[opensuse-factory] 'incomplete pattern' should be ok
Hi. I like the system with patterns, it is quiet a nice thing and withing YaST it works perfect. Unfortunately, if you try to delete some packages on rug, it very often 'suggests' to uninstall the whole pattern, even though you would say everything could work without this package. you can delete the package without any problems using YaSY. Something new or something only I see? some misconfiguration on my side? Or a bug? (nah.. that can not be) Do you need some specific packages when this happen in case I create a bugreport? Dominique --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Dominique Leuenberger
Hi.
I like the system with patterns, it is quiet a nice thing and withing YaST it works perfect.
Unfortunately, if you try to delete some packages on rug, it very often 'suggests' to uninstall the whole pattern, even though you would say everything could work without this package.
Patterns are used for grouping of packages (and patterns). This grouping is accomplished by dependencies, either Requires (must) or Recommends (should). Installing a pattern means "honor its dependencies". So removing a package required by an installed pattern will break this dependency. YaST, being an interactive tool, should give you a warning. rug, being a batch tool, will also de-install the pattern in order to maintain sane dependencies of installed objects.
you can delete the package without any problems using YaSY.
Something new or something only I see? some misconfiguration on my side? Or a bug? (nah.. that can not be)
De-installing patterns is currently not fully defined. What should "remove this pattern" mean ? - just remove the pattern in order to lift the dependencies ? or - remove the pattern and all its dependencies (because the whole component represented by the pattern in unwanted ? And, no, we don't want to ask the user via a popup every time. But maybe there is no other solution ...
Do you need some specific packages when this happen in case I create a bugreport?
Just post some details to the mailing list. Its certainly worth discussing in public. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Mandag 15 januar 2007 11:50 skrev Klaus Kaempf:
Patterns are used for grouping of packages (and patterns). This grouping is accomplished by dependencies, either Requires (must) or Recommends (should).
Installing a pattern means "honor its dependencies". So removing a package required by an installed pattern will break this dependency. YaST, being an interactive tool, should give you a warning. rug, being a batch tool, will also de-install the pattern in order to maintain sane dependencies of installed objects.
This is certainly one of the bigger, if not the biggest, issue with 10.2. A couple of examples: I installed from DVD5, when I wanted to remove RealPlayer I got a lot of conflicts with the other non-oss stuff, I eventually found out that I could solve the problem by removing the non-oss pattern. To me it makes absolutely no sense that RealPlayer should require Java. And I'm thinking maybe the costs of patterns outweigh the benefits. The other day I wanted to mess with zeroconf, so I tried installing avahi-msdnresponder-stuff, since the zeroconf-kio-slave said no daemon was running I wanted to remove it again and try using the "real" mdnsresponder, to see if it worked better. This was impossible however, since all of a sudden removing avahi would mean removing kdebase-ksysguard and loads of other stuff with absolutely no connection with avahi. Apparently avahi is not in any pattern, so it most be some avahi-deps that are tied into something. I thought it might be libzypp doing some strange resolving, but smart also wants to remove 25-30 packages in order to remove avahi. Many of them essential stuff. For now I've just let it be. But I can think of no other solution than a) removing all patterns or b) ignoring all the conflicts. Neither is particularly satisfying. I wonder if the patterns could be made to only have effect when being installed, but with no (pattern) requirements being honoured when removing individual packages - guess it would be tricky. Or how about a disable-patterns-switch? I'm also hearing n00bs complaining about dependency conflcts in forums, of course their error descriptions aren't very good, but it smells like patterns causing problems. Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Martin Schlander
I installed from DVD5, when I wanted to remove RealPlayer I got a lot of conflicts with the other non-oss stuff, I eventually found out that I could solve the problem by removing the non-oss pattern. To me it makes absolutely no sense that RealPlayer should require Java. And I'm thinking maybe the costs of patterns outweigh the benefits.
From your description, it looks as if the non-oss pattern has a hard requirement to RealPlayer. It should be a weak dependency instead. I'd consider this a bug.
The other day I wanted to mess with zeroconf, so I tried installing avahi-msdnresponder-stuff, since the zeroconf-kio-slave said no daemon was running I wanted to remove it again and try using the "real" mdnsresponder, to see if it worked better. This was impossible however, since all of a sudden removing avahi would mean removing kdebase-ksysguard and loads of other stuff with absolutely no connection with avahi. Apparently avahi is not in any pattern, so it most be some avahi-deps that are tied into something.
Please file a bug report for such things.
I thought it might be libzypp doing some strange resolving, but smart also wants to remove 25-30 packages in order to remove avahi. Many of them essential stuff.
;-} smart doesn't know anything about pattern. So this is certainly an example of 'package dependency hell' we'd like to address in the future.
For now I've just let it be. But I can think of no other solution than a) removing all patterns or b) ignoring all the conflicts. Neither is particularly satisfying.
I wonder if the patterns could be made to only have effect when being installed, but with no (pattern) requirements being honoured when removing individual packages - guess it would be tricky.
Or how about a disable-patterns-switch?
I do not know either but I'm highly interested in any suggestions.
I'm also hearing n00bs complaining about dependency conflcts in forums, of course their error descriptions aren't very good, but it smells like patterns causing problems.
A lot of current pattern and package dependencies are certainly too strong. The question is, where to start to make them weaker without risking an 'unusable' system. Of course, the definition of 'unusable' is a different one for everybody ... Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
De-installing patterns is currently not fully defined. What should "remove this pattern" mean ? - just remove the pattern in order to lift the dependencies ? or - remove the pattern and all its dependencies (because the whole component represented by the pattern in unwanted ?
Just post some details to the mailing list. Its certainly worth discussing in public.
Ok, here's another problem. I've been on the phone to a friend, trying to get rid of zmd after he complained about a slow system after boot. Deselecting the enterprise and selecting the openSUSE pattern works fine during system install, but zmd is more stubborn later. I would have expected this pattern change to have the same effect later. There was a reboot too. I assume both patterns ended up installed, so I suggested he hightlight the enterprise pattern and explicitly bin the 3 packages of it on the right side in the package list, with disastrous results. Immediately before he switched installation source from dvdrom drive to /disk/muchfaster/dvd.iso (being the obvious copy of the DVD image) in yast->installation sources. Success here. This may or may not be relevant. On clicking accept on binning the above 3 zmd-related packages, a popup complains about some violation involving product suse something. There is only one product, dvd in drive and dvd-copy on disk. Resolutions offered include cancel, ignore, delete. I told him not to delete product suse linux, and I doubt he'd have been that stupid, I suggested to cancel. Anyway, the thing then proceeds to clean out the whole system, deleting KDE and whatnot packages. Ooooops! Clicking abort, the popup offers cancel and continue. Regardless of choice, the result is keep-on-cleaning-out-the-whole-disk. Two bugs here, one very serious, one annoying. My friend's words at that point are not for polite company. He is not a stupid computer user, so whatever it is needs to be fixed. Updates as of 13 Jan were installed. I have the yast logs, but didn't see it myself. Bugzilla? The above description is about as good as I could make it. I should add that the system wasn't a clean install but an upgrade from 9.2(?), which hasn't however shown any other problems at system level. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Volker Kuhlmann
Immediately before he switched installation source from dvdrom drive to /disk/muchfaster/dvd.iso (being the obvious copy of the DVD image) in yast->installation sources. Success here. This may or may not be relevant.
No, I dont think this is relevant.
On clicking accept on binning the above 3 zmd-related packages, a popup complains about some violation involving product suse something.
De-installing packages is not enough, you have to de-install the 'enterprise package management' pattern. The current dependencies are, well, unfortunate. The product requires a package management pattern (either 'opensuse' or 'enterprise') which in turn requires packages. By deleting the zmd packages, the pattern->package dependencies are broken resulting in de-installation of the pattern. This in turn breaks the product->pattern dependency.
[...]
I have the yast logs, but didn't see it myself. Bugzilla?
Yes, please report via bugzilla. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Dominique Leuenberger -
Klaus Kaempf -
Martin Schlander -
Volker Kuhlmann