[opensuse-factory] X11 -> wayland
LS, Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW. Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall. Maybe first starting with the X11 server under wayland is an option and later migrating packages to use native wayland? Has anybody already had some experience with this transition? --- Frans. -- A: Yes, just like that A: Ja, net zo Q: Oh, Just like reading a book backwards Q: Oh, net als een boek achterstevoren lezen A: Because it upsets the natural flow of a story A: Omdat het de natuurlijke gang uit het verhaal haalt Q: Why is top-posting annoying? Q: Waarom is Top-posting zo irritant? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am So, 25. Okt, 2020 um 10:51 A. M. schrieb Frans de Boer <frans@fransdb.nl>:
LS,
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW. Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall. Maybe first starting with the X11 server under wayland is an option and later migrating packages to use native wayland?
Has anybody already had some experience with this transition?
1. Xfwm doesn't have support for Wayland yet 2. Switching over to Wayland is basically relogging into Wayland session from your Display Manager LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Frans de Boer píše v Ne 25. 10. 2020 v 10:51 +0100:
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW. Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall. Maybe first starting with the X11 server under wayland is an option and later migrating packages to use native wayland?
No, you don't have to reinstall everything. With GDM and Gnome it just about installing the package gnome-session-wayland and then selecting Wayland session type in the GDM login menu. Not sure about XFCE. Best, Matěj -- https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. -- Barry Goldwater (actually written by Karl Hess)
On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 5:51 PM Frans de Boer <frans@fransdb.nl> wrote:
LS,
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW. Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall. Maybe first starting with the X11 server under wayland is an option and later migrating packages to use native wayland?
Has anybody already had some experience with this transition?
Xfce does not support Wayland for now. If you wish to use Wayland your best bet is to use Gnome. Cheers, -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/10/2020 11:17, Maurizio Galli wrote:
On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 5:51 PM Frans de Boer <frans@fransdb.nl> wrote:
LS,
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW. Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall. Maybe first starting with the X11 server under wayland is an option and later migrating packages to use native wayland?
Has anybody already had some experience with this transition?
Xfce does not support Wayland for now. If you wish to use Wayland your best bet is to use Gnome.
Cheers,
Quick responses, thanks for it. OK, I understand that I have to say goodbye to XFCE, but gnome it way bigger +100 MB in memory consumption. Not a real problem with having 16 GB of memory, still.... Luckily, the power consumption is comparable. The issue is that I want to switch to Wayland on my KDE machines in the near future and wanted to have some experience on a machine I can handle also without any GUI if that breaks down. Maybe my best bet is to duplicate my current TW install on one machine and then change that to Wayland. Not sure how or if that works, but at least it is on an separate system partition. On the other hand, KDE is investing a lot into the transition towards Wayland, maybe just wait some time and see if and what transition is supported by TW. Choices... ;) --- Frans. -- A: Yes, just like that A: Ja, net zo Q: Oh, Just like reading a book backwards Q: Oh, net als een boek achterstevoren lezen A: Because it upsets the natural flow of a story A: Omdat het de natuurlijke gang uit het verhaal haalt Q: Why is top-posting annoying? Q: Waarom is Top-posting zo irritant? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 25. Oktober 2020, 12:24:22 CET schrieb Frans de Boer: Maybe my best bet is to
duplicate my current TW install on one machine and then change that to Wayland. Not sure how or if that works, but at least it is on an separate system partition.
No need to do so. You should be able choose between KDE(X11) and KDE(Wayland) on the displaymanagers login screen.
--- Frans.
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Markus Koßmann wrote:
You should be able choose between KDE(X11) and KDE(Wayland) on the displaymanagers login screen. My displaymanager (SDDM) currently shows all Wayland sessions in gray. I have a Nvidia card with the proprietary driver packages from the openSUSE repository (download.nvidia.com/opensuse). I remember that I had to set a kernel modesetting option in Grub (|nvidia-drm.modeset=1|), but anyway Wayland/Nvidia setup did not work reliable on my box last time.
Here I see "The drivers provided through the nvidia suse repository (download.nvidia.com/opensuse) are not currently compatible with Wayland display protocol (at 08-2020)." (source https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_troubleshooting#Wayland_versus_nvidia_pro...) Does anyone use Wayland/Nvidia successfully on TW? What is the setup? Greetings, Björn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Long time Xorg and NVIDIA user, I tested Wayland for the first time ever yesterday, to check if it could be a replacement. I run i3 on Xorg, so the equivalent on Wayland would be sway but that does not work with NVIDIA as explained by this amusing trolling option: [sway/main.c:99] Proprietary Nvidia drivers are NOT supported. Use Nouveau. To launch sway anyway, launch with --my-next-gpu-wont-be-nvidia and DO NOT report issues So I tested GNOME and Plasma which supposedly support NVIDIA drivers. First, I had to disable Optimus in my laptop BIOS (not all laptop have this option) because Wayland+NVIDIA binary driver is a no go with Optimus: it will hard lock the machine and even crash the kernel. With Optimus disabled, I could have GNOME running great via the command-line (SDDM gave me trouble, which I did not investigate, could be my setup): XDG_SESSION_TYPE=wayland dbus-run-session gnome-session I did not spend a lot of time testing, but Multi-monitor worked fine. Intellij IDEA started in Xwayland but with wrong scaling and huge fonts (I'm using a 4K monitor with 200% scaling). This can probably be fixed but did not investigate. Firefox started with Wayland support crashed on start, until I started in safe mode (with WebRender disabled). Did not spend a lot of time in it but about:support sometimes crashed. I could start Plasma (KWIN_DRM_USE_EGL_STREAMS=1 dbus-run-session startplasma-wayland) but it had many issues so did not spend a long time testing here. In the end, I got back quick to my perfectly working and trusty Xorg and will revisit Wayland in 2 years. The only thing Wayland has for it as far as I'm concerned is per monitor dpi and scaling, a feature that will unfortunately never make it to Xorg. On 10/26/20 10:27 AM, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
Markus Koßmann wrote:
You should be able choose between KDE(X11) and KDE(Wayland) on the displaymanagers login screen. My displaymanager (SDDM) currently shows all Wayland sessions in gray. I have a Nvidia card with the proprietary driver packages from the openSUSE repository (download.nvidia.com/opensuse). I remember that I had to set a kernel modesetting option in Grub (|nvidia-drm.modeset=1|), but anyway Wayland/Nvidia setup did not work reliable on my box last time.
Here I see "The drivers provided through the nvidia suse repository (download.nvidia.com/opensuse) are not currently compatible with Wayland display protocol (at 08-2020)." (source https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_troubleshooting#Wayland_versus_nvidia_pro...)
Does anyone use Wayland/Nvidia successfully on TW? What is the setup?
Greetings, Björn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, unfortunately I do not have solutions for NVIDIA users but two notes: * Java applications in general are a mess under Wayland if scaling is used. They either don't scale or scale incorrectly. Some of them you can force a particular scaling with command-line arguments though my experience has not been the best. * Firefox in general works fine under Wayland with some minor graphical glitches. Drag and drop does not work if dragging outside Firefox or vice-versa. In multi-monitor situations with different scaling, Firefox will not re-scale. Lukas ________________________________________ Od: Michael Pujos <pujos.michael@gmail.com> Odesláno: pondělí 26. října 2020 10:53 Komu: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Předmět: Re: [opensuse-factory] X11 -> wayland Long time Xorg and NVIDIA user, I tested Wayland for the first time ever yesterday, to check if it could be a replacement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
OK, I understand that I have to say goodbye to XFCE, but gnome it way bigger +100 MB in memory consumption.
I don't know how it's with Gnome, but here's a quite recent comparison of XFCE and KDE: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/10/23/bold-prediction-kde-w... TL;DR: KDE is surprisingly slim.
Hi! On 10/25/20 10:51 AM, Frans de Boer wrote:
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW.
Not sure what the use of a display manager on a server is.
Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall.
You shouldn't need to reinstall anything. GTK and Qt support both X11 and Wayland. Besides that, whenever I tried Wayland, there was always something that wouldn't work properly. But I guess I should try again. Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/10/2020 12:38, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Hi!
On 10/25/20 10:51 AM, Frans de Boer wrote:
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW. Not sure what the use of a display manager on a server is.
Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall. You shouldn't need to reinstall anything. GTK and Qt support both X11 and Wayland.
Besides that, whenever I tried Wayland, there was always something that wouldn't work properly. But I guess I should try again.
Adrian
I was waiting to see a reaction with the question what the use of a GUI is on a server ;) Normally, a CLI is enough. However, having a GUI environment makes it much more easier to maintain the server and all of it's options. Only masochists use 'ed' or 'vi', just like I did in the very distant past. So many tools with the ease of using a GUI... Also, thanks folks for pointing me in the right direction for using KDE on Wayland. So, I call this issue closed. --- Frans. -- A: Yes, just like that A: Ja, net zo Q: Oh, Just like reading a book backwards Q: Oh, net als een boek achterstevoren lezen A: Because it upsets the natural flow of a story A: Omdat het de natuurlijke gang uit het verhaal haalt Q: Why is top-posting annoying? Q: Waarom is Top-posting zo irritant? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 26 October 2020, Frans de Boer wrote:
On 25/10/2020 12:38, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Hi!
On 10/25/20 10:51 AM, Frans de Boer wrote:
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW. Not sure what the use of a display manager on a server is.
Of course, I do not like to reinstall all packages again - assuming it is anyhow possible under TW - and am wondering if there is a way to accomplish this without a reinstall. You shouldn't need to reinstall anything. GTK and Qt support both X11 and Wayland.
Besides that, whenever I tried Wayland, there was always something that wouldn't work properly. But I guess I should try again.
Adrian
I was waiting to see a reaction with the question what the use of a GUI is on a server ;) Normally, a CLI is enough. However, having a GUI environment makes it much more easier to maintain the server and all of it's options. Only masochists use 'ed' or 'vi', just like I did in the very distant past. So many tools with the ease of using a GUI...
Also, thanks folks for pointing me in the right direction for using KDE on Wayland. So, I call this issue closed.
Note that with KDE you will have the choice of a Wayland and Full-Wayland session. With Full-Wayland both KWin-Wayland window manager/compositor and KDE applications will run purely via Wayland. For non-Full-Wayland KWin-Wayland runs KDE/GDK applications in XWayland, the Xorg server ported to be a Wayland client. Running applications via XWayland is often more stable. Note also, you can actually play with a nested kwin_wayland running as wayland compositor inside a normal window in an X11 session. export $(dbus-launch) kwin_wayland --width=1280 --height=1024 --xwayland plasmashell Or for full Wayland: # Force all Qt and GTK applications to use Wayland export QT_QPA_PLATFORM=wayland export GDK_BACKEND=wayland kwin_wayland --width=1280 --height=1024 --xwayland plasmashell The above is derived from a somewhat drawn out forum discussion about what Wayland really is. The confusion arises because Wayland is only a specification, there is no one/official Wayland implementation, KWin-Wayland is just one implementation among many. The original discussion can be found here: https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/540552-Wayland-vs-Full-Wayland/pa... Best of luck. I'm not sure KWin-Wayland is all there yet for corner cases, for example, I can't seem to tell it which monitor should be the primary one. Cheers, Michael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020/10/25 04:38, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Hi!
On 10/25/20 10:51 AM, Frans de Boer wrote:
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted.
Nevertheless, the xorg mailing list is still alive and active w/~30 posts this month.
Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW.
Not sure what the use of a display manager on a server is.
---- If it was me, I want it to display remotely, not actually on the server which has poopy on-board graphics, but I use my server as my desktop's backend (disk, development, network, etc) so I like to keep a few server-status windows up and running up in the corner so if I'm working on a program and something seems slow I can glance up and see what's going on and see a bit of history on mem,cpu,disk and net usage. Admittedly, the 2nd window is a tty window using curses+color, but it only shows current net+disk io + topio-progs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 27. Oktober 2020, 21:37:03 CET schrieb L A Walsh:
On 2020/10/25 04:38, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Hi!
On 10/25/20 10:51 AM, Frans de Boer wrote:
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted.
--- Nevertheless, the xorg mailing list is still alive and active w/~30 posts this month.
Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW.
Not sure what the use of a display manager on a server is.
In the good ol' days, there was freenx and friends, but that appeared as way too filigree to supply a sustainable and robust multi seat remote desktop experience everywhere. In other words: No alternative to MS-RDS. Speaking of Wayland: I don't understand the farewell to X11 until at least one usable remote desktop solution is available. We (I) already suffer from "modern" solutions like sddm. Being the preferred DM for openSUSE but missing XDMCP support, it even renders the poor man's way to drive remote desktops (libvnc) nearly unusable (at least DM wise). [No to speak of OpenGL compositors..] The whole movement spits into the maps of MS and promotes sick solutions like Teamviewer. We are moving **away** from world domination on the desktop in huge steps. This mess is our share in the EU administration's ignorance in this respect.
---- If it was me, I want it to display remotely, not actually on the server which has poopy on-board graphics, but I use my server as my desktop's backend (disk, development, network, etc) so I like to keep a few server-status windows up and running up in the corner so if I'm working on a program and something seems slow I can glance up and see what's going on and see a bit of history on mem,cpu,disk and net usage.
Admittedly, the 2nd window is a tty window using curses+color, but it only shows current net+disk io + topio-progs.
As a reminder, gkrellm has a gkrellmd component. Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi! On 10/25/20 10:51 AM, Frans de Boer wrote:
Development of X11 seems already a long time ago to be halted. Thus i am thinking of switching from X11 to wayland on my server running xCFE and TW.
I gave it another try last week only to notice that a Full Wayland session wouldn't even start Plasma while the "regular" Wayland session worked fine but Firefox and Thunderbird still have issues with the clipboard. I always have to copy something twice before it is actually copied into the clipboard which I find very annoying which is why I switched back to X11. Anyone seen this issue as well? Adrian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 3. November 2020, 10:34:58 CET schrieb John Paul Adrian Glaubitz:
I always have to copy something twice before it is actually copied into the clipboard which I find very annoying which is why I switched back to X11.
Anyone seen this issue as well?
Yes, but at random. First I thought it were a side effect of the emacs keyring. It isn't. Alexander -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (14)
-
Adam Mizerski -
AW -
Bjoern Voigt -
Frans de Boer -
Hans-Peter Jansen -
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz -
L A Walsh -
Lukas Kucharczyk -
Markus Koßmann -
Matěj Cepl -
Maurizio Galli -
Michael Hamilton -
Michael Pujos -
Stasiek Michalski