Re: [opensuse] Re: [opensuse-factory] The road to systemd for openSUSE 12.1
On 06/20/2011 10:41 AM, Dr. Werner Fink pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:21:43AM -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 06/20/2011 04:40 AM, Dr. Werner Fink pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:43:12PM +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
I'd like to know what the big vendors are thinking about this. Introducing risks due lazy/snooty systemd developers can not be a reason to ignore well-founded and common rules how to handle big severs.
Most of the 'lazy/snooty systemd developers' work for the biggest vendors. :)
Does this mean that IBM will enforce that /usr and other useful partitions will be only avaiable by using initramfs?
WHY? You don't need /usr on a separate partition anymore.
I'm aware that a separate /usr is only optional. Personal I do not use a separate /usr partition. Nevertheless I know customers using such /usr partition to minimize downtime due e.g. file system problems.
Wouldn't it be better to fix the real problem instead?
I was first exposed to UNIX in 1988. Back then the largest harddrives were not big enough to fit the whole operating system let alone user login info plus any user data. There was no choice but to split some directories off onto a separate drives (partitions).
Let's get our heads out of the sand and our asses and get with modern times.
Hmmm, I'm not speaking about my personal system setup. On my own privat system I've /, /var, /tmp, /boot, and /home on different partitions, that is / and /boot on a 64G SSD and the rest on a 1TB SATA III.
The only directories I see as being beneficial on a separate partition are the "tmp" directories which can fill a drive rather quickly if not watched.
Again, this is also you're personal setup just as my personal setup ... but IMHO we should like not to ignore other setups.
No, this is my personal opinion not how my system is setup. I only ever use three partitions /(xfs), /boot(ext2) and swap.
Werner
-- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:49:10PM -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 06/20/2011 10:41 AM, Dr. Werner Fink pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
WHY? You don't need /usr on a separate partition anymore.
I'm aware that a separate /usr is only optional. Personal I do not use a separate /usr partition. Nevertheless I know customers using such /usr partition to minimize downtime due e.g. file system problems.
Wouldn't it be better to fix the real problem instead?
Hmmm ... one real solution would be that udevd would delay request for tools located below /usr (like some tools for alsam blutooth and other tools which are excuted before /usr is mounted) id not mounted. Also zypper could check if a directory touched by an rpm is located on a ro mounted partition to temporary remount this partition rw. The first approach would avoid the problems which Kay may has seen as udev maintainer in his bug reports I guess. The second approach would also support a ro mounted root file system with some mount points for the remaining rw data.
Hmmm, I'm not speaking about my personal system setup. On my own privat system I've /, /var, /tmp, /boot, and /home on different partitions, that is / and /boot on a 64G SSD and the rest on a 1TB SATA III.
The only directories I see as being beneficial on a separate partition are the "tmp" directories which can fill a drive rather quickly if not watched.
Again, this is also you're personal setup just as my personal setup ... but IMHO we should like not to ignore other setups.
No, this is my personal opinion not how my system is setup.
I only ever use three partitions /(xfs), /boot(ext2) and swap.
I also use ext2 for /boot and xfs for all other partitions. Nevertheless I prefer partitions with higher I/O load be located on a harddisk and the more static data (/ including /usr) to be located on the SSD. Indeed booting with SSD is extrem fast even with old SystemV init ;) Werner -- "Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool." -- Edward Burr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 20. Juni 2011 schrieb Dr. Werner Fink:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:49:10PM -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 06/20/2011 10:41 AM, Dr. Werner Fink pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
WHY? You don't need /usr on a separate partition anymore.
I'm aware that a separate /usr is only optional. Personal I do not use a separate /usr partition. Nevertheless I know customers using such /usr partition to minimize downtime due e.g. file system problems.
Wouldn't it be better to fix the real problem instead?
Hmmm ... one real solution would be that udevd would delay request for tools located below /usr (like some tools for alsam blutooth and other tools which are excuted before /usr is mounted) id not mounted. Also zypper could check if a directory touched by an rpm is located on a ro mounted partition to temporary remount this partition rw.
The first approach would avoid the problems which Kay may has seen as udev maintainer in his bug reports I guess.
The second approach would also support a ro mounted root file system with some mount points for the remaining rw data. Why make /usr special? I want all static data on / to be ro.
Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 09:43:08AM +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag, 20. Juni 2011 schrieb Dr. Werner Fink:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:49:10PM -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 06/20/2011 10:41 AM, Dr. Werner Fink pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
WHY? You don't need /usr on a separate partition anymore.
I'm aware that a separate /usr is only optional. Personal I do not use a separate /usr partition. Nevertheless I know customers using such /usr partition to minimize downtime due e.g. file system problems.
Wouldn't it be better to fix the real problem instead?
Hmmm ... one real solution would be that udevd would delay request for tools located below /usr (like some tools for alsam blutooth and other tools which are excuted before /usr is mounted) id not mounted. Also zypper could check if a directory touched by an rpm is located on a ro mounted partition to temporary remount this partition rw.
The first approach would avoid the problems which Kay may has seen as udev maintainer in his bug reports I guess.
The second approach would also support a ro mounted root file system with some mount points for the remaining rw data. Why make /usr special? I want all static data on / to be ro.
The you may run into trouble with confiuration data located at /etc that is if the system adminstrator want to change a confiuration, e.g. a new network setup. On the other hand an ro root file systems would be a great win. Also currently zypper AFAIK does not support ro mounted mount points of any ot the paths of an rpm. IMHO zypper should temporary remount rw all paths relying on mount points and touched during installation, update or modifying the file system(s). Werner -- "Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool." -- Edward Burr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Does this mean that IBM will enforce that /usr and other useful partitions will be only avaiable by using initramfs?
WHY? You don't need /usr on a separate partition anymore.
I'm aware that a separate /usr is only optional. Personal I do not use a separate /usr partition. Nevertheless I know customers using such /usr partition to minimize downtime due e.g. file system problems.
Wouldn't it be better to fix the real problem instead?
I understand what you are saying, and why, but having choices is a big deal in the *ix world and I don't like all the suggestions that thoose having a /usr partition are wrong. Isn't it up to them? // Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 19:41 +0200, Roger Karlsson wrote:
Does this mean that IBM will enforce that /usr and other useful partitions will be only avaiable by using initramfs?
WHY? You don't need /usr on a separate partition anymore.
I'm aware that a separate /usr is only optional. Personal I do not use a separate /usr partition. Nevertheless I know customers using such /usr partition to minimize downtime due e.g. file system problems.
Wouldn't it be better to fix the real problem instead?
I understand what you are saying, and why, but having choices is a big deal in the *ix world and I don't like all the suggestions that thoose having a /usr partition are wrong. Isn't it up to them?
Before more people blindly add more +1 to replies without even thinking, here is a try to summarize it: What we have: /usr separate doesn't work properly with today's tools and needs more and more hacks to make it work. It has the same issues with SYSV already, only very basic server-like setups setups work without problems. Like it or not, it doesn't reliably work today. How we can fix it today: The only sensible fix today is to mount /usr in the initramfs before the real system is brought up. Everything after that will just work without any of the earlier mentioned mentioned problems. What we really want: The only sensible future picture is to stop the insanity of splitting random tools from /usr to the same named directories in /. It just does not make any sense to continue that, and all stuff should move back to /usr where it belongs. What / was for ancient UNIX is the initramfs for Linux. There is no use case for / anymore, it just adds complexity, spreads stuff across many top-level directories, and all that for no good reason and no benefit these days. We want /usr, on whatever storage. We want read-only /usr, we want to share /usr across many boxes/containers/guests. But we don't want the mindless split between / and /usr. And we don't want to boot with only half of the system available. Again, nothing from the above is systemd specific. Please stop adding any more nonsense to this mail thread and start to think about the underlying problem first. Kay -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 09:55:46PM +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
Before more people blindly add more +1 to replies without even thinking, here is a try to summarize it:
What we have: /usr separate doesn't work properly with today's tools and needs more and more hacks to make it work. It has the same issues with SYSV already, only very basic server-like setups setups work without problems. Like it or not, it doesn't reliably work today.
How we can fix it today: The only sensible fix today is to mount /usr in the initramfs before the real system is brought up. Everything after that will just work without any of the earlier mentioned mentioned problems.
Why not adding dependcy rules for udev rules relying on /usr data and/or /usr tools. Then udevd could delay those rules upto the point where e.g. /usr is mounted. Those dependcy rules should follow the same scheme and rules as the LSB rules for the boot and runlevel scripts already well defined.
What we really want: The only sensible future picture is to stop the insanity of splitting random tools from /usr to the same named directories in /. It just does not make any sense to continue that, and all stuff should move back to /usr where it belongs. What / was for ancient UNIX is the initramfs for Linux. There is no use case for / anymore, it just adds complexity, spreads stuff across many top-level directories, and all that for no good reason and no benefit these days. We want /usr, on whatever storage. We want read-only /usr, we want to share /usr across many boxes/containers/guests. But we don't want the mindless split between / and /usr. And we don't want to boot with only half of the system available.
Again, nothing from the above is systemd specific. Please stop adding any more nonsense to this mail thread and start to think about the underlying problem first.
Werner -- "Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool." -- Edward Burr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Dr. Werner Fink -
Kay Sievers -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Roger Karlsson -
Stephan Kulow