On 06/15/2012 01:59 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

In http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-06/msg00618.html :

...

a gcc update would be useful, this probably has to happen very early in the cycle (right after the release).

It looks like this proposal has potential, but I wonder and ponder.

I went on to compare the development schedules of a few groups. Because I could not find the freeze dates for older openSUSE anymore (why remove them from the detailed view?), I took RC1 as freeze point.

#Group Ratio days between merge-phase and frozen-phase # openSUSE_11.4 7.50 210/28(RC1) openSUSE_12.1 8.62 224/26(RC1) openSUSE_12.2 7.78 210/27(RC1) (prerel-freeze: 6.18, 204/33) Debian_4 4.73 553/117 Debian_5 2.34 476/203 Debian_6 2.91 536/184 Fedora_17 1.22 111/91 Fedora_16 1.67 105/63 Fedora_15 1.06 104/98

I don't have numbers, but I think Debian has the most packages in a release, followed by Fedora, followed by openSUSE. The number of packages matters for estimating effort and hardware resources required.

...

And now for the winners:

Linux_3.4 0.24 12/50 Linux_3.3 0.25 15/59 Linux_3.2 0.24 14/58

I don't think it's fair to compare the kernel with an entire distro!

...

My interpretation: there is not enough testing going on in openSUSE.

Software engineering metrics are a well-established area of study and have been since the days of Fred Brooks' "Mythical Man-Month". These are wheels that need not be re-invented. I think the first order of business in the post-12.2 planning is to come up with goals for the next release relative to the other community distros and the user communities.

1. Given that a *new* user has decided to try Linux, how does he/she decide which distro? 2. What makes a long-standing Linux user switch distros? 3. How does openSUSE propose to attract new users faster than Fedora, Ubuntu and Mint?

This, as you state requires planing, which is what we have avoided/ignored so far. To this point our releases have mostly grown organically and have put us into hot water w.r.t. the time based release schedule every now and then, more so now than previously. This however would lead to another discussion thread. Do we as a community want a "feature planned release?" There are a lot of implication that I do not want to get into and I don't really want anyone to answer or respond to this in this thread as it is only tangentially related to the development model discussion. for me the model is more about how packages get to Factory, how we deal with SRs etc. Even if we planned features if we didn't change the dev model the flow of packages to Factory would be the same, thus my claim the the planned "vs." organic is only tangentially related. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I don't have numbers, but I think Debian has the most packages in a release, followed by Fedora, followed by openSUSE. The number of packages matters for estimating effort and hardware resources required.

Number of packages is irrelevant because Debian and Ubuntu do a lot of retarded splitting; For example, I can split a package in 4 sub-packages, and eventually Debian would split it in 6/7 packages for the same software... So in the end... We probably have more packages. From 11.4 onwards, every release, openSUSE grows between 700 to 800 source packages ;) We're growing way to fast... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20.06.2012 13:20, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Tuesday 2012-06-19 22:42, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

I don't have numbers, but I think Debian has the most packages in a release, followed by Fedora, followed by openSUSE. The number of packages matters for estimating effort and hardware resources required.

Number of packages is irrelevant because Debian and Ubuntu do a lot of retarded splitting; For example, I can split a package in 4 sub-packages, and eventually Debian would split it in 6/7 packages for the same software...

Retarded is when you don't split. See for example the rationale on http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Shared_library_packaging_policy .

Since Fedora does not do naming like that and instead bundles related libs into one "foo-libs" package, they traditionally have a low bincount. But bincount is the wrong thing to count anyway. You ought to look at the src package count.

Provided everybody does sensible packaging (i.e. not stuffing all 5000 upstream projects into a single SRPM), the srccount is only a rough indicator for "richness", not "work involved".

Consider SUSE's xorg-x11.srpm which has been split into 97 new (source) packages. You think that means more work? I tell you it was more work before; trying to match up patches with tarballs when it was a single srcpkg made more work, I would argue.

You are right, another point is that openSuse can provide better installations, less unused sofware will be installed. But on the other hand to many packages lead to a higher load on the obs which is a problem already as all of you know. So it needs to be balanced betweeen these two causes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Friday 2012-06-15 21:46, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

And now for the winners:

Linux_3.4 0.24 12/50 Linux_3.3 0.25 15/59 Linux_3.2 0.24 14/58

My interpretation: there is not enough testing going on in openSUSE.

Yeah, some stuff (iscsi for instance) isn't being tested at all.

ISCSI is unfortunately enterprisey enough that most people rather use SLE than openSUSE for it.

Like you said, not enough testing happening. There are plenty of examples. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

i think also that when the developers choose component they also need to choose that the component have a long life and not short (like 3.1 kernel and ......) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 16.06.2012 00:25, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...

My view is that there's not enough prioritization going on. ;-)

You do realize that we are an open source project and not your usual software-sweat-shop right? ;)

We as distro channel and integrate what all the FOSS projects and our own contributors do out there. We don't direct resources, we feed of what happens because an individual, a group or a company has an itch to scratch.

It's the integration work that currently lacks passion and people and that's why we have problems. So before you suggest other software-sweat-shop things like resource planing, project management or super-distros I suggest you think again about what we are and what we do :)

Why should resource planning and project management and "what we do" be mutually exclusive? It seems to me that this thread is exactly about a call for more resource planning and project management such that we have a higher probability of achieving what we aim for. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 18.06.2012 11:24, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hey,

On 16.06.2012 00:25, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...

My view is that there's not enough prioritization going on. ;-)

You do realize that we are an open source project and not your usual software-sweat-shop right? ;)

We as distro channel and integrate what all the FOSS projects and our own contributors do out there. We don't direct resources, we feed of what happens because an individual, a group or a company has an itch to scratch.

It's the integration work that currently lacks passion and people and that's why we have problems. So before you suggest other software-sweat-shop things like resource planing, project management or super-distros I suggest you think again about what we are and what we do :)

Why should resource planning and project management and "what we do" be mutually exclusive? It seems to me that this thread is exactly about a call for more resource planning and project management such that we have a higher probability of achieving what we aim for.

Resource planning sounds pretty cool to me. I guess a good first step would be to have everyone who plans to work on factory in the next year to sign up and block vacation days, so we can book him.

Stephan, there's no call for that sarcastic tone. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/18/2012 12:07 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 18.06.2012 12:06, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

...

Why should resource planning and project management and "what we do" be mutually exclusive? It seems to me that this thread is exactly about a call for more resource planning and project management such that we have a higher probability of achieving what we aim for.

Resource planning sounds pretty cool to me. I guess a good first step would be to have everyone who plans to work on factory in the next year to sign up and block vacation days, so we can book him.

Stephan, there's no call for that sarcastic tone. Why should resource planning and sarcasm be mutal exclusive? Do you want to be booked or not?

Guys... This tone-roughness-increase-proportional-to-length-of-thread (not exclusively but definitely a openSUSE trade-mark) thing is exactly what I wrote about (way) earlier this thread, sadly without getting a single reply so far... -- Viele Grüße, Sascha Peilicke

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Monday 18 June 2012 14:21:06 Sascha Peilicke wrote:

...

On 06/18/2012 12:07 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

On 18.06.2012 12:06, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

...

Why should resource planning and project management and "what we do" be mutually exclusive? It seems to me that this thread is exactly about a call for more resource planning and project management such that we have a higher probability of achieving what we aim for.

Resource planning sounds pretty cool to me. I guess a good first step would be to have everyone who plans to work on factory in the next year to sign up and block vacation days, so we can book him.

Stephan, there's no call for that sarcastic tone.

Why should resource planning and sarcasm be mutal exclusive? Do you want to be booked or not?

Guys... This tone-roughness-increase-proportional-to-length-of-thread (not exclusively but definitely a openSUSE trade-mark) thing is exactly what I wrote about (way) earlier this thread, sadly without getting a single reply so far...

It can be hard to not act sarcastic if you feel people keep making uninformed comments. Patience runs out at that point. To improve the culture on our list, we need to work on both sides, I guess. Increase patience and increase informedness.

I agree with all of those. Completely. I dunno if there's much anyone can do about it though. I've been running a business for about eight years - before that I was a senior software engineer for about the same time. I know what it means to lose patience with employees or team-members, but I also know how much respect I lose when I take it out on those.

Of course, we could create a questionnaire which would be answered before people could get access to this list:

- can you tell volunteers what to do? - does 'project management' make much sense in a FOSS community? - are my ideas unique and does everyone need to know about them? - do I have to 'win' discussions by repeating my point without listening? - will others do what I say if I just keep nagging them?

If any of the questions is answered with 'Yes', put them on the alltalk@opensuse.org list instead.

I guess you missed my point about the sarcasm, Jos.

It would lower the amount of frustration and noise on this list and in that way increase the quality of openSUSE considerably.

Somehow I doubt it. You _actually_ think less frustration and less noise leads to more testing??

A more constructive idea might be to have a wiki page with 'how openSUSE works' with a FAQ on the things that come up again and again - including answering the questions I gave above. At least we'd be able to reply to people just pointing to that page instead of being sarcastic.

I'd be happy to draft something up.

Please do. That would keep you busy, which would surely mean less noise here. /Per Jessen PS: sorry about losing my patience there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/06/12 06:50, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Tuesday 19 June 2012 21:35:06 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Jos Poortvliet wrote: <snip> Somehow I doubt it. You _actually_ think less frustration and less noise leads to more testing?? No, less whining would distract the developers less so they can fix the real issues.

...

...

A more constructive idea might be to have a wiki page with 'how openSUSE works' with a FAQ on the things that come up again and again - including answering the questions I gave above. At least we'd be able to reply to people just pointing to that page instead of being sarcastic.

I'd be happy to draft something up. Please do. That would keep you busy, which would surely mean less noise here. Touch� :D

...

/Per Jessen PS: sorry about losing my patience there. Well, same for me ;-)

Please forgive me everybody if this seems offtopic and appears to start a new thread - which is not my intention of doing either - but my curiosity began with the fact that your word "touche`" has an "illegal" char at the end which indicated to me that your mailer is not using the now standard UTF-8 coding. But this then led me to wonder why this message of yours has "jos@opensuse.org" in its address whereas the HEADER information is showing that you are using Kmail/4.8.4 with the desktop kernel 3.4.2-28 but with the account name of "jospoorvliet@gmail.com". I ask because one person, who has been banned from all openSUSE lists, nevertheless now has access under 3 different aliases, and who also uses gmail, has created a gmail account using my name and has posted a number of messages using my name. I have never had a gmail account, never will have a gmail account, and have never used an alias. For this reason I ask for patience when I question why the HEADER to your post is showing apparent contradictory information. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 20 June 2012 13:29:46 Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Wednesday 2012-06-20 09:12, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

...

Please do. That would keep you busy, which would surely mean less noise here.

Touch??? :D

...

/Per Jessen PS: sorry about losing my patience there.

Well, same for me ;-)

Please forgive me everybody if this seems offtopic and appears to start a new thread - which is not my intention of doing either - but my curiosity began with the fact that your word "touche`" has an "illegal" char at the end which indicated to me that your mailer is not using the now standard UTF-8 coding. Jos had his mail sent properly AFAICS, clearly declaring that ISO-8859 is being used.

[main] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1928609.yGKDFdtRT9"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[message body] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

[...] Touch=E9 :D [...]

If your MUA cannot understand these headers, that is your problem :)

You're both going over my head here, I simply haven't changed anyting special in KMail. But a quick check shows me KMail replies preferably in us- ascii, then iso-8859-1, then utf-8. I've set it to attempt to keep the original charset when replying or forwarding for your convenience. My emails are send via the Google smtp from my gmail address (jospoortvliet@gmail.com) while jos@opensuse.org is just a forwarding address. And I'm quite sorry that somebody is impersonating you, Basil, as that is extremely inconvenient at the least and possibly rather harmful in the worst. I am sure the admins on this list (see the bottom of any mail for contacting the list owner) will happily block somebody impersonating you when you ask them. Cheers, Jos

Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 18.06.2012 12:06, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

...

Why should resource planning and project management and "what we do" be mutually exclusive? It seems to me that this thread is exactly about a call for more resource planning and project management such that we have a higher probability of achieving what we aim for.

Resource planning sounds pretty cool to me. I guess a good first step would be to have everyone who plans to work on factory in the next year to sign up and block vacation days, so we can book him.

Stephan, there's no call for that sarcastic tone.

Why should resource planning and sarcasm be mutal exclusive? Do you want to be booked or not?

I'm really sorry I failed to get my point across. IMHO, caustic sarcasm like yours does not help the creation nor the maintenance of a sense of community, especially not when it's coming from (otherwise) prominent community members. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 21 June 2012 09:53, maury63ts wrote:

I ask if is possible in te future using a system to upgrade ad install at the same time how happens during a new installation or ugrade system by CD's or DVD's release.

$ fgrep -A19 "Commit download policy to use as default." /etc/zypp/zypp.conf ## Commit download policy to use as default. ## ## DownloadOnly, Just download all packages to the local cache. ## Do not install. Implies a dry-run. ## ## DownloadInAdvance, First download all packages to the local cache. ## Then start to install. ## ## DownloadInHeaps, Similar to DownloadInAdvance, but try to split ## the transaction into heaps, where at the end of ## each heap a consistent system state is reached. ## ## DownloadAsNeeded Alternating download and install. Packages are ## cached just to avid CD/DVD hopping. This is the ## traditional behaviour. ## ## <UNSET> If a value is not set, empty or unknown, we pick ## some sane default. ## commit.downloadMode = DownloadInHeaps -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 21 June 2012 11:30:18 maury63ts wrote:

Thank you for very fast reply.

I apologize, one question. I've understand and i will changing my Zypp.conf file... But is possible, on box of this graphic utility (factory-update), to have the possibility to change this, with a check button so can rewrite in automatic the file zypp.cof? I know that who use Linux system from much time, this is a stupid question, but for who is the first time in the Linux world, it would simplify life.

Excuse me for my english is no good.

Maurizio

I do not believe this to be possible. However, Maurizio, if you hit ALT-F2 and type "kdesu kwrite /etc/zypp/zypp.conf" followed by your root account password you'll have a graphical editor in which you can change this file. On a gnome desktop I am unaware of an easy way to have a root gedit window but I'm sure it is possible somehow.

Il 21/06/2012 11.14, Cristian Morales Vega ha scritto:

...

On 21 June 2012 09:53, maury63ts wrote:

...

I ask if is possible in te future using a system to upgrade ad install at the same time how happens during a new installation or ugrade system by CD's or DVD's release.

$ fgrep -A19 "Commit download policy to use as default." /etc/zypp/zypp.conf ## Commit download policy to use as default. ## ## DownloadOnly, Just download all packages to the local cache. ## Do not install. Implies a dry-run. ## ## DownloadInAdvance, First download all packages to the local cache. ## Then start to install. ## ## DownloadInHeaps, Similar to DownloadInAdvance, but try to split ## the transaction into heaps, where at the end of ## each heap a consistent system state is reached. ## ## DownloadAsNeeded Alternating download and install. Packages are ## cached just to avid CD/DVD hopping. This is the ## traditional behaviour. ## ##<UNSET> If a value is not set, empty or unknown, we pick ## some sane default. ## commit.downloadMode = DownloadInHeaps

Maybe I explained badly. I understand these operations, I meant to say... when open "yast" not from terminal but graphical, if possible to have inside the graphical box of "factory-update" package, the possibility to check directly from it the change on zypp.conf in a future release of openSUSE or is a stupid idea? Ok, no problem... Forget what I said. You can close this thread. Il 21/06/2012 15.21, Guido Berhoerster ha scritto:

On 21.06.2012 15:00, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Thursday 21 June 2012 11:30:18 maury63ts wrote:

...

Thank you for very fast reply.

I apologize, one question. I've understand and i will changing my Zypp.conf file... But is possible, on box of this graphic utility (factory-update), to have the possibility to change this, with a check button so can rewrite in automatic the file zypp.cof? I know that who use Linux system from much time, this is a stupid question, but for who is the first time in the Linux world, it would simplify life.

Excuse me for my english is no good.

Please don't hijack threads.

...

I do not believe this to be possible. However, Maurizio, if you hit ALT-F2 and type "kdesu kwrite /etc/zypp/zypp.conf" followed by your root account password you'll have a graphical editor in which you can change this file.

On a gnome desktop I am unaware of an easy way to have a root gedit window but I'm sure it is possible somehow.

That's bad advice, there is no need to run a an editor with root privileges. Use "SUDO_EDITOR=/path/to/my/editor sudoedit /etc/zypp/zypp.conf" from a terminal, it does the right thing, ie. it makes a copy of the file letting you edit it as a user and replaces the original file with the edited copy once you're finished. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 18.06.2012 11:24, Per Jessen wrote:

Why should resource planning and project management and "what we do" be mutually exclusive?

I never said it is. It's just not as important as in the classic software world. And applying them to our problems without thinking about what we are, how we work and what we aim for isn't the smartest thing to do :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org