Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 06:14 +0100, Raymond Wooninck a écrit :

On Sunday 02 February 2014 12:24:29 sfalken@opensuse.org wrote:

...

I could take one of them over, Raymond. Don't have any particular knowledge about either package, but I've got the time.

Hi Shawn,

Great. Thanks a lot. As discussed on IRC, I will transfer today the "ownership" of DRACUT to you on OBS and bugzilla.

Only package remaining is Plymouth and I guess that people rather see it disappear than to help out.

No, I don't want to see it disappear at all (since it has replaced all other boot splash alternative, for the good) but I don't have time to maintain it. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 04.02.2014 10:41, schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 06:14 +0100, Raymond Wooninck a écrit :

...

On Sunday 02 February 2014 12:24:29 sfalken@opensuse.org wrote:

...

I could take one of them over, Raymond. Don't have any particular knowledge about either package, but I've got the time.

Hi Shawn,

Great. Thanks a lot. As discussed on IRC, I will transfer today the "ownership" of DRACUT to you on OBS and bugzilla.

Only package remaining is Plymouth and I guess that people rather see it disappear than to help out.

No, I don't want to see it disappear at all (since it has replaced all other boot splash alternative, for the good) but I don't have time to maintain it.

How long does the average system nowadays take until X starts up? If there is a black screen for a few seconds, so what? That's the time the initrd takes to load if plymouth is in there anyways ;-)

since 13.1 it takes around 2 minutes until my X comes up on my desktop machine and nobody can (or want to) help/tell me why. But I agree it was not long for 12.3. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 4 February 2014 10:47, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

Am 04.02.2014 10:41, schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...

How long does the average system nowadays take until X starts up? If there is a black screen for a few seconds, so what? That's the time the initrd takes to load if plymouth is in there anyways ;-)

since 13.1 it takes around 2 minutes until my X comes up on my desktop machine and nobody can (or want to) help/tell me why. But I agree it was not long for 12.3.

Wolfgang

I'm rather torn on this topic myself - as one of the maintainers of our branding packages I want the distribution to look slick and a nice boot process is part of that experience. On the flipside, I own a machine that boots so fast, every time I change the branding package for Plymouth, I need to build a second version with enforced delays to purposefully slow the boot process down in order to test whether or not the changes I've made are working, because normally plymouth is finished and X is launching before my LCD has changed it's resolution from Grub2 to Plymouth.. so in my case, Plymouth is actually adding needless seconds to my boot process and causing more flickers than if it wasn't there But as wolfgangs reply shows, my situation is not universal. If someone steps up and maintains it, great Wolfgang - have you installed systemd-analyze and run "systemd-analyze blame" and "systemd-analyze plot > output.svg" to get a picture of what is taking so long on your boot? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:52:15 +0100 schrieb Frederic Crozat:

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 10:41 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

...

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 06:14 +0100, Raymond Wooninck a écrit :

...

On Sunday 02 February 2014 12:24:29 sfalken@opensuse.org wrote:

...

I could take one of them over, Raymond. Don't have any particular knowledge about either package, but I've got the time.

Hi Shawn,

Great. Thanks a lot. As discussed on IRC, I will transfer today the "ownership" of DRACUT to you on OBS and bugzilla.

Only package remaining is Plymouth and I guess that people rather see it disappear than to help out.

No, I don't want to see it disappear at all (since it has replaced all other boot splash alternative, for the good) but I don't have time to maintain it.

How long does the average system nowadays take until X starts up? If there is a black screen for a few seconds, so what? That's the time the initrd takes to load if plymouth is in there anyways ;-)

Plymouth also allows smooth transition (no flicker) between splash and display manager. And it can display a non frightening UI to request passphrase for encrypted disk.

displaying the non frightening (G)UI to request the passphrase seems (often) not to work in 13.1: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=851960 Regards, Dieter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 10:41 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

...

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 06:14 +0100, Raymond Wooninck a écrit :

...

On Sunday 02 February 2014 12:24:29 sfalken@opensuse.org wrote:

...

I could take one of them over, Raymond. Don't have any particular knowledge about either package, but I've got the time.

Hi Shawn,

Great. Thanks a lot. As discussed on IRC, I will transfer today the "ownership" of DRACUT to you on OBS and bugzilla.

Only package remaining is Plymouth and I guess that people rather see it disappear than to help out.

No, I don't want to see it disappear at all (since it has replaced all other boot splash alternative, for the good) but I don't have time to maintain it.

How long does the average system nowadays take until X starts up? If there is a black screen for a few seconds, so what? That's the time the initrd takes to load if plymouth is in there anyways ;-)

Plymouth also allows smooth transition (no flicker) between splash and display manager.

Ok, that sentence compares plymouth to other splash solutions but it makes no statement about the situation compared to a boot with no splash at all. Isn't it simply bootloader -> resolution switch -> black screen -> X rather than bootloader -> resolution switch -> fancy screen -> X

And it can display a non frightening UI to request passphrase for encrypted disk.

It could but it doesn't in 13.1 because it's broken. So plymouth gets disabled if root is encrypted and the initrd prompts in text mode. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 11:13 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 10:41 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

...

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 06:14 +0100, Raymond Wooninck a écrit :

...

On Sunday 02 February 2014 12:24:29 sfalken@opensuse.org wrote:

...

I could take one of them over, Raymond. Don't have any particular knowledge about either package, but I've got the time.

Hi Shawn,

Great. Thanks a lot. As discussed on IRC, I will transfer today the "ownership" of DRACUT to you on OBS and bugzilla.

Only package remaining is Plymouth and I guess that people rather see it disappear than to help out.

No, I don't want to see it disappear at all (since it has replaced all other boot splash alternative, for the good) but I don't have time to maintain it.

How long does the average system nowadays take until X starts up? If there is a black screen for a few seconds, so what? That's the time the initrd takes to load if plymouth is in there anyways ;-)

Plymouth also allows smooth transition (no flicker) between splash and display manager.

Ok, that sentence compares plymouth to other splash solutions but it makes no statement about the situation compared to a boot with no splash at all.

Isn't it simply bootloader -> resolution switch -> black screen -> X rather than bootloader -> resolution switch -> fancy screen -> X

Not everybody is lucky to have an SSD and a system booting in 5s.

...

And it can display a non frightening UI to request passphrase for encrypted disk.

It could but it doesn't in 13.1 because it's broken. So plymouth gets disabled if root is encrypted and the initrd prompts in text mode.

Strange, I'm still getting a passphrase prompt in plymouth on 13.1 on my system ;) -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 11:12 +0100, dieter a écrit :

Am Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:52:15 +0100 schrieb Frederic Crozat:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 10:41 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

...

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 06:14 +0100, Raymond Wooninck a écrit :

...

On Sunday 02 February 2014 12:24:29 sfalken@opensuse.org wrote:

...

I could take one of them over, Raymond. Don't have any particular knowledge about either package, but I've got the time.

Hi Shawn,

Great. Thanks a lot. As discussed on IRC, I will transfer today the "ownership" of DRACUT to you on OBS and bugzilla.

Only package remaining is Plymouth and I guess that people rather see it disappear than to help out.

No, I don't want to see it disappear at all (since it has replaced all other boot splash alternative, for the good) but I don't have time to maintain it.

How long does the average system nowadays take until X starts up? If there is a black screen for a few seconds, so what? That's the time the initrd takes to load if plymouth is in there anyways ;-)

Plymouth also allows smooth transition (no flicker) between splash and display manager. And it can display a non frightening UI to request passphrase for encrypted disk.

displaying the non frightening (G)UI to request the passphrase seems (often) not to work in 13.1: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=851960

Which is exactly why we need somebody to actively maintain plymouth.. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 11:13 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

...

Ok, that sentence compares plymouth to other splash solutions but it makes no statement about the situation compared to a boot with no splash at all.

Isn't it simply bootloader -> resolution switch -> black screen -> X rather than bootloader -> resolution switch -> fancy screen -> X

Not everybody is lucky to have an SSD and a system booting in 5s.

Are you saying systemd didn't make your system boot fast? ;-P Seriously, what big offenders in the boot time of a desktop installation are left? How many seconds are the pain threshold of staring at a black screen?

...

...

And it can display a non frightening UI to request passphrase for encrypted disk.

It could but it doesn't in 13.1 because it's broken. So plymouth gets disabled if root is encrypted and the initrd prompts in text mode.

Strange, I'm still getting a passphrase prompt in plymouth on 13.1 on my system ;)

Plymouth is only disabled if the passphrase is prompted in initrd. Normal system boot still uses plymouth as the race condition doesn't seem to appear so often there. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014, à 11:13 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

And it can display a non frightening UI to request passphrase for encrypted disk.

It could but it doesn't in 13.1 because it's broken. So plymouth gets disabled if root is encrypted and the initrd prompts in text mode.

FWIW, I'm using an encrypted /home partition (not root), and things work fine with plymouth. And I feel it'd be a regression to go back to asking the passphrase in a console. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 11:41 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 11:13 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

...

Ok, that sentence compares plymouth to other splash solutions but it makes no statement about the situation compared to a boot with no splash at all.

Isn't it simply bootloader -> resolution switch -> black screen -> X rather than bootloader -> resolution switch -> fancy screen -> X

Not everybody is lucky to have an SSD and a system booting in 5s.

Are you saying systemd didn't make your system boot fast? ;-P

As a Project (and Release) Manager and as somebody who has been contributing on Desktop Linux distributions for almost 15 years, I'm trying to not apply just my own feelings and stuff I'm seeing on my system as a general rule to take a decision. In that regard, even if I've recently switched to SDD on some of my systems, I also know a lot of people don't have SSD systems and usually have a boot time around 30s (to sometime one minute).

Seriously, what big offenders in the boot time of a desktop installation are left?

Disk access and slow CPU, usually, something we can't fix :(

How many seconds are the pain threshold of staring at a black screen?

For any regular user, if you don't see anything happening after 5s, something is wrong, I'd say (can't find studies on that matter, I'm speaking from memory there). -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 04 February 2014 10:41:15 Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 06:14 +0100, Raymond Wooninck a écrit :

...

On Sunday 02 February 2014 12:24:29 sfalken@opensuse.org wrote:

Only package remaining is Plymouth and I guess that people rather see it disappear than to help out.

No, I don't want to see it disappear at all (since it has replaced all other boot splash alternative, for the good) but I don't have time to maintain it.

To be honest, I also don't want to see it disappear. But sometimes a harsh statement is required to get attention. And it worked in this case, however as seems to be normal for this mailinglist, the discussion went into a different direction. :(

How long does the average system nowadays take until X starts up? If there is a black screen for a few seconds, so what? That's the time the initrd takes to load if plymouth is in there anyways ;-)

As already has been indicated, not everyone has super deluxe systems with high performance SATA and SSD drives. Let's also not forget why we implemented Plymouth. It was a long time request from our users to implement it in order to achieve a more seamless looking boot process from grub to login manager. We managed to integrate plymouth in 12.3 and it was received very well. by our users and also we got good reviews for it. Yes, Plymouth might not be 100% optimal for all possible configurations and we saw (and still see) issues with certain NVidia drivers and for some also using encryption does not always show the required login prompt. Unfortunately I was never able to reproduce the last issue, as that I don't have any LUKS or encryption setup on my small laptop. Ludwig is indicating that a black boot screen might be acceptable by our users, but the question arises then, what is going to establish that black boot screen ? I never tried it, but I guess with Plymouth disabled we will just have the systemd status messages scrolling over the screen. Is this really what we want to present to our users ? Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-02-04 04:47 (GMT-0500) Wolfgang Rosenauer composed:

since 13.1 it takes around 2 minutes until my X comes up on my desktop machine and nobody can (or want to) help/tell me why. But I agree it was not long for 12.3.

Is your installation pure 13.1? Are you aware cups can cause boot delay if newer? e.g. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=860394 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Raymond Wooninck wrote:

Ludwig is indicating that a black boot screen might be acceptable by our users, but the question arises then, what is going to establish that black boot screen ? I never tried it, but I guess with Plymouth disabled we will just have the systemd status messages scrolling over the screen. Is this really what we want to present to our users ?

With the quiet option the screen just stays black, you only see what initrd prints until a getty or xdm is started. With some cleverness in systemd it could even print something useful if it notices that some service takes extraordinarily long. I think it already does that in verbose mode. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 13:44 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

Raymond Wooninck wrote:

...

Ludwig is indicating that a black boot screen might be acceptable by our users, but the question arises then, what is going to establish that black boot screen ? I never tried it, but I guess with Plymouth disabled we will just have the systemd status messages scrolling over the screen. Is this really what we want to present to our users ?

With the quiet option the screen just stays black, you only see what initrd prints until a getty or xdm is started. With some cleverness in systemd it could even print something useful if it notices that some service takes extraordinarily long.

This part has been improved in upstream systemd

I think it already does that in verbose mode.

Or when you press esc and you are running plymouth ;) -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 13:54 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

In that regard, even if I've recently switched to SDD on some of my systems, I also know a lot of people don't have SSD systems and usually have a boot time around 30s (to sometime one minute).

Did you check on those systems what exactly is causing this? By default at least there shouldn't be much to start. So if those systems fail to get to X quickly maybe it's because systemd starts too much in parallel instead of looking at the critical path first.

Yes, and it is IO saturation and low cpu power.. Try booting an old Athlon or a netbook and you'll see :) -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-02-04 12:31, Frederic Crozat wrote:

In that regard, even if I've recently switched to SDD on some of my systems, I also know a lot of people don't have SSD systems and usually have a boot time around 30s (to sometime one minute).

Several minutes here (287834ms). Not a simple desktop, though. And no, I'm not complaining, I accept that time :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLw8dUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WD9wCePQ7pEr39VErRJV9h3mur8yUl 8+IAn2DDyJpg77/0hDJD+LLJ1elRLmU1 =Tk31 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 04.02.2014 10:47, schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:

since 13.1 it takes around 2 minutes until my X comes up on my desktop machine and nobody can (or want to) help/tell me why. But I agree it was not long for 12.3.

mv /var/log/journal /var/log/journal.disabled && reboot -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 17:21 +0100, Olaf Hering a écrit :

On Tue, Feb 04, Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Strange, I'm still getting a passphrase prompt in plymouth on 13.1 on my system ;)

Did you ever try to execute the error paths? bnc#848220 went from "have to wait a few minutes until timeout" to "boot hangs forever" with the updates released in the last 4 weeks. And thats even with plymouth uninstalled.

Well, if there are issues when plymouth is uninstalled, we can't blame plymouth..

Also, do you consider the passphrase prompt "sane"? I mean its both misplaced on screen (lower right part of screen) and oddly named (whole /etc/crypttab line dumped to the screen).

That means nobody cared enough to fix the branding package, I'd say.. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 février 2014 à 18:11 +0100, Richard Brown a écrit :

On 4 February 2014 17:25, Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

...

Also, do you consider the passphrase prompt "sane"? I mean its both misplaced on screen (lower right part of screen) and oddly named (whole /etc/crypttab line dumped to the screen).

That means nobody cared enough to fix the branding package, I'd say..

Excuse me, I cared :)

The prompt appearing on 'lower right part of the screen' is news to me, if someone can point me in the direction of a bug report I'll certainly take a look at it - On all of my test machines, the prompt is in the lower center, as it should be

The whole /etc/crypttab line being dumped appears (as far as I could find out) be an upstream plymouth 'feature' (as in, something I could not find a way of fixing), but I tried; I'll admit to taking my foot off the accelerator trying to fix this when I realised that full disk encryption didn't use the pretty plymouth prompt, as my logic was that most people hitting the horrifically long text in the branded prompt would have much shorter /etc/crypttab lines (eg /dev/sda2 vs /dev/good/lord/this/is/a/long/device/id)

I may have a flaw in my logic, but it certainly isn't due to a lack of caring, far from it.

I'll fill a bug report with some screenshots ;) -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org