composed on 2020-10-22 13:13 (UTC+0200):
... and use nouveau for the time being.
Or (for X; Nouveau for kernel module only) the upstream default DDX driver (Modesetting; initial release Feb. 2012, provided by server package since 1.17.0 five years ago), newer technology that doesn't depend on reverse engineering.
please explain how to use this.
zypper rm xf86-video-nouveau xorg-x11-driver-video <follow proprietary *NVidia* driver instructions provided at their installation> and/or Configure modesetting specifically via Section "Device" somewhere in /etc/X11/xorg.con* after completely purging proprietary changes to libs and blacklisting, and deleting any config files resulting from proprietary driver installation or update. If installing openSUSE anew, taboo xorg-x11-driver-video & xf86-video-nouveau. <https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/541438-AMD-Intel-amp-NVidia-X-graphics-driver-primer> -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On 22. 10. 20, 12:48, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Sonntag, 18. Oktober 2020, 10:07:47 CEST schrieb Jiri Slaby:
I have just submitted 5.9.1. It will appear in Kernel:stable soon. Once 5.8.15 with BleedingTooth fixes is accepted to TW (sr#842044), 5.9.x will be submitted to TW as well.
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
5.9.1 was submitted in: https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/843006 It seems no build of any package is broken. openQA demonstrates some breakage though. So once this is accepted, next snapshot will. I can leave a note here when the sr is accepted. thanks, -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 12:48 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
Yeah, so about this, what's the latest kernel with which nvidia-uvm / CUDA actually works? Asking because with kernel 5.8.14-1, I'm getting this: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177995 With 5.8.15-1, the module build is disabled, but I've been told (couldn't test it first hand yet) that if one builds it and tries to load it, the issues above may have gone away? And with 5.9.1, it just won't be there, right? I have an NVIDIA, but I'm not a CUDA user myself, it's just for the sake of giving accurate enough advice to users. :-) Regardsa -- Dario Faggioli, Ph.D http://about.me/dario.faggioli Virtualization Software Engineer SUSE Labs, SUSE https://www.suse.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- <<This happens because _I_ choose it to happen!>> (Raistlin Majere)
Am Freitag, 23. Oktober 2020, 13:04:40 CEST schrieb Dario Faggioli:
On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 12:48 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
Yeah, so about this, what's the latest kernel with which nvidia-uvm / CUDA actually works?
Asking because with kernel 5.8.14-1, I'm getting this: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177995
With 5.8.15-1, the module build is disabled, but I've been told (couldn't test it first hand yet) that if one builds it and tries to load it, the issues above may have gone away?
And with 5.9.1, it just won't be there, right?
I have an NVIDIA, but I'm not a CUDA user myself, it's just for the sake of giving accurate enough advice to users. :-)
Hrmpf. https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2020-10/msg00224.html Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 02:46:13PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 23. Oktober 2020, 13:04:40 CEST schrieb Dario Faggioli:
On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 12:48 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
Yeah, so about this, what's the latest kernel with which nvidia-uvm / CUDA actually works?
Asking because with kernel 5.8.14-1, I'm getting this: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177995
With 5.8.15-1, the module build is disabled, but I've been told (couldn't test it first hand yet) that if one builds it and tries to load it, the issues above may have gone away?
And with 5.9.1, it just won't be there, right?
I have an NVIDIA, but I'm not a CUDA user myself, it's just for the sake of giving accurate enough advice to users. :-)
Hrmpf.
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2020-10/msg00224.html
Meanwhile addressed. Thanks, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:55:22PM +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 02:46:13PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 23. Oktober 2020, 13:04:40 CEST schrieb Dario Faggioli:
On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 12:48 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
Yeah, so about this, what's the latest kernel with which nvidia-uvm / CUDA actually works?
Asking because with kernel 5.8.14-1, I'm getting this: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177995
With 5.8.15-1, the module build is disabled, but I've been told (couldn't test it first hand yet) that if one builds it and tries to load it, the issues above may have gone away?
And with 5.9.1, it just won't be there, right?
I have an NVIDIA, but I'm not a CUDA user myself, it's just for the sake of giving accurate enough advice to users. :-)
Hrmpf.
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2020-10/msg00224.html
Meanwhile addressed.
Repositories have already been updated last night. Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 01:04:40PM +0200, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 12:48 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
Yeah, so about this, what's the latest kernel with which nvidia-uvm / CUDA actually works?
Asking because with kernel 5.8.14-1, I'm getting this: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177995
With 5.8.15-1, the module build is disabled, but I've been told (couldn't test it first hand yet) that if one builds it and tries to load it, the issues above may have gone away?
Fixed this today for Kernel 5.8. uvm build is enabled again for kernels < 5.9. Packages should be available early next week. Thanks, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:54:12PM +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 01:04:40PM +0200, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 12:48 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:
It would be great if you could announce in which snapshot the 5.9 kernel will arrive, so every nivida user can take appropriate action
Yeah, so about this, what's the latest kernel with which nvidia-uvm / CUDA actually works?
Asking because with kernel 5.8.14-1, I'm getting this: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177995
With 5.8.15-1, the module build is disabled, but I've been told (couldn't test it first hand yet) that if one builds it and tries to load it, the issues above may have gone away?
Fixed this today for Kernel 5.8. uvm build is enabled again for kernels < 5.9. Packages should be available early next week.
Repos have already been updated. Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
While I understand there might be CUDA users in TW, I see a little reason why one company would stop rolling our rolling distro. Users relying on uvm module should simply stay ("zypper al" is your friend) with 5.8 until the mess is resolved. As a NVidia and Tumbleweed user I dislike the idea to lock Kernel
Jiri Slaby wrote: package 5.8. I dislike the idea for security reasons. I do not want to use a Linux system which may use a Kernel with unfixed security issues perhaps over many weeks or months. My work-around is, that I compile current longterm Kernels of the longterm 5.4 series. But this work-around is not an suggestion for everyone. Compiling a Kernel package about twice a week and manually compiling the NVidia driver (the Tumbleweed Nvidia packages are not compiled automatically, if a non-openSUSE Kernel package is used) is quite expensive. Regards, Björn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2020, 12:30:08 CEST schrieb Bjoern Voigt:
Jiri Slaby wrote:
While I understand there might be CUDA users in TW, I see a little reason why one company would stop rolling our rolling distro. Users relying on uvm module should simply stay ("zypper al" is your friend) with 5.8 until the mess is resolved.
As a NVidia and Tumbleweed user I dislike the idea to lock Kernel package 5.8. I dislike the idea for security reasons. I do not want to use a Linux system which may use a Kernel with unfixed security issues perhaps over many weeks or months.
My work-around is, that I compile current longterm Kernels of the longterm 5.4 series. But this work-around is not an suggestion for everyone. Compiling a Kernel package about twice a week and manually compiling the NVidia driver (the Tumbleweed Nvidia packages are not compiled automatically, if a non-openSUSE Kernel package is used) is quite expensive.
Since I stated this already, allow me a brief answer: * nothing is blocking 5.9 * you will not miss anything with 5.9, you got with 5.8 nvidia-wise since uvm is disabled since *5.8* anyway In other words, you're about 11 weeks too late, if you really miss something in this regard. If you need CUDA support, reread the thread and watch out for a patch. G04 support is similar, but not identical. Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 10:12:07PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Since I stated this already, allow me a brief answer: * nothing is blocking 5.9 * you will not miss anything with 5.9, you got with 5.8 nvidia-wise since uvm is disabled since *5.8* anyway
In other words, you're about 11 weeks too late, if you really miss something in this regard.
Not exactly true. I prepared this already a long time ago in the package sources, but the packages with this change weren't updated until last week Oct 14. I changed this today, so users staying with Kernel 5.8 will again have built uvm module. Hope that updated packages will be available early next week. Thanks, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:51:18PM +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 10:12:07PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Since I stated this already, allow me a brief answer: * nothing is blocking 5.9 * you will not miss anything with 5.9, you got with 5.8 nvidia-wise since uvm is disabled since *5.8* anyway
In other words, you're about 11 weeks too late, if you really miss something in this regard.
Not exactly true. I prepared this already a long time ago in the package sources, but the packages with this change weren't updated until last week Oct 14.
I changed this today, so users staying with Kernel 5.8 will again have built uvm module. Hope that updated packages will be available early next week.
Repos have already been updated. Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (19)
-
Aaron Puchert -
Axel Braun -
Bjoern Voigt -
Carlos E. R. -
Dan Čermák -
Dario Faggioli -
Felix Miata -
Hans-Peter Jansen -
Jan Engelhardt -
Jiri Slaby -
Larry Finger -
Michael Hamilton -
Michael Pujos -
Michal Kubecek -
Neal Gompa -
Patrick Shanahan -
Richard Gladman -
Stefan Dirsch -
Thomas Zimmermann