[opensuse-factory] cdrecord licensing is NOT RESOLVED
Hi,Someone here said that the licensing issues have been resolved. I cannot see how: nothing has changed.Schily will of course claim they *never existed*. But as long as there is *some doubt*, I consider shipping compiled cdrecord a certain legal *risk*. It doesn't need to be a proven copyright violation to be a risk; so Joergs claims are not sufficient for me. Apparently, RedHat, Debian etc. also still see this issue persist. Be careful with anything Joerg claims. He likes citing himself (e.g. his own "OSSCC" - yes, that is him, too!) and as you have seen at the same time claims that Eben Moglen backs his view and calls him a liar. To him, anything supporting his claims is sound and anything else thus must be a lie. And of course, calling someone a liar then is a fact, not an insult, to him?!? But actually none of his claims have been supported by a court so far either. The risk thus persists! As far as I can tell, the key point is what you consider to be a "derivative work" and what not.Schily says that linking a library and using header files only makes a "collective work", and thus he licence combinations are valid. There is little doubt that a "collective work" (such as SuSE as a whole) can contain both CDDL and GPL code. However, most people consider linking GPL code to form a "derivative work" (after all, this is why the LGPL was created - with Joergs interpretation, LGPL and GPL would be the same!). As far as I can tell, Joerg would concur that building a "derivative work" with GPL and CDDL breaks the licensing. His "workaround" is denying that it it a "derivative work" at all, but that it is a "collective work". Neither interpretation was so far tested in a court as far as I can tell. And of course I did not measure the term "most" in the previous sentence, nor am I a lawyer. But basically when you aren't 100% sure that cdrtools entirely qualifies as "collective work", you cannot distribute *compiled* versions. (The derived vs. collective work part is a compile time issue; distributing the uncompiled source code should be okay). We need to be *really careful* here, and it seems best to go the safe way and NOT ship cdrecord. Sooner or later, he will have a go at us then, call us liars, claims that we broke his software, slandered his name as author, introduced bugs and so on. Like he has done to everyone else so far! You already have him seen attack just about everyone on this list the last weeks; are you sure you want to have him as upstream author? I'd not be willing to take care of a cdrecord package given an upstream this hostile. And since there is no other upstream author, there is noone else to talk to. Schily has also shown very unwilling to adopt cdrecord to the users; instead the users are expected to adopt to cdrecord. For example, he has always told people to use the SCSI emulation and SCSI-like device ids instead of accepting that some users prefer referencing devices by their unix path name such as /dev/hda in particular for non-SCSI devices. From a user perspective this makes a lot of sense to use the same device name for both mounting and writing CDs. If I understood the early fights correctly, such patches have in fact been one of the things that Schily hated about Debian and wodim. Wodim has worked correctly for me every single time. (I don't use blueray though)And the future solution should be libburnia, which is actively developed and seems to have a sane upstream instead of a madm^W^W Schily. So I see no need at all to go the risky way of "shipping" cdrecord. Wodim is okay as an interim solution, and libburnia is the way to go on the long run!There is a cdrecord-like wrapper in libburnia called "cdrskin" that is meant to serve as drop-in replacement for the "cdrecord" command. Regards,Ray -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi,
Hi,Someone here said that the licensing issues have been resolved.
Could there please be a an opensuse-legal list or such to which we can expell those discussions and perhaps have one or actual two lawyers on it instead of us laymen discussing what we think might be? This is a list for the FACTORY distribution to discuss where it's going, alert others of news and problems on it, and solve issues in this development stream of openSUSE. This list is NOT for legal discussions, but those surely should happen somewhere - not on a development list, though. Is there a legal list, or if not, can it please be created and those discussions be moved there? Thanks! Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 13 February 2011, KaiRo - Robert Kaiser wrote:
Hi,
Hi,Someone here said that the licensing issues have been resolved.
Could there please be a an opensuse-legal list or such to which we can expell those discussions and perhaps have one or actual two lawyers on it instead of us laymen discussing what we think might be?
This is a list for the FACTORY distribution to discuss where it's going, alert others of news and problems on it, and solve issues in this development stream of openSUSE.
This list is NOT for legal discussions, but those surely should happen somewhere - not on a development list, though.
Is there a legal list, or if not, can it please be created and those discussions be moved there?
+1 Mike -- Powered by SuSE 11.0 Kernel 2.6.25 KDE 3.5 Kmail 1.9 2:17pm up 20:51, 3 users, load average: 0.41, 0.61, 0.57 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hello Robert,I do agree with you that this is an issue only lawyers can actually decide.
This is a list for the FACTORY distribution to discuss where it's going, alert others of news and problems on it, and solve issues in this development stream of openSUSE.
... but since cdrtools is now in factory again - without the legal issues resolve that caused removal from openSuSE before - this does affect the FACTORY distribution. When the cdrtools binaries cannot be distributed legally, they also cannot be distributed as part of factory.This is an issue that needs to be resolved BEFORE bringing the software here. That cdrecord has more features than wodim (blue-ray) is nice, but when we do not agree with Schilys interpretation of "derived work" and "collective work", we still may not offer compiled versions, even when the software is better! Just as we can't include Microsoft Internet Explorer, even if we consider it to be worthy and it would run on Linux if there is a licensing issue. So until a suse lawyer we trust (I don't think we can trust Schilys lawyers) tells us cdrecord is good, we should probably remove it until then. Just like the other distributions did. Regards,Ray -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:20:58 +0100
Ray Cast
... but since cdrtools is now in factory again
No, it's not AFAICT: susi:~ # zypper search -s cdrtools Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... S | Name | Type | Version | Arch | Repository --+------------------------+---------+------------+--------+--------------- i | cdrkit-cdrtools-compat | package | 1.1.10-3.3 | x86_64 | factory-oss i | cdrkit-cdrtools-compat | package | 1.1.10-3.3 | x86_64 | fty-tested-oss v | cdrkit-cdrtools-compat | package | 1.1.10-3.3 | i586 | factory-oss v | cdrkit-cdrtools-compat | package | 1.1.10-3.3 | i586 | fty-tested-oss -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Ray Cast schrieb:
Hello Robert,I do agree with you that this is an issue only lawyers can actually decide.
So, then let's bring it to some place where lawyers discuss it but keep it out of the developers list, as we won't be able to solve it.
... but since cdrtools is now in factory again
AFAIK it's not in Factory. It's available somewhere in OBS, and that's OK, but adding to Factory would need a license review from Novell lawyers, from what I heard. And AFAIK, that hasn't happened.
So until a suse lawyer we trust [...] tells us cdrecord is good, we should probably remove it until then. Just like the other distributions did.
As I said once before, it might even be a good idea to ship neither cdrtools nor wodim until there was a review by Novell lawyers. Still, we won't solve license questions or do legal reviews with developer or software tester arguments, and this group is for those groups only. Here this discussion is - other than the basic "this needs legal review" - nothing other than disturbing noise. So, as said before, please let's take this to a legal group, where hopefully actual lawyers are involved and let's take those things into legal review, where it hopefully can be be resolved in some way. And let's get back to making actual *software* work and testing here. There's a lot more to a good Linux distro than the ancient art of writing to optical physical media, after all. Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2011-02-13 at 15:46 +0100, KaiRo - Robert Kaiser wrote:
So, then let's bring it to some place where lawyers discuss it but keep it out of the developers list, as we won't be able to solve it.
Lawyers will not write on mail lists, even less "on the record". AFAIK, you pay them, they talk to you, in private. It is Novell lawyers who have to be asked, and let them decide. More talk by us is irrelevant - except to chat if we take the risk or not, here or in the project mail list. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk1YWt8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VT2wCfXTIXkn99ExcFdErFcS0Qs69d Kz8AnipojG9+Um3TQT/NEvhpWC6VS+MK =U4if -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
"Carlos E. R."
Lawyers will not write on mail lists, even less "on the record". AFAIK, you pay them, they talk to you, in private.
They will do if you ask them to do so. Everybody who did ever hire a lawyer knows that lawyers of course will give you useful explanations on why they believe that their interpretation is correct and they will usually prove this with pointers to the related parts of the law and to related parts of a contract or license.
It is Novell lawyers who have to be asked, and let them decide. More talk by us is irrelevant - except to chat if we take the risk or not, here or in the project mail list.
Up to now, the only distro that ever asked lawyers was Sun for the Solaris distro. The result was that there of course is no legal problem with cdrtools. It may be important to mention here that Sun at the same time stopped distributing "libcdio" because of legal problems. It is obvious that Sun made decisions based on consultation from lawyers, one pro (for cdrtools) and one against (for libcdio). Suse however still seems to distribute "libcdio" even though the existence of legal problems with libcdio have been published in 2007 already. For cdrtools, we have no other expression from lawyers than the OK from "Sun legal" that has been recently confirmed by "Oracle Legal". I may need to repeat that Debian has absolutely no legal verification for their claims, so what Debian does must be seen as a diffamation campaign against a OSS project. If Suse would tell people that cdrtools is not distributed because of "license problems" and there would not be a legal verification that could be commented by other lawyers at the same time, it could be interpreted as if Suse would join the diffamation campaign that has been initiated by Debian. There are unfortunately several people who write to this list and who just repeat unproven claims that have been distributed by Debian. I encourage anyone on this list to check facts before sending a new comment. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Feb 14, 11 17:51:31 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
It is Novell lawyers who have to be asked, and let them decide. More talk by us is irrelevant - except to chat if we take the risk or not, here or in the project mail list.
I'll create an opensuse mailing list for legal discussions, with the intend to - attract both lawyers, and interested developers and with the intend to offer a place where 'we(*)' do not annoy too many other developers not interested in such a dry topic. How about that? cheers, JW- PS: (*) we, because I count myself as 'interested'.
Up to now, the only distro that ever asked lawyers was Sun for the Solaris distro.
I'll comment on the impression this type of statement gives me, as soon as we have our own list. cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Le 14/02/2011 18:36, Juergen Weigert a écrit :
I'll create an opensuse mailing list for legal discussions, with the intend to - attract both lawyers, and interested developers (...)
why not, but ask first the board. there is a work in progress to build a legal team or some sort of. I'm not part of this work, but would like to join as soon as it's usefull This is obviously part of the foundation building, long awaited (and I hope soon to be done) one can subscribe the foundation list :-) (but not yet to talk about licences) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Juergen Weigert schrieb:
I'll create an opensuse mailing list for legal discussions, with the intend to - attract both lawyers, and interested developers and with the intend to offer a place where 'we(*)' do not annoy too many other developers not interested in such a dry topic. How about that?
That sounds good to me for sure (and I'll probably subscribe to it on gmane once it's avail there to not pollute my inbox but be able to follow/skim the discussions). Having such a list has worked well at OpenStreetMap, and I think it can also be helpful here. Thanks, Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Le 14/02/2011 18:48, Robert Kaiser a écrit :
Having such a list has worked well at OpenStreetMap, and I think it can also be helpful here.
there is one for debian... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
jdd
Le 14/02/2011 18:48, Robert Kaiser a écrit :
Having such a list has worked well at OpenStreetMap, and I think it can also be helpful here.
there is one for debian...
I have never seen any lawyer on the debian list and as a result, this debian list is full of claims from laymen that do not help. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/14/2011 12:51 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
jdd
wrote: Le 14/02/2011 18:48, Robert Kaiser a écrit :
Having such a list has worked well at OpenStreetMap, and I think it can also be helpful here.
there is one for debian...
I have never seen any lawyer on the debian list and as a result, this debian list is full of claims from laymen that do not help.
Kind of like this one. Take it elsewhere and leave the rest of us in peace. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1Za8sACgkQLPWxlyuTD7L6egCeNTnpwG9Up6AGEjtXu5VIyaAk BW0AnAxK4Goya7l8GjvGixvPHS/oQzeE =D3rM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/14/2011 12:36 PM, Juergen Weigert wrote:
On Feb 14, 11 17:51:31 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
It is Novell lawyers who have to be asked, and let them decide. More talk by us is irrelevant - except to chat if we take the risk or not, here or in the project mail list.
I'll create an opensuse mailing list for legal discussions, with the intend to - attract both lawyers, and interested developers and with the intend to offer a place where 'we(*)' do not annoy too many other developers not interested in such a dry topic. How about that?
Please do. The endless license discussions have significantly lowered the signal-noise ratio of the list for me. - -Jeff
cheers, JW-
PS: (*) we, because I count myself as 'interested'.
Up to now, the only distro that ever asked lawyers was Sun for the Solaris distro.
I'll comment on the impression this type of statement gives me, as soon as we have our own list.
cheers, JW-
- -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1ZavwACgkQLPWxlyuTD7IDbgCfct/knr0XNMejCJCAvVPwlTJh 0EQAn1HOfZmto2nDvCcBqe7V4BylYfoB =Nq+p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 13 February 2011 12:47:43 KaiRo - Robert Kaiser wrote:
Hi,
Hi,Someone here said that the licensing issues have been resolved.
Could there please be a an opensuse-legal list or such to which we can expell those discussions and perhaps have one or actual two lawyers on it instead of us laymen discussing what we think might be?
This is a list for the FACTORY distribution to discuss where it's going, alert others of news and problems on it, and solve issues in this development stream of openSUSE.
This list is NOT for legal discussions, but those surely should happen somewhere - not on a development list, though.
Is there a legal list, or if not, can it please be created and those discussions be moved there?
Thanks!
Robert Kaiser
+1 i am getting sick of any time anyone mentions cdrkit or cdrecord in jumps a certain person and causes havoc just for the pure fun of it because the rest of the world does not agree with his views . Pete -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 15:42 up 2 days 16:39, 4 users, load average: 0.41, 0.48, 0.36 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi,
Hi,Someone here said that the licensing issues have been resolved.
Could there please be a an opensuse-legal list or such to which we can expell those discussions and perhaps have one or actual two lawyers on it instead of us laymen discussing what we think might be? Are lawyers be involved in real life between our friend and any linux distributors ?
This is a list for the FACTORY distribution to discuss where it's going, alert others of news and problems on it, and solve issues in this development stream of openSUSE. +1, but development and legal issues _can_ have an impact on distributing software (libdvdcss et al)
This list is NOT for legal discussions, but those surely should happen somewhere - not on a development list, though. +10
Is there a legal list, or if not, can it please be created and those discussions be moved there? -100 noone will use such a list because it's much more comfortable to spread
Am Sonntag 13 Februar 2011 schrieb KaiRo - Robert Kaiser: these everlasting, annoying and useless threads on _this_ and other existing mailing lists.
Thanks!
You're welcome.
Robert Kaiser
For the closing (hopefully) of this and these others "license/legal" threads: openSUSE doesn't ship our friend's software, right? so a licensing issue mustn't be RESOLVED. Noone is forced to use this _not_ _distributed_ software. So, all having problems _with_ the alternative software have to file a bug against _the distribution they use_ If the so called maintainer of software created by him but forked in many ways claims that these forks are not _his_ but others work, he's RIGHT! But noone should care about this. Please all, ignore. Regards, Hans-Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Le 13/02/2011 13:25, Ray Cast a écrit :
Hi,Someone here said that the licensing issues have been resolved.
nobody say that. For now cdrecod is *not* shipped with openSUSE, only available from OBS (don't know if that makes any differences). anyway we need a working dvd/BD writer. I would be glad to have a report of the development status of other solutions (please send them to me as PM, I will report on the wiki if necessary). jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
jdd
Le 13/02/2011 13:25, Ray Cast a écrit :
Hi,Someone here said that the licensing issues have been resolved.
nobody say that. For now cdrecod is *not* shipped with openSUSE, only available from OBS (don't know if that makes any differences).
Nobody did ever verify a license issue in cdrtools. On the other side, the legality of cdrkit is questionable and libcdio has been banned from Solaris in 2006 because of license problems while Solaris contains cdrtools (after it's license has teen reviewed by the Sun legal department) but not cdrkit..... Vcdimager is publishing an important piece of code from Heiko Eißfeldt claiming it is GPL, but this piece of code was never published under GPL. IIRC, Suse still distributes cdrkit, libcdio and vcdimager..... Legality does not seem to be the motor for related decisions for a Suse distro.
anyway we need a working dvd/BD writer.
I would be glad to have a report of the development status of other solutions (please send them to me as PM, I will report on the wiki if necessary).
I would be glad if more forced and unhappy "cdrkit" users realise that they are just a victim of a sleaze campaign from Debian against the cdrtools project. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Carlos E. R.
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Hans-Peter Holler
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jdd
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Jeff Mahoney
-
Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de
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Juergen Weigert
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KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
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Mike
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Peter Nikolic
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Ray Cast
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Robert Kaiser
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Stefan Seyfried