On Friday 17 July 2009 15:58:34 Vincent Untz wrote:

Hey,

I'm looking at https://features.opensuse.org/305296 The decision was to disable beagle by default. We have various options to do so and I'd like feedback on what would work best for people:

+ we can add a key to the autostart desktop file so that it gets disabled by default. Issue: there's no standardized keys accross all desktops to do this. The KDE team is fine with not enabling beagle at all in KDE (using something like NotShowIn=KDE), but we'd still have the issue in XFCE and other desktops. A possible solution is to use OnlyShowIn=GNOME so that beagle only gets considered by GNOME during startup (still disabled, though).

+ we can simply remove the autostart desktop file. Issue: it will not be possible to enable the start of beagle via the usual autostart preferences. Note that there's an option in the beagle preferences to automatically get it started (it will add a .desktop file to the autostart directory).

Both options are kind of okay, but I guess it really depends on how people on other desktops that GNOME and KDE want this to work. Any opinion from XFCE people, for example?

Thanks,

Vincent

-- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.

In my opinion it would be better to take the second route. The first time someone does a beagle search (usually from the gnome-main-menu or by hitting F12) beagle suggests that the daemon is not running and then allows one to start it from its interface. That way beagle only gets enabled when somebody actually tries to carry out a search the first time, which, in my opinion, is good. -- Atri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le vendredi 17 juillet 2009, à 12:52 +0200, jdd a écrit :

Vincent Untz a écrit :

...

Both options are kind of okay, but I guess it really depends on how people on other desktops that GNOME and KDE want this to work. Any opinion from XFCE people, for example?

may be we should think of a more general install system.

like, on the first screen:

* All automatic (including new stuff) * Automatic, but with options * fully manual

I don't think there's a need for this, really. In 90% of the cases, the autostart apps are fine. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management.

+1 -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Andreas Vetter Informations- und Kommunikationstechnik Fakultaet fuer Physik und Astronomie Universitaet Wuerzburg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 7/17/2009 at 13:33, Andrew Joakimsen wrote: How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management.

That would translate in 'hiding the feature from the user that does not know about it yet'. Not exactly the same as having it disabled by default for everybody and the advanced user that knows he does not need it can either a) decide to keep it there, just disabled (so it won't do any harm except the few MB install space) b) remove it from the system entirely Hiding it completely from a new user does not sound like a good idea (especially as newer versions really are much much better with the resources than what it used to be). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management.

+1 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2009 15:50:13 schrieb Larry Stotler:

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Why? It's much harder for people to do this since it means they have to know about it. (and, well, this thread is about implementation of what was decided; trying to change the decision should have happened earlier, and in fate)

Isn't Beagle a Gnome based app? If so, then it should only be installed if the user selects Gnome. Especially since KDE4 has Nepomuk/stringi, and you are now creating a redundant set of search tools to be installed(If I understand the situation correctly).

So, No Beagle install for KDE4, install for the rest?

I don't think the LXDE or XFCE users would all approve that. Beagle for gnome and strigi/nepomuk for kde, I guess the others know what they are doing and want a slim system, desktop search doesn't really fit in there and they propably know how to get it themself. I think Vincents suggested patch is the proper way for this. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le vendredi 17 juillet 2009, à 09:50 -0400, Larry Stotler a écrit :

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Why? It's much harder for people to do this since it means they have to know about it. (and, well, this thread is about implementation of what was decided; trying to change the decision should have happened earlier, and in fate)

Isn't Beagle a Gnome based app? If so, then it should only be installed if the user selects Gnome. Especially since KDE4 has Nepomuk/stringi, and you are now creating a redundant set of search tools to be installed(If I understand the situation correctly).

So, No Beagle install for KDE4, install for the rest?

My question was not about what gets installed or not. It was about how to best handle the initial disabled state. I don't know if beagle gets installed if you select KDE, and it's certainly at least a topic that you can argue about for XFCE. But again, this is off-topic if you look at my initial question. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Il venerdì 17 luglio 2009, Oddball scrisse:

Andreas Vetter schreef:

...

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management.

+1

+1 +1

-- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

My question was not about what gets installed or not. It was about how to best handle the initial disabled state.

Maybe that particular topic should be reopened then. I wasn't aware of it. Only when Andreas(I think) commented that it was going to be disabled by default was I even aware that there was discussion about it.

I don't know if beagle gets installed if you select KDE, and it's certainly at least a topic that you can argue about for XFCE. But again, this is off-topic if you look at my initial question.

It did for 11.0/11.1. Not sure about the Milestones, haven't had time to play with them. Considering that 11.2 is still in a basic Alpha state, it's definately not too late to make changes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-07-18 at 02:53 -0400, Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 13:44, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

On Friday 17 Jul 2009 12:33:34 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management.

Now that is more like it   NOT by default after all the really usefull  tool like findutils-locate has to be searched for to install it so why not exactly the same for beagle  whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Very good point. It just so happens findutils-locate is my favorite search tool and I can not recall it ever being installed by default.

I do. It was installed by default under SuSE 5.x and 6.x at least, and was dropped perhaps with version 7 or 8, for security concerns mostly. Which is why many of us knew the tool... because it was installed by default; interestingly, many people complained that their machine started trashing their HD at strange hours every day and became unusable. >:-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkphjGUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WnUgCeOf0srtN5FJdj7UV+H24+LV+k /8MAn05o4Z4jkrVNjI5BcNQxoT52WLA8 =LTxI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Friday 17 July 2009 04:33:34 am Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management. +1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 18 Jul 2009 09:48:34 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Saturday, 2009-07-18 at 02:53 -0400, Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 13:44, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

On Friday 17 Jul 2009 12:33:34 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management.

Now that is more like it NOT by default after all the really usefull tool like findutils-locate has to be searched for to install it so why not exactly the same for beagle whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Very good point. It just so happens findutils-locate is my favorite search tool and I can not recall it ever being installed by default.

I do.

It was installed by default under SuSE 5.x and 6.x at least, and was dropped perhaps with version 7 or 8, for security concerns mostly.

Which is why many of us knew the tool... because it was installed by default; interestingly, many people complained that their machine started trashing their HD at strange hours every day and became unusable. >:-)

well that was down to cron the way suse sets up cron is terrible AFAIAK i have always and always will change that lot around to suit myself so never ran into problems with the updatedb program (which is the updater for the locate DB) . If you just blindly accept the installed settings you are going to run into slowdown (no where near as bad as the darn dog beagle thou) the suse idea of cron as has been stated on the lists or an regular basis is pants to say the least with timings that are to say the least weired erring on strange who would start an DB update in the middle of the working afternoon when the machine is in full use maybe there is some logic in it i cant find any , These sort of things either need to run overnight (as mine do) or they need to be easily set to run during the lunch break or similar . Cheers Pete .

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-07-19 at 08:28 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote:

It was default up to around 7.x. I still enabled for 8.x, but then HDD became fast enough to use 'find' directly and get an answer in reasonable time.

Not here. A find can take half an hour. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpjFGkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UJJQCfdU8Qyp/CmjyHD8zAAWjGGJV4 XDAAn2f9s8M3Krm5K/lNzMsFHw8iwNNJ =X8Gm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Sunday, 2009-07-19 at 08:28 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote:

...

It was default up to around 7.x. I still enabled for 8.x, but then HDD became fast enough to use 'find' directly and get an answer in reasonable time.

Not here. A find can take half an hour.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

You mean you actually use it, or just a test for this topic? When I forgot to install findutils-locate, I take the one-time hit, install it and run updatedb, then use locate. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device. On Jul 17, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Friday 17 Jul 2009 12:33:34 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

How about not to install it by default? If one wishes to enable this "feature" it can be done via YaST -> Software Management.

Now that is more like it NOT by default after all the really usefull tool like findutils-locate has to be searched for to install it so why not exactly the same for beagle whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Pete .

Why do so many people feel like completely gutting desktop search from openSUSE? The proposal to leave it installed and simply have the indexer turned off until the first search is probably the best comprimise to satisfy those with issues with Beagle (of course, the best solution would be to try and see why Beagle is giving some people issues and attempt to solve them, but no volunteers have stepped forward to do so). (oh, and findutils-locate? Yeah, that's user friendly ;-) -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-07-19 at 16:20 -0500, Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

Why do so many people feel like completely gutting desktop search from openSUSE? The proposal to leave it installed and simply have the indexer turned off until the first search is probably the best comprimise to satisfy those with issues with Beagle (of course, the best solution would be to try and see why Beagle is giving some people issues and attempt to solve them, but no volunteers have stepped forward to do so).

What do you mean, no volunteers? Those of us that like beagle and see a problem report them, and they get eventually corrected. There is a page with information on how to help. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpjoHAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U8twCgjQZZud7ihCA1VyrNaJP/KzH6 6vUAnRELO9cpdTLlC3N9gE+TpZoWp5D5 =Z36C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bjørn Lie wrote:

sø., 19.07.2009 kl. 23.26 +0100, skrev Peter Nikolic:

...

On Sunday 19 Jul 2009 22:20:44 Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

...

Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device.

On Jul 17, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Peter Nikolic

SNIP

...

Maybe because we did not want them in the first place have you ever thought of that one .. As for volunteers being as not many want it in the first place are you surprised that no one has offered .

It never fails to amuse / annoy me to see how because a minority want something they try to force it on a majority then start crying foul when the majority say get shut of it and we aint interested in going any further with this when the message is so clear then it SHOULD be dealt the deal of death i fail to see the amazing in that yet some get right hot under the collar at the mere thought of removing something that only they and one or two others use

Oh and findutils-locate is spot on nothing fancy just does it's job and does it well

Pete

What you have to remember is that users that make use a such a tool as beagle is normally not the ones reading opensuse-factory.

The employees in our customer service use desktop search tools all the time, as this where to put files/emails is hard for them. But searching for them is easy.

However, if this tool was not preinstalled for them they would never think ( or be allowed ) to download and install it by them selves.

For you the powerusers that have a problem with it, is it so hard to do a zypper rm beagle? ( even if I fail to see the point of this if its installed but disabled, it's not a huge package)

Furthermore the only pc I have had to disable beagle because it was slowing it down was my Grandmothers amd duron 900 mhz with 384 mb ram.

// Bjørn

Add my AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 6000+ box with 4G of memory to your grandmother's duron. I don't think people are complaining in such numbers because they have slow boxes. I'll grant you "zypper rm beagle" sounds a good solution. # zypper rm beagle Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... 'beagle' is not installed. Resolving package dependencies... Nothing to do. Oh! looks like I did it way back. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2009-07-20 at 00:38 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Sunday, 2009-07-19 at 16:20 -0500, Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

...

Why do so many people feel like completely gutting desktop search from openSUSE? The proposal to leave it installed and simply have the indexer turned off until the first search is probably the best comprimise to satisfy those with issues with Beagle (of course, the best solution would be to try and see why Beagle is giving some people issues and attempt to solve them, but no volunteers have stepped forward to do so).

What do you mean, no volunteers? Those of us that like beagle and see a problem report them, and they get eventually corrected. There is a page with information on how to help.

Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have said 'no volunteers'. My bad. But there does seem to be more energy in this project focused on removing Beagle rather than trying to fix it, does there not? -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member & Ambassador www.twitter.com/KevinDupuy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-07-20 at 12:23 -0500, Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

...

What do you mean, no volunteers? Those of us that like beagle and see a problem report them, and they get eventually corrected. There is a page with information on how to help.

Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have said 'no volunteers'. My bad. But there does seem to be more energy in this project focused on removing Beagle rather than trying to fix it, does there not?

Not really. Simply those of us that like beagle are less vociferous. We keep silent on all those ravings, and get on using it ;-) Seriously, I see no point in arguing with those that "hate" beagle with so heated arguments. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpkyZAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VLPACcCr8F4JuC4gnhUHky1P06dlf1 jewAmweoCnRaQKY6hGyO2yFtTLW2CGOi =2YRm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote: <snip>

Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have said 'no volunteers'. My bad. But there does seem to be more energy in this project focused on removing Beagle rather than trying to fix it, does there not?

Hi, You can't fix it easily. Let us assume, that Beagle is coded well, and it uses the resources optimally. In this case the hardly solvable problem is default configuration. As I see, the main problem is the indexing of uncomplete files. If you download files to a separate directory, and exclude it from searching, than it OK, but if not, and you try to download a dvd image for example, the indexer will eat everything, what can, because it tries to discover the contain of a part of the iso image. It won't succeed of course. It will eat everything until the download is finished, when at last it will be able to index it. Another option could be to remove $HOME from the default search path. In this case, if someone wants to use it, he could for mails and web pages, and if he likes it, he could enable indexing for files. He will see kerry (I don't know the name of it for Gnome) in the system tray, so it won't be hidden. What do you think about it? Cheers, Tamas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkpl/WQACgkQsuVyj8v2Zy6YWQCffI/fzftVzf9LgTrX8VWEbwKV LycAn3QkuD6fQ8Dz1epsgT6dbnvZ+ip0 =qcBB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz wrote:

Hey,

I'm looking at https://features.opensuse.org/305296 The decision was to disable beagle by default. We have various options to do so and I'd like feedback on what would work best for people:

If it's been decided, I know this is the wrong time/place to ask this. But I hope you guys will guide me to the proper path: How could beagle be fixed instead of getting rid of it? I can easily get rid of it myself if I want to but I'm not able to fix it though I'd like to. I've used it a lot during times in different versions of openSUSE and possibly before "open" ones. I can't remember exactly when it appeared. But I like it when it works. In my boxes (KDE) It only "goes crazy" every once in a while. I haven't got a clue what triggers it to do so. When I notice that (it takes one core 100%, I have four) I stop Kerry. Then I start it again and it will run again for days without problems. It also finds anything in no time at all from my several TB of disks. So not installing it or not enabling it as default is no fix IMHO. Still, once installed or enabled it will continue the same ol' way. So how to fix it? Who could do that? -- Vahis http://waxborg.servepics.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Wednesday, 2009-07-22 at 19:58 +0300, Vahis wrote:

...

If it's been decided, I know this is the wrong time/place to ask this. But I hope you guys will guide me to the proper path: How could beagle be fixed instead of getting rid of it?

http://beagle-project.org/Troubleshooting

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I kinda saw that one coming... -- Vahis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org