On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 09:59:44AM -0400, Marc Collin wrote:

i use suse 64bits since a couple of release and one thing i notice it's slower than the 32 bits and slower than other 64 bits distribution (fedora and mandrake)

Slower in doing exactly what? Robert -- Robert Schiele Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@gmail.com "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

Le mercredi 13 septembre 2006 11:04, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

Marc Collin writes:

...

i use suse 64bits since a couple of release and one thing i notice it's slower than the 32 bits and slower than other 64 bits distribution (fedora and mandrake)

don't know if you use tuning option when you build...

We do build with -O2. Such a speed difference is interesting and I would be interested in the cause,

Andreas

minimum to be done: -march=x86-64 i think x86 64 bits have minimum sse2 -mfpmath=sse2 -msse2 -funroll-all-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -ffast-math could be nice if more optimization can be done --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le mercredi 13 septembre 2006 15:59, Stephan Kulow a écrit :

Am Mittwoch, 13. September 2006 20:57 schrieb Marc Collin:

...

minimum to be done: -march=x86-64

i think x86 64 bits have minimum sse2

-mfpmath=sse2

-msse2 -funroll-all-loops

Make sure you read http://funroll-loops.org/ - what exactly do you measure?

time to start, time to run function..... when i created some program in C for a company i used often something similar to.... g++ -O2 -funroll-all-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -ffast-math -march=x86-64 -mfpmath=sse program_name.cpp -o program_name i get about 10% faster then the standard syntax.... without change my code..... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 04:46:30PM -0400, Marc Collin wrote:

time to start, time to run function.....

when i created some program in C for a company i used often something similar to....

g++ -O2 -funroll-all-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -ffast-math -march=x86-64 -mfpmath=sse program_name.cpp -o program_name

i get about 10% faster then the standard syntax....

Compared to what? Measured on what sort of algorithms? I'l try to explain why your suggestion does not really make sense: - -funroll-all-loops unrolls even loops where performance gains are at least questionable. On the other hand loop unrolling can always lead to cache thrashing and thus slowing down code in the average case. - -fomit-frame-pointer is on for -O2 on plattforms where it does not hurt debugging anyways. On the other plattforms it makes debugging practically impossible. - -ffast-math is critical (as mentioned already in another mail) because it makes the compiler violate standards. - -march=x86-64 --- What do you expect from that except cluttering the command line? - -mfpmath=sse is default anyway on x86-64. As a conclusion the only thing that does make sense here is -O2 which is used anyway. As a general rule of thumb: Never use an "optimization" if not _both_ of the following conditions hold true: 1. You know exactly what (side) effects your "optimization" does provide. 2. You can _prove_ by numbers that the "optimization" does provide a _significant_ benefit in a _typical_ use case. Robert -- Robert Schiele Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@gmail.com "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

Marc Collin writes:

Le mercredi 13 septembre 2006 11:04, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...

Marc Collin writes:

...

i use suse 64bits since a couple of release and one thing i notice it's slower than the 32 bits and slower than other 64 bits distribution (fedora and mandrake)

don't know if you use tuning option when you build...

We do build with -O2. Such a speed difference is interesting and I would be interested in the cause,

Andreas

minimum to be done: -march=x86-64

This is the default for x86-64 ;-)

i think x86 64 bits have minimum sse2

-mfpmath=sse2

This is written in the ABI, no need to add it.

-msse2

Same here.

-funroll-all-loops

This might be slower in some cases.

-fomit-frame-pointer

This is part of the ABI, no need to do it ;-)

-ffast-math

You will break applications this way. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Andreas Hanke writes:

Andreas Jaeger schrieb:

...

* Java for Distribution building

We're currently building java-1_4_2-sun and the suggestion was to switch to java-1_5_0-sun.

java-1_5_0-sun for x86_64 does not include a Mozilla plugin.

It will work with Konqueror and Opera because they don't need the Java plugin for Java applet support, but it will not work with Mozilla based browsers.

This should not block the switch IMHO, but be prepared for complaints nevertheless.

We would still deliver both - the question is which to use for building by default... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Manfred Tremmel writes:

Am Mittwoch, 13. September 2006 17:04 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

...

We would still deliver both - the question is which to use for building by default...

If you compile a java program using java 1.4.2 it's running also with java 1.5.0. If you compile it with java 1.5.0 it will not run with java 1.4.2. So what's worth to deliver both, when nothing works with with

Thanks, didn't know that.

1.4.2 when it's build with 1.5.0.

You could still install both on your system...

For my own, I can't switch to 1.5.0, there are a lot of SAP-servers (AIX and SUSE) at work I have to write Java modules and I also can't switch to 1.5.0 on my knightsoft-net Webserver, it needs to much memory for the small vserver.

Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Am Donnerstag, 14. September 2006 17:49 schrieb Marc Collin:

javac Usage: javac <options> <source files> where possible options include:

-source <release> Provide source compatibility with specified release -target <release> Generate class files for specific VM version

Ok, when "-target 1.4" is used to build the packages, I don't have anything against building the packages with java 1.5.0. Would be bad not to be able to user jdbc drivers or anything else with gcj or Sun's java 1.4.2. -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 14. September 2006 21:36 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

Manfred Tremmel wrote:

...

Ok, when "-target 1.4" is used to build the packages, I don't have anything against building the packages with java 1.5.0. Would be bad not to be able to user jdbc drivers or anything else with gcj or Sun's java 1.4.2.

I don't understand what you mean.

What I mean is, when SUSE switches to build all the delivered java packages with java 1.5.0 without backwardcompatibility, they will not work with gcj or Sun's java 1.4.2, what (as I've understood) should be allready be part of the next release.

For your own code, just use -source 1.4 -target 1.4

Right, but when SUSE itselve doesn't do this, I will not be able to start a delivered tomcat, Eclipse, with 1.4.2 and all the libs (my /usr/share/java directory is full of jar files which are part of the SUSE distribution) wouldn't be useable with gcj or Sun's java 1.4.2. My hope is to get a *open* java for a *open*SUSE. I don't think Sun's java will be open in near future, it's a process starting with the next version, but will take a while, and maybe the wind changes inbetween. So I hope, gcj + classpath could replace Sun java, so we shouldn't build walls creating with getting incompatible jar-files. -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 14. September 2006 23:43 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

gcj+classpath can already "replace" a lot of Sun's JVM/JDK if you don't take Swing into account.

I know. I've started using gcj + classpath in the 10.0 beta phase, a lot of bugreports I've written concern on this. There are some more problems than only swing, but I was astonished, how far it allready is. -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 11:02:30PM +0200, Manfred Tremmel wrote:

...

...

For your own code, just use -source 1.4 -target 1.4 Right, but when SUSE itselve doesn't do this, I will not be able to start a delivered tomcat, Eclipse, with 1.4.2 and all the libs (my /usr/share/java directory is full of jar files which are part of the SUSE distribution) wouldn't be useable with gcj or Sun's java 1.4.2.

If we manage to deliver openSUSE on all relevant platforms with an 1.5 (compatible) java, I actually wouldn't mind that the jars are incompatible with 1.4.2. 1.5 has been around for a while, 1.6 is about to come out, and I don't think we should wait with the move to the admittedly incompatible 1.5 language features until Sun decides to drop support for 1.4.2 altogether.

However (big however!) I have also to care about the platforms for which no Sun java exists, so I am sceptical about the switch as well. But the only way to find out what will really break is to start building the stuff with java 1.5 on the platforms where it is available.

Yeah, well, there's no substantial point in building 1.5 bytecode if the source code doesn't use features from JSE 5 (generics, annotations, autoboxing). Almost every Java OSS project I know of tries hard to be compliant with 1.4 and sometimes even 1.3 (e.g. even Spring Framework 2.0 works with 1.3, and god knows it's a hell of a cool framework with tons of features). The annoyance wrt packaging is that you have to know whether to pass - -source 1.4 -target 1.4 or not, but the minimum JRE major version is always documented, for each project. Most Java OSS projects still only use 1.4 features in their source code. The push towards JSE 1.5 comes mostly through EJB3/JPA (that requires JSE/JDK 1.5). Generally speaking, wide-spread adoption of new JVM/JDK major versions is very slow though, mostly because of EJB container vendors (e.g. IBM just released a 1.5 capable Websphere a few months ago) and, well, you can't just replace all those production servers easily ;)

...

My hope is to get a *open* java for a *open*SUSE. I don't think Sun's java will be open in near future, it's a process starting with the next version, but will take a while, and maybe the wind changes inbetween. So I hope, gcj + classpath could replace Sun java, so we shouldn't build walls creating with getting incompatible jar-files.

That's a different can of worms ;-) While Sun java is a black box to us, we can (within tight resource and also knowledge constraints on my part) fix gcj/gij/classpath so that it can deal with 1.5-compiled jars. (I'm actually not even sure that it plainly doesn't work, but I'll have to check first before making any statements here.) And then there

As long as the source code doesn't use features from 1.5, it will work great (given the current caveats of GNU Classpath, e.g. Swing support not being complete). As an example, Tomcat 5.5 still runs with 1.4 (needs a few additional jars though). "Fixing gcj/classpath so that they can deal with 1.5-compiled jars" would mean at the very least adding generics, annotations and autoboxing bytecode support into gcj (the compiler), as well as kaffe, sablevm or cocoavm (the runtime(s)). The point about the incompatibility is really the bytecode (obviously): the new features of 1.5 come with new bytecode instructions, and those are not supported by 1.4 JVMs - unless using retroweaver (http://retroweaver.sourceforge.net/), but I can't comment on that, never tried it myself.

are other free jvms which we might want to check out. Any input on them would be greatly appreciated, btw.

I can put you in contact with Dalibor Topic (Kaffe lead), Mark Wielaard (GNU Classpath lead) and possibly others in that realm, I've got good contacts with them (FOSDEM) - besides the fact that they are really nice people. I'm sure they'd be interested in hearing about that ;) IMHO the "problem" with GCJ, GNU Classpath, Kaffe, CacaoVM, SableVM etc.. is that they are highly interdependent and we'd need to release updates at regular intervals, especially for GNU Classpath, at least in the Build Service. Then we would be able to build more and more packages with GCJ/GNU Classpath instead of using the Sun javac, as a lot of progress is being made with every GNU Classpath release. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFCdYfr3NMWliFcXcRAhPyAJ9d68CoJGAN1jN3aD7TCkFOxts4vgCdFcFP uMyRbmCZSLFEtMYaYT2QSYg= =54XJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 12:22:23AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Yeah, well, there's no substantial point in building 1.5 bytecode if the source code doesn't use features from JSE 5 (generics, annotations, autoboxing).

Agreed.

...

"Fixing gcj/classpath so that they can deal with 1.5-compiled jars" would mean at the very least adding generics, annotations and autoboxing bytecode support into gcj (the compiler), as well as kaffe, sablevm or cocoavm (the runtime(s)).

I was under the impression that at least the gcc community is already working on that. "Fixing" gcj thus need not mean implementing the stuff myself, but also providing bugreports and testcases etc., which we wouldn't come up with if we just stay with the status quo. With free projects there's at least a possibility for us to help.

Yes, totally, testing and providing bugs/reports is great help. IMO the Build Service is a good platform for that, in order to provide the latest builds of GCJ, GNU Classpath, ... for SUSE Linux, and possibly for other distributions as well (maybe the current Fedora maintainers would be interested in sharing the efforts). As those projects are still evolving a lot, and make significant leaps with each release, the distribution is not well suited as it is almost immune to feature upgrades (of packages). - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFCk4xr3NMWliFcXcRAgYdAKCEGFcx7yu9Ixv4w4nRz9gn+5GiKgCfehWg hsNotPqco99rQFDKtv6J8qo= =wuBi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 14. September 2006 21:34 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...

to 1.5.0 on my knightsoft-net Webserver, it needs to much memory for the small vserver.

The same bytecode uses more RAM when running with 1.5 than with 1.4 ?

The virtual machine needs more RAM to start, so I don't have enough space left for my own servlets. I've rent the smalest version of the VServer which is very limited in ram (in the FAQ the provider says it's to small for tomcat, I never could belive it ;-) ). Using java 1.5 I can watch two generated pages, the third one ends with a out of memory entry in the logfils. Using java 1.4.2 it works stable without a problem, even with high loads. -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 14. September 2006 23:59 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

Manfred Tremmel wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag, 14. September 2006 21:34 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

...

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...

to 1.5.0 on my knightsoft-net Webserver, it needs to much memory for the small vserver.

The same bytecode uses more RAM when running with 1.5 than with 1.4 ?

The virtual machine needs more RAM to start, so I don't have enough space left for my own servlets. I've rent the smalest version of the VServer which is very limited in ram (in the FAQ the provider says it's to small for tomcat, I never could belive it ;-) ). Using java 1.5 I can watch two generated pages, the third one ends with a out of memory entry in the logfils. Using java 1.4.2 it works stable without a problem, even with high loads.

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/vm/gc-ergonomics.html

Just start the 1.5 JVM with -Xmx64m and you will have the same heap size as the default heap size on 1.4

Sorry, you've understand something wrong, the RAM is very limited! Using -Xmx31m works, using -Xmx30m is to less to start tomcate and -Xmx32m is to much to get it stable run (even a simple ls fails because of missing ram).

Tiger (1.5) is definitely faster than 1.4 (even with 1.4 bytecode, it's really the JVM that's faster), it should just be a matter of configuring the maximum heap size (and possibly the thread stack size (-Xss)), as the defaults have changed (see URL above).

If you use the 1.5 JVM, you should really try out Tomcat 5.5, it has vast improvements, if you don't already use that version now.

I belive it, but the knightsoft-net servier is the only one I can decide, what's installed, all the intranet-servers I'm developing for I can't so I'll try to get the same base. My framework I've created for my website is also the backround for all other developments.

As a replacement for Tomcat, Winstone should have lower demands in terms of resources: http://winstone.sourceforge.net/ (dual-license LGPL/CDDL; it supports servlet 2.5, AJP, vhosting, SSL, JNDI, clustering, etc... - for JSP support, you must add Tomcat's Jasper, but that's documented)

Jetty should be memory-friendlier than Tomcat as well: http://jetty.mortbay.org/

Ok, I think I should take a look on this two alternates.

Though it's perfectly fine to run Tomcat with just 64MB. We've got JIRA running in production (around 80 users, overall) with Tomcat and 64MB.

Hey, I'm doing my performance tests on a i486/66 with 24 MByte RAM, Java 1.3 with Apache + JServ (SUSE 7.3). It's a good motivation to invest some time in optimising the code, when you work with such a server ;-) -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander writes:

Onsdag 13 september 2006 15:52 skrev Andreas Jaeger:

...

Here're the current agenda items. Any comments? Anything you like us to look at?

* Java for Distribution building

We're currently building java-1_4_2-sun and the suggestion was to switch to java-1_5_0-sun.

Hmmm.. I run 64bit. And my homebanking doesn't work with Java 1.5.0 (i586) and Firefox (also 32bit). Works fine with java-i586-1.4.2 though. On 32bit SUSE the homebanking works fine with java 1.5.0. Always been a mystery to me.

But if no java 1.4.2 is supplied I'd have to run 32bit again or get Java 1.4.2 from SUN and install it manually. Just something to think about - in general I have little idea how much requires java 1.5.0 and how much stuff will only work with 1.4.2.

We're just speaking about the java for *building* the distribution. We would still deliver both, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Marc Collin writes:

Le mercredi 13 septembre 2006 11:05, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...

We're just speaking about the java for *building* the distribution. We would still deliver both,

Andreas

i hope java 1.5 will be default, more and more program need it, faster program start

java 1.6 is suppose to go out in december does suse will include it?

That's too late, check the roadmap, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Am Donnerstag, 14. September 2006 10:04 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

Not sure why sun java is not included but we cannot include IBM Java in openSUSE,

Why? -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 09:28:04PM +0200, Peter Czanik wrote:

Could PPC get a bit more Java support? Both IBM and Sun have Java for PPC,

There's a Sun java for ppc? Do you have a link to that? Sonja -- Sonja Krause-Harder (skh@suse.de) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hello, Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

...

Could PPC get a bit more Java support? Both IBM and Sun have Java for PPC,

There's a Sun java for ppc? Do you have a link to that?

Found it here: http://www.ppczone.org/news.php?id=271 Which has a link to http://java.sun.com/j2se/embedded/ Personally I never tried it, but got positive feedback from Gentoo developers. Bye, -- CzP http://peter.czanik.hu/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org