[opensuse-factory] Some questions about Tumbleweed (and its future metamorphosed entity - oS-42) - openSUSE Factory

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[opensuse-factory] Some questions about Tumbleweed (and its future metamorphosed entity - oS-42)

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Basil Chupin

10 Jul 2015 10 Jul '15

07:59

I installed Tumbleweed on a laptop (Lenovo T530) using the release 20150123, and TW has been updated regularly with the latest one performed a day ago. I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42. Question 1. I have always used KDE as my preferred desktop but noticed that a while back a wannabe-Window10-lookalike version called Plasma5 came on the scene and was automatically installed in Tumbleweed. However, while there is the option to boot into either KDE and Plasma5 (as well as a couple other DEs - XFCE and something called Custom, whatever that is!), I cannot tell the difference between KDE and the Plasma5 environments. Is this correct and is this the intended result when Plasma5 was foisted on Tumbleweed? Question 2. In the normal KDE environment - such as in oS 13.2 - I create 8 virtual desktops ("panels" if you like, or whatever) and I have a different wallpaper for each of these virtual desktops. I now cannot achieve having different wallpapers in Tumbleweed with this Plasma-Blasta - one wallpaper is assigned to all the desktops. Is this the norm or is there some secret tweak that one needs to make in order to achieve what I want (different images for each of the 8 desktops)? Question 3. What has happened to the nice widgets/icons/whatever which are used in oS 13.2 but which are now simple-looking "stick figures" in Tumbleweed's Plasma-Blasta? Are these "stick figures" going to get some fleshing so as to look like something not resembling a child's drawing or is this the way of the future for oS 42? Question 4. While I have never been a fan of anything other than KDE desktop environment I thought that I would try out GNOME DE now that Plasma-Blasta look like a Windows10 wannabe. However, I cannot install the Gnome files. I start up YaST and try and install the Gnome rpms - but nothing happens and I am stuck with something called KDE which is no longer KDE but looks and acts exactly as Plasma-Blasta (although XFCE is still available at boot-up time). So, what is a girl supposed to do when GNOME desktop is required for look-see purposes? Question 5. Plasma-Blasta has drastically altered the various menus form the way the menus are shown in the real KDE desktop environment. The menus in a way are a hybrid between XFCE and something which the cat dragged in - but anyway..... Question: will this way of presenting the various menus now becoming permanent and is what will be in oS 42 or are there plans to create sensible menus and bring back some logic into their contents? BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.6 & kernel 4.1.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Richard Brown

10 Jul 10 Jul

09:22

On 10 July 2015 at 09:59, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I installed Tumbleweed on a laptop (Lenovo T530) using the release 20150123, and TW has been updated regularly with the latest one performed a day ago.

I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42.

It will not. Tumbleweed and Leap are two different distributions Tumbleweed - Rolling Release - Everything updated all the time Leap - Stable Release - Patches all the time, version updates every release, consisting of sources from both SUSE Linux Enterprise and the openSUSE Community

...

Question 1.

I have always used KDE as my preferred desktop but noticed that a while back a wannabe-Window10-lookalike version called Plasma5 came on the scene and was automatically installed in Tumbleweed.

However, while there is the option to boot into either KDE and Plasma5 (as well as a couple other DEs - XFCE and something called Custom, whatever that is!), I cannot tell the difference between KDE and the Plasma5 environments.

Is this correct and is this the intended result when Plasma5 was foisted on Tumbleweed?

Correct, our KDE team decided to remove KDE 4 and replace it with Plasma 5 in Tumbleweed I do not know what they intend to put into Leap 42.1, but I assume it will be Plasma 5

...

Question 2.

In the normal KDE environment - such as in oS 13.2 - I create 8 virtual desktops ("panels" if you like, or whatever) and I have a different wallpaper for each of these virtual desktops.

I now cannot achieve having different wallpapers in Tumbleweed with this Plasma-Blasta - one wallpaper is assigned to all the desktops.

Is this the norm or is there some secret tweak that one needs to make in order to achieve what I want (different images for each of the 8 desktops)?

I think this is a question that's best left to the KDE team. They can answer here, but might be better to try and reach out to them at opensuse-kde@opensuse.org or in the opensuse-kde IRC channel

...

Question 3.

What has happened to the nice widgets/icons/whatever which are used in oS 13.2 but which are now simple-looking "stick figures" in Tumbleweed's Plasma-Blasta?

Are these "stick figures" going to get some fleshing so as to look like something not resembling a child's drawing or is this the way of the future for oS 42?

See my answer to Question 2

...

Question 4.

While I have never been a fan of anything other than KDE desktop environment I thought that I would try out GNOME DE now that Plasma-Blasta look like a Windows10 wannabe.

However, I cannot install the Gnome files. I start up YaST and try and install the Gnome rpms - but nothing happens and I am stuck with something called KDE which is no longer KDE but looks and acts exactly as Plasma-Blasta (although XFCE is still available at boot-up time).

So, what is a girl supposed to do when GNOME desktop is required for look-see purposes?

I think you're doing something wrong - I know lots of people who install multiple desktop environments in openSUSE

...

Question 5.

Plasma-Blasta has drastically altered the various menus form the way the menus are shown in the real KDE desktop environment. The menus in a way are a hybrid between XFCE and something which the cat dragged in - but anyway.....

Question: will this way of presenting the various menus now becoming permanent and is what will be in oS 42 or are there plans to create sensible menus and bring back some logic into their contents?

See my answer to Question 2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13 Jul 13 Jul

06:24

On 10/07/15 19:22, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 10 July 2015 at 09:59, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
I installed Tumbleweed on a laptop (Lenovo T530) using the release 20150123, and TW has been updated regularly with the latest one performed a day ago.

I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42. It will not. Tumbleweed and Leap are two different distributions

Ce?! Not what I deduced from what Stephan Kulow wrote recently. (I think I said this before, "some into the forest, some for the tinder.....".) Can we have a clear story on this at some time please.

...

Tumbleweed - Rolling Release - Everything updated all the time Leap - Stable Release - Patches all the time, version updates every release, consisting of sources from both SUSE Linux Enterprise and the openSUSE Community

...
Question 1.

I have always used KDE as my preferred desktop but noticed that a while back a wannabe-Window10-lookalike version called Plasma5 came on the scene and was automatically installed in Tumbleweed.

However, while there is the option to boot into either KDE and Plasma5 (as well as a couple other DEs - XFCE and something called Custom, whatever that is!), I cannot tell the difference between KDE and the Plasma5 environments.

Is this correct and is this the intended result when Plasma5 was foisted on Tumbleweed? Correct, our KDE team decided to remove KDE 4 and replace it with Plasma 5 in Tumbleweed

I do not know what they intend to put into Leap 42.1, but I assume it will be Plasma 5

Oh dear.....

...

Question 2.

In the normal KDE environment - such as in oS 13.2 - I create 8 virtual desktops ("panels" if you like, or whatever) and I have a different wallpaper for each of these virtual desktops.

I now cannot achieve having different wallpapers in Tumbleweed with this Plasma-Blasta - one wallpaper is assigned to all the desktops.

Is this the norm or is there some secret tweak that one needs to make in order to achieve what I want (different images for each of the 8 desktops)? I think this is a question that's best left to the KDE team. They can answer here, but might be better to try and reach out to them at opensuse-kde@opensuse.org or in the opensuse-kde IRC channel

I understand your reply but, please forgive me, as the "Chairman of the Board", aren't you in the position to know what is being planned for the distribution, have some say in what it will include and in which direction it should go?

...

Question 3.

What has happened to the nice widgets/icons/whatever which are used in oS 13.2 but which are now simple-looking "stick figures" in Tumbleweed's Plasma-Blasta?

Are these "stick figures" going to get some fleshing so as to look like something not resembling a child's drawing or is this the way of the future for oS 42? See my answer to Question 2

...
Question 4.

While I have never been a fan of anything other than KDE desktop environment I thought that I would try out GNOME DE now that Plasma-Blasta look like a Windows10 wannabe.

However, I cannot install the Gnome files. I start up YaST and try and install the Gnome rpms - but nothing happens and I am stuck with something called KDE which is no longer KDE but looks and acts exactly as Plasma-Blasta (although XFCE is still available at boot-up time).

So, what is a girl supposed to do when GNOME desktop is required for look-see purposes? I think you're doing something wrong - I know lots of people who install multiple desktop environments in openSUSE

Ah, thanks for this. Can you offer a suggestion as to what I may be doing wrong - seeing as how I simply installed TW as indicated above and have been keeping it regularly updated using 'zypper refresh' and 'zypper up'?

...

Question 5.

Plasma-Blasta has drastically altered the various menus form the way the menus are shown in the real KDE desktop environment. The menus in a way are a hybrid between XFCE and something which the cat dragged in - but anyway.....

Question: will this way of presenting the various menus now becoming permanent and is what will be in oS 42 or are there plans to create sensible menus and bring back some logic into their contents? See my answer to Question 2

Thank you Richard for your response. Greatly appreciated. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.6 & kernel 4.1.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

07:35

On 13 July 2015 at 08:24, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 10/07/15 19:22, Richard Brown wrote:

...
It will not. Tumbleweed and Leap are two different distributions

Ce?!

Not what I deduced from what Stephan Kulow wrote recently.

(I think I said this before, "some into the forest, some for the tinder.....".)

Can we have a clear story on this at some time please.

In my talk at oSC which proposed this idea ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH99TSrfvq0 ) I gave what I believe to be a very clear story, including multiple slides showing Tumbleweed and the new Regular Release side by side ( https://speakerdeck.com/sysrich/the-future-is-unwritten?slide=37 https://speakerdeck.com/sysrich/the-future-is-unwritten?slide=38 https://speakerdeck.com/sysrich/the-future-is-unwritten?slide=35 ) Our wiki says it very clearly "The result of this would be two distributions, our rolling release (Tumbleweed) which is continually updated and a stable release (42) which is upgraded between versions" - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:42 And even external watchers like LWN have written detailed articles on the topic that give a very clear story ( https://lwn.net/Articles/648578/ ) So, I think your deductive reasoning needs a little work..

...

...
Question 2.

In the normal KDE environment - such as in oS 13.2 - I create 8 virtual desktops ("panels" if you like, or whatever) and I have a different wallpaper for each of these virtual desktops.

I now cannot achieve having different wallpapers in Tumbleweed with this Plasma-Blasta - one wallpaper is assigned to all the desktops.

Is this the norm or is there some secret tweak that one needs to make in order to achieve what I want (different images for each of the 8 desktops)? I think this is a question that's best left to the KDE team. They can answer here, but might be better to try and reach out to them at opensuse-kde@opensuse.org or in the opensuse-kde IRC channel

I understand your reply but, please forgive me, as the "Chairman of the Board", aren't you in the position to know what is being planned for the distribution, have some say in what it will include and in which direction it should go?

Please forgive me, but put your question into perspective. There are thousands of packages as part of our openSUSE's distributions, with several different Desktop Environments Your question was related to whether or not you could get 8 different wallpapers on your 8 different panels in one of those Desktop environments (one which I do not use, I might add) That kind of question, not only desktop-specific, but feature-specific, is not the kind that is going to be best handled in a mailing list for technical discussions regarding the whole distribution. So I gave you two alternatives where you could more likely expect an answer. As an openSUSE Board member, that is precisely part of my job "Facilitate communication with all areas of the community" - ( https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board ) If you think that my role on the openSUSE Board is to direct the technical direction of the project at such detail where I should be telling the KDE Team what they should do with regards to wallpaper options on virtual desktops, then I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken

...

Thank you Richard for your response. Greatly appreciated.

Glad to hear it, happy to help. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:22

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 08:24, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 10/07/15 19:22, Richard Brown wrote:

...
On 10 July 2015 at 09:59, Basil Chupin <> wrote:

...

...
...
I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42. It will not. Tumbleweed and Leap are two different distributions

Ce?!

Not what I deduced from what Stephan Kulow wrote recently.

I have not seen him saying that...

...

...
...
So, what is a girl supposed to do when GNOME desktop is required for look-see purposes? I think you're doing something wrong - I know lots of people who install multiple desktop environments in openSUSE

Ah, thanks for this. Can you offer a suggestion as to what I may be doing wrong - seeing as how I simply installed TW as indicated above and have been keeping it regularly updated using 'zypper refresh' and 'zypper up'?

Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up". But try it with: export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0 - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWjkU8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1wslwD/TjGgP3NMagF3cMLzp2D6JlcL XARfu3Su/TvroZKfP1EA/AmImFlcZAYsORUcR8qqQncoypYjsn/EALxglxXhaqwc =xQX4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Werner Flamme

14:03

Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 12:22]:

...

Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up".

Hm, in the good old times[tm], this was written down on https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed. But now, this hint has disappeared. On https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation, you find "zypper dup" only for the upgrade to TW. There is no recommendation whether to run "zypper dup" or "zypper up" now.

...

But try it with:

export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0

or set the value "solver.allowVendorChange = true" in file /etc/zypp/zypp.conf. Just my 2¢, Werner --

Patrick Shanahan

14:47

* Werner Flamme [07-13-15 10:05]:

...

Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 12:22]:

...
Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up".

Hm, in the good old times[tm], this was written down on https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed. But now, this hint has disappeared.

On https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation, you find "zypper dup" only for the upgrade to TW. There is no recommendation whether to run "zypper dup" or "zypper up" now.

...
But try it with:

export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0

or set the value "solver.allowVendorChange = true" in file /etc/zypp/zypp.conf.

My take! For any distrobution, Tumbleweed, 13.1, 13.2, Facotry, ... If you employe other than standard basic repos, use dup, locks and priorities if necessary and always check before committing to any change. If you employe *only* standard basic repos, use up or patch (and locks and priorities as necessary to suit). To {up,down}grade version or ..., use dup. And I always download before committing. You *can* use up for Tumbleweed, but some attention to detail is required as is the case in all instances of using software. If you cannot take the time to "pay attention to detail", you should have someone else maintain your system! Some *thought* is *required*(Tm!). Note: use of "up" and ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE becomes very close to "dup". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:32

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 16:47, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Note: use of "up" and ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE becomes very close to "dup".

Except that "dup" can remove packages. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWj6BcACgkQja8UbcUWM1z66gD/XnlaYo+KAr3vdRsxOsTJoOnV D73dyM0S9gyJMHbrnPUA/2V9oV9ePArfeISU7f5OA+WJ+487rozNEdVBepDahV2+ =qxRf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - Factory

15:01

On 07/13/2015 10:03 AM, Werner Flamme wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 12:22]:

...
Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up".

Hm, in the good old times[tm], this was written down on https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed. But now, this hint has disappeared.

On https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation, you find "zypper dup" only for the upgrade to TW. There is no recommendation whether to run "zypper dup" or "zypper up" now.

AND each release of TumbleWeed is a distribution upgrade, that is why each release of TW should use 'zypper dup'. That is the part people don't seem to comprehend. It is NOT an update but an upgrade! -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:29

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 17:01, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...

On 07/13/2015 10:03 AM, Werner Flamme wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 12:22]:

...
Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up".

Hm, in the good old times[tm], this was written down on https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed. But now, this hint has disappeared.

On https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation, you find "zypper dup" only for the upgrade to TW. There is no recommendation whether to run "zypper dup" or "zypper up" now.

AND each release of TumbleWeed is a distribution upgrade, that is why each release of TW should use 'zypper dup'. That is the part people don't seem to comprehend. It is NOT an update but an upgrade!

Some even refute it. It has to be clearly written, and not by a mere mortal. ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWj510ACgkQja8UbcUWM1x01gEAiSuD8n/+I2/oyRkFFr4SJGLP C8ieto2i1fhtLxhL6jQA/A6FRYC0LisC33G3xWUJEaKImUbiWSLqqB5cqEi5uP2m =SHzT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - Factory

19:59

On 07/13/2015 12:29 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-13 17:01, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...
On 07/13/2015 10:03 AM, Werner Flamme wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 12:22]:

...
Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up".

Hm, in the good old times[tm], this was written down on https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed. But now, this hint has disappeared.

On https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation, you find "zypper dup" only for the upgrade to TW. There is no recommendation whether to run "zypper dup" or "zypper up" now.

AND each release of TumbleWeed is a distribution upgrade, that is why each release of TW should use 'zypper dup'. That is the part people don't seem to comprehend. It is NOT an update but an upgrade!

Some even refute it.

It has to be clearly written, and not by a mere mortal. ;-)

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iF4EAREIAAYFAlWj510ACgkQja8UbcUWM1x01gEAiSuD8n/+I2/oyRkFFr4SJGLP C8ieto2i1fhtLxhL6jQA/A6FRYC0LisC33G3xWUJEaKImUbiWSLqqB5cqEi5uP2m =SHzT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

It has been stated that each release is it's own distribution, I'm sure I read it on these lists somewhere at some time. Damn failing memory. -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 21:59, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...

On 07/13/2015 12:29 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Some even refute it.

It has to be clearly written, and not by a mere mortal. ;-)

It has been stated that each release is it's own distribution, I'm sure I read it on these lists somewhere at some time. Damn failing memory.

A mail is not enough, it is forgotten. It has to be somewhere in the web. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWkH/8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1zQngD/YYt0raoppYiRerU4dY/HAoDc fsHeACeoHssHZTo2L5YBAIqvuCOLhWG2Ro09ok55qSWHFS4Bi2uNi0lZENdMW7ks =UsPW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

20:41

Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-07-13 22:30 (UTC+0200):

...

A mail is not enough, it is forgotten. It has to be somewhere in the web.

Mail here is on the web: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kernel -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:49

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 22:41, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-07-13 22:30 (UTC+0200):

...
A mail is not enough, it is forgotten. It has to be somewhere in the web.

Mail here is on the web: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kernel

No. That's mot the place a user goes to when seeking instructions on how to use Tumbleweed. Or anything else, for that matter... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWkJGIACgkQja8UbcUWM1w0pAEAmS8JWVOrB3febQdOr4HzBymV Vu2dZqbMt31ZbrkFnesA/iciCmcLh+1Pg0HmkGEjEKNkufU7Ca7YBcPiTCu5TcK9 =3WHE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Werner Flamme

14 Jul 14 Jul

08:08

Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 22:49]:

...

On 2015-07-13 22:41, Felix Miata wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-07-13 22:30 (UTC+0200):

...
...
A mail is not enough, it is forgotten. It has to be somewhere in the web.

...
Mail here is on the web: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kernel

No. That's mot the place a user goes to when seeking instructions on how to use Tumbleweed. Or anything else, for that matter...

Aye. This should be written on the Portal:Tumbleweed page. Emphasized. Werner --

Patrick Shanahan

13 Jul 13 Jul

21:30

* Ken Schneider - Factory [07-13-15 16:01]:

...

On 07/13/2015 12:29 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 2015-07-13 17:01, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...
On 07/13/2015 10:03 AM, Werner Flamme wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 12:22]:

...
Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up".

Hm, in the good old times[tm], this was written down on https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed. But now, this hint has disappeared.

On https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation, you find "zypper dup" only for the upgrade to TW. There is no recommendation whether to run "zypper dup" or "zypper up" now.

AND each release of TumbleWeed is a distribution upgrade, that is why each release of TW should use 'zypper dup'. That is the part people don't seem to comprehend. It is NOT an update but an upgrade!

Some even refute it.

It has to be clearly written, and not by a mere mortal. ;-)

It has been stated that each release is it's own distribution, I'm sure I read it on these lists somewhere at some time. Damn failing memory.

And the world turns. An up{date,grade} just issued moments ago and zypper is perfectly happy to install the same files.... <quote> 17:20 Crash: ~ # zypper -v dup -d Verbosity: 1 Warning: You are about to do a distribution upgrade with all enabled repositories. Make sure these repositories are compatible before yo u continue. See 'man zypper' for more information about this command. Initializing Target Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Computing distribution upgrade... Force resolution: No Computing upgrade... The following 10 packages are going to be upgraded: feh 2.12.1-1.2 -> 2.13.1-1.1 flash-player 11.2.202.468-1.1 -> 11.2.202.481-1.1 flash-player-kde4 11.2.202.468-1.1 -> 11.2.202.481-1.1 libopenssl-devel 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 libopenssl1_0_0 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 libopenssl1_0_0-32bit 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 nano 2.4.1-1.2 -> 2.4.2-1.1 openSUSE-release 20150708-1.2 -> 20150712-1.1 openSUSE-release-ftp 20150708-1.2 -> 20150712-1.1 openssl 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 openssl 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 The following product is going to be upgraded: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20150708-0 -> 20150712-0 10 packages to upgrade. Overall download size: 11.2 MiB. Already cached: 0 B Download only. Continue? [y/n/? shows all options] (y): n 17:20 Crash: ~ # zypper -v up -d Verbosity: 1 Initializing Target Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Force resolution: No The following 15 package updates will NOT be installed: javahelp2 2.0.05-28.13 javapackages-tools 4.4.0-42.1 libblas3 3.5.0-71.3 libcaca0 0.99.16-5.14 libenca0 1.15-37.9 libfftw3-3 3.3.4-5.13 libfftw3_threads3 3.3.4-5.13 libhdf5-9 1.8.14-65.3 libhdf5_hl9 1.8.14-65.3 liblapack3 3.5.0-71.3 libwebp5 0.4.3-4.1.TM libwebpmux1 0.4.3-4.1.TM live-fat-stick 0.3.1-8.1 live-usb-gui 0.3.1-8.1 python-javapackages 4.4.0-42.1 The following 10 packages are going to be upgraded: feh 2.12.1-1.2 -> 2.13.1-1.1 flash-player 11.2.202.468-1.1 -> 11.2.202.481-1.1 flash-player-kde4 11.2.202.468-1.1 -> 11.2.202.481-1.1 libopenssl-devel 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 libopenssl1_0_0 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 libopenssl1_0_0-32bit 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 nano 2.4.1-1.2 -> 2.4.2-1.1 openSUSE-release 20150708-1.2 -> 20150712-1.1 openSUSE-release-ftp 20150708-1.2 -> 20150712-1.1 openssl 1.0.2a-1.3 -> 1.0.2d-1.1 The following product is going to be upgraded: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20150708-0 -> 20150712-0 10 packages to upgrade. Overall download size: 11.2 MiB. Already cached: 0 B Download only. Continue? [y/n/? shows all options] (y): The following product is going to be upgraded: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20150708-0 -> 20150712-0 10 packages to upgrade. Overall download size: 11.2 MiB. Already cached: 0 B Download only. Continue? [y/n/? shows all options] (y): </quote> Perhaps the "requirement" for "dup" for Tw can be dismissed and the actual functionality of zypper ulized in it's place. Zypper is a tool. A hammer may be used for other than driving nails. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22:29

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 23:30, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Perhaps the "requirement" for "dup" for Tw can be dismissed and the actual functionality of zypper ulized in it's place.

No; it simply is not needed every time, but you never know in advance when it is and when not. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWkO8MACgkQja8UbcUWM1zxpQD/flKXpwYMp0MABtydB5Jag0y+ CGMnp/T28ZoCFm20LM4A+QGw9i5oSD6ZmsXryXyRq+dcIM2UMjzuk1Kg65KoELUh =HYuw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 16:03, Werner Flamme wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. [13.07.2015 12:22]:

...
Well, Factory, now Tumbleweed, is the other scenario in which you should use "zypper dup" for regular updates, not "zypper up".

Hm, in the good old times[tm], this was written down on https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed. But now, this hint has disappeared.

I noticed.

...

On https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation, you find "zypper dup" only for the upgrade to TW. There is no recommendation whether to run "zypper dup" or "zypper up" now.

I noticed, too. :-(

...

...
But try it with:

export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0

or set the value "solver.allowVendorChange = true" in file /etc/zypp/zypp.conf.

No. a) That one does the contrary b) it does not affect "dup". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWj57kACgkQja8UbcUWM1yoWgD9Fwfduw1k93n+9MeKf0UF3YO8 tBkA+WfLDqUcQ5VdjtEA/j1h1IOBCc9MOo79L+xak0liumeUQzygkEc21DbAvdK2 =xRmz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame

10 Jul 10 Jul

11:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Some questions about Tumbleweed (and its future metamorphosed entity - oS-42)

Il Fri, 10 Jul 2015 17:59:33 +1000, Basil Chupin ha scritto:

...

Is this correct and is this the intended result when Plasma5 was foisted on Tumbleweed?

Plasma 5 is the default desktop: however you may have installed something else, or there may be some left-overs of session files present. zypper se -i session will tell if you do, at least wrt to the packages installed on the system. [Wallpapers for different desktops]

...

Is this the norm or is there some secret tweak that one needs to make in

It is no longer supported upstream for technical reasons (after discussions in the development list).

...

What has happened to the nice widgets/icons/whatever which are used in oS 13.2 but which are now simple-looking "stick figures" in Tumbleweed's Plasma-Blasta?

If you mean Oxygen icons (and the current one is called Breeze) those are still available. Install oxygen-icon-theme and set it in System Settings. For window decorations etc, the package you want is oxygen5-style.

...

something not resembling a child's drawing or is this the way of the future for oS 42?

I doubt you're getting responses to this if this is your tone...

...

environment I thought that I would try out GNOME DE now that Plasma-Blasta look like a Windows10 wannabe.

I just find this funny, given that P5 was around before W10 was announced...

...

Question 5. Plasma-Blasta has drastically altered the various menus form the way the menus are shown in the real KDE desktop environment. The menus in a way

Do you mean the menu layouts? Currently we're using upstream categories, However there's discussion on how to improve this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13 Jul 13 Jul

06:57

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Some questions about Tumbleweed (and its future metamorphosed entity - oS-42)

On 10/07/15 21:54, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Il Fri, 10 Jul 2015 17:59:33 +1000, Basil Chupin ha scritto:

...
Is this correct and is this the intended result when Plasma5 was foisted on Tumbleweed? Plasma 5 is the default desktop: however you may have installed something else, or there may be some left-overs of session files present.

As I wrote, I installed TW from the DVD 20150123 and have been updating the installation regularly (using 'zypper refresh' and 'zypper up'). What could I have installed "something else" or even have "left-overs" when it was a clean install of TW?

...

zypper se -i session will tell if you do,

Sorry, will tell me what if I do? I have already done all the updates and they are history. Are you suggesting that I start from the beginning and run the command you suggest after every time I run 'zypper up'?

...

at least wrt to the packages installed on the system.

[Wallpapers for different desktops]

...
Is this the norm or is there some secret tweak that one needs to make in It is no longer supported upstream for technical reasons (after discussions in the development list).

"Upstream" mentioned once again :-( . Who are these "upstream" and why is what they prescribed followed in a complacent manner without first asking users what the _users_ want?

...

What has happened to the nice widgets/icons/whatever which are used in oS 13.2 but which are now simple-looking "stick figures" in Tumbleweed's Plasma-Blasta? If you mean Oxygen icons (and the current one is called Breeze) those are still available. Install oxygen-icon-theme and set it in System Settings. For window decorations etc, the package you want is oxygen5-style.

Thank your for this information. I shall apply this soonest.

...

something not resembling a child's drawing or is this the way of the future for oS 42? I doubt you're getting responses to this if this is your tone..

Ah, spitting the dummy because of a slight criticism? Nobody would write "criticisms" if there was no regression from what has been available to users for a long time - but then, suddenly, taken away from them.

...

environment I thought that I would try out GNOME DE now that Plasma-Blasta look like a Windows10 wannabe. I just find this funny,

Well, I am not laughing.

...

given that P5 was around before W10 was announced...

This information may have been known and relevant to you perhaps but not to me because I don't care about Windows (for the most part) and I didn't know or cared about Plasma5. I have often wondered what the interaction between the "upstream" people who control what appears in, say, openSUSE, and those who write code for Windows. Are they the same people? One cannot help speculating because of the history of S.u.S.E./Novell/Microsoft/Attachmate.

...

Question 5. Plasma-Blasta has drastically altered the various menus form the way the menus are shown in the real KDE desktop environment. The menus in a way Do you mean the menu layouts? Currently we're using upstream categories, However there's discussion on how to improve this.

I am glad that there is a discussion going on about this. Please tell "upstream" that what was shown in KDE4 is fine and should be respected because the layout(s) is/are sensible. A question here: are the "upstream" people doing Plasma5 the same (or close) to the people who were "upstream" and created KDE4? BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.6 & kernel 4.1.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:29

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Some questions about Tumbleweed (and its future metamorphosed entity - oS-42)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 08:57, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

"Upstream" mentioned once again :-( .

Who are these "upstream" and why is what they prescribed followed in a complacent manner without first asking users what the _users_ want?

Upstream mean the people creating, say, KDE, or Gnome, or Mozilla, or whatever. They have their own organization, not related to openSUSE. There may be people working on several sides, but they are independent. openSUSE, Ubuntu, Debian, whoever, are packagers and distributors, who take whatever upstream creates, with little modification. How come you do not know this, after so many years in the list? :-o - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWjkw8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xUmgD/QrCzOFxMVzIwjM0DFR4y+9UP vQLfdq2vCD0XScZZYhEBAJM5uDd9T0J44ubBAAKkc/f/B+dlhf7kSl+9zkobRe99 =GeP2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame

14 Jul 14 Jul

05:45

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Some questions about Tumbleweed (and its future metamorphosed entity - oS-42)

Il Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:57:06 +1000, Basil Chupin ha scritto:

...

What could I have installed "something else" or even have "left-overs" when it was a clean install of TW?

Improper dependencies, recommended packages, other patterns... there are multiple reasons for this, but only the first ones are bugs. Hard to tell at this point.

...

...
zypper se -i session will tell if you do, Sorry, will tell me what if I do? I have already done all the updates

If you have multiple session packages installed (and those show up in the DM).

...

Who are these "upstream" and why is what they prescribed followed in a

KDE is the community which produces this software (upstream developers), and openSUSE is packaging it (downstream packagers). My email address should tell you I'm primarily from KDE. Given they're the ones that develop the software, what do you suggest we do, then? Bear in mind, this is not like the earlier years where distros almost forked bits of upstream software for their needs (perceived or not). The current stance of the KDE team is to collaborate with upstream developers and occasionally land specific fixes if such things are important for the distribution.

...

Ah, spitting the dummy because of a slight criticism?

No comment.

...

to me because I don't care about Windows (for the most part) and I didn't know or cared about Plasma5.

The KDE team did... we didn't want to end up with software that basically gets no more active development (Plasma Workspace 4.x), did we?

...

I am glad that there is a discussion going on about this. Please tell "upstream" that what was shown in KDE4 is fine and should be respected

Actually, it was the other way round. The menu structure was changed since the early days to accomodate better the multiple DEs supported by openSUSE, it was never used like that by KDE. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: A29D259B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10 Jul 10 Jul

12:05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-10 09:59, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42.

It will not. 42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed, with additions from somewhere. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWftQ4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1ylpgD/Zd8+XGC5iTxtDOcjUrJqaSvd g467qoSf3OC9zJIbPtsBAJLVSuxXBq14CQPaDNkOHyPRr7mzffAiwF3BnDvnBr+/ =GIBQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

16:05

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-10 09:59, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42.

It will not.

42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed, with additions from somewhere.

Ohh Pessimistic one. Coolo has said the first 2 sources of SR (submit requests) for Leap will be the SLE update repo and the Tumbleweed repo (or factory repo). I strongly suspect a 3rd (or more) repo will have to be added to the list, but I can't see Tumbleweed ever being dropped as an approved source of SRs. One specific new repo to be allowed for SRs I expect to be for the kernel. It sounds like a consensus is forming that the SLE kernel is too old, but I believe the Tumbleweed kernel will be deemed too new, so an additional source will need to be defined. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:27

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-10 18:05, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

...
42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed, with additions from somewhere.

Ohh Pessimistic one.

Huh? What is pessimistic? :-?? I don't understand. Leap takes its sources from SLE, that's the main idea as expressed on OSC. Then extras are added, modifications are made, from "somewhere", probably tumbleweed, but with differences, because libraries in leap as taken from SLE are older, with implications that have yet to be found. Ie, I used the word "somewhere" because till Leap takes actual form, many things are yet unknown. But it is a fact that Leap doesn't derive directly, or morph, from Tumbleweed. 13.2 did, Leap does not. In the sense of taking a photo from tumbleweed, freeze and polish, with a few beta cycles. In the past, we could just be using factory which would suddenly one day become 13.1 or 13.2, at which freez/morph point we would switch repos to the stable ones, with no changes.

...

One specific new repo to be allowed for SRs I expect to be for the kernel. It sounds like a consensus is forming that the SLE kernel is too old, but I believe the Tumbleweed kernel will be deemed too new, so an additional source will need to be defined.

Thus, /somewhere/ :-)) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWgAHcACgkQja8UbcUWM1xKaQD+Nq8hHUqDqqowCJAB+4HyeAAg hvN6eAp4U/49BxUiMYYA/1Toqpm4BNOdnfmBh8/kP4dsc2I4PFsg3vdAml11+f9X =jhiW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

17:46

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-10 18:05, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...
...
42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed, with additions from somewhere.

Ohh Pessimistic one.

Huh? What is pessimistic? :-??

I don't understand.

My guess is Leap will end up using: - a recent LTS kernel from kernel.org - base libraries, services, systemd, X, etc from SLE - Gnome / KDE / other DEs from Tumbleweed Thus the way Tumbleweed "morphs" into Leap is maintainers will identify the most important leading edge technologies from their perspective and SR them to Leap. At the end of the day, I'd be willing to bet over 50% of the packages in Leap will come from Tumbleweed, not SLE. Greg -- Greg Freemyer www.IntelligentAvatar.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

James Mason

17:51

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 07/10/2015 10:46 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

At the end of the day, I'd be willing to bet over 50% of the packages in Leap will come from Tumbleweed, not SLE.

Considering that the SLE sources are <2K packages, and openSUSE 13.2 had >9K packages, I think the percentage is going to skew *a bit* higher towards Tumbleweed sources ;-) - -- James Mason Technical Architect, Public Cloud openSUSE Member SUSE jmason@suse.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSECon 2015: Register at susecon.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJVoAYEAAoJEBs5UYhsRJAjydcIAI2d0sBf++2rvBYw793EmjzL YHdXZdXdtgiwFtIwNXv7ZwrukDisW5mnAOMLPkHrkEkkS3bCadeuQ+2gcBaOc/KI co4DqArIwIUP/GEI1WBQw3Wp3/+e/QzO5RlV/SkFYe079bdYTBhTaLuAPEaEVLuZ WLbC+EFTeYQZiohYiLX3T+97HNZTR8tEzOwNPlo1Hh6NmofC11ZtLb4HntrtfSL4 JoG3RZ3f/ORcpLOyvjl0LUO5nx5t+ZAAlFJPLZRCfzoVFCxP7gdRTpiWvlZlGV7r pCeSpp9dS4efvOXZU+qaLP/axq2ClGSVB7k1+XSieWbRatFqiBs+1oijMxfNrR0= =xpov -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13 Jul 13 Jul

07:38

On 11/07/15 03:46, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-10 18:05, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...
42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed, with additions from somewhere. Ohh Pessimistic one. Huh? What is pessimistic? :-??

I don't understand. My guess is Leap will end up using:

- a recent LTS kernel from kernel.org - base libraries, services, systemd, X, etc from SLE - Gnome / KDE / other DEs from Tumbleweed

Thus the way Tumbleweed "morphs" into Leap is maintainers will identify the most important leading edge technologies from their perspective and SR them to Leap.

At the end of the day, I'd be willing to bet over 50% of the packages in Leap will come from Tumbleweed, not SLE.

I suspect that the percentage would be greater than 50% from TW - just my gut feeling from reading the posts in this list. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.6 & kernel 4.1.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

07:35

On 11/07/15 03:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-10 18:05, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...
42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed, with additions from somewhere. Ohh Pessimistic one. Huh? What is pessimistic? :-??

I don't understand.

Leap takes its sources from SLE, that's the main idea as expressed on OSC. Then extras are added, modifications are made, from "somewhere", probably tumbleweed, but with differences, because libraries in leap as taken from SLE are older, with implications that have yet to be found.

Ie, I used the word "somewhere" because till Leap takes actual form, many things are yet unknown.

But it is a fact that Leap doesn't derive directly, or morph, from Tumbleweed. 13.2 did, Leap does not. In the sense of taking a photo from tumbleweed, freeze and polish, with a few beta cycles. In the past, we could just be using factory which would suddenly one day become 13.1 or 13.2, at which freez/morph point we would switch repos to the stable ones, with no changes.

...
One specific new repo to be allowed for SRs I expect to be for the kernel. It sounds like a consensus is forming that the SLE kernel is too old, but I believe the Tumbleweed kernel will be deemed too new, so an additional source will need to be defined. Thus, /somewhere/ :-))

Carlos, do you realise how your comments only add to the confusion which is now in the state of chaos re Tumbleweed and openSUSE 42.x? :-) But in reality I think that what you write is quite fine and perfect - and I therefore apologise for my above comment. What you have written expresses perfectly the question which some of us users have about openSUSE and whether whoever is "guiding" its development is actually of this planet. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.6 & kernel 4.1.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

06:58

On 11/07/15 02:05, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-10 09:59, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42. It will not.

42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed, with additions from somewhere. Ohh Pessimistic one.

Coolo has said the first 2 sources of SR (submit requests) for Leap will be the SLE update repo and the Tumbleweed repo (or factory repo).

Thanks, Greg. I thought so.

...

I strongly suspect a 3rd (or more) repo will have to be added to the list, but I can't see Tumbleweed ever being dropped as an approved source of SRs.

One specific new repo to be allowed for SRs I expect to be for the kernel. It sounds like a consensus is forming that the SLE kernel is too old, but I believe the Tumbleweed kernel will be deemed too new, so an additional source will need to be defined.

Greg

BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.6 & kernel 4.1.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

James Mason

10 Jul 10 Jul

17:39

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 07/10/2015 05:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2015-07-10 09:59, Basil Chupin wrote:

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...
I now have some questions about Tumbleweed and the way it will morph into openSUSE 42. It will not.

42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed,

SLE sources *are* drawn from Factory/Tumbleweed. Just not as often, to provide a stable ABI. "It's one of those circle-of-life kind of things."

...

with additions from somewhere.

The somewhere is Devel projects on OBS, just like every package from every version of openSUSE has ever been. - -- James Mason Technical Architect, Public Cloud openSUSE Member SUSE jmason@suse.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSECon 2015: Register at susecon.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJVoANvAAoJEBs5UYhsRJAjO+UH/RqGYbnnE070zR+r+9cexShJ Ww/vqPp0OWmQ+BoiiBbY1eqnBhItik8pDjc5vXWljMrNodT329U35b5lAS6dvcny AOTkb0x57oErS8xwtgfbdV6/pYdwSTWKObVpuyfvbmxSH7slspvP77TleYxkLn7A cGNyTs1BQvkaFsL7s6usU0RpuUL1w05/RzQPV86IezOH0gh6aoY+CSQWqjXG91MO yWSYkdrcXiyhtx+68tcAEaVvHhKShnu1NklB5ulguW1MJSrKd3Uk/mwYP2oY9VDM zG4t8Vjp5MlETxYZAWRZYZ7qhYaM48kghY0uJcG8F0c59cxAbbAU4f1feRoU7Fs= =MCfy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:53

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-10 19:39, James Mason wrote:

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On 07/10/2015 05:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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...
42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed,

SLE sources *are* drawn from Factory/Tumbleweed. Just not as often, to provide a stable ABI.

Of course, that is known. But by the time that Leap takes from SLE, Tumbleweed is already thousands of miles further away beyond the road. Long and old history :-) Thus it can not be said that Leap derives from the /current/ Tumbleweed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWgBqAACgkQja8UbcUWM1x//QD/WFJ4TcI16GDa+dHQcja9pIgo 69j1U9dCB6012W01gygBAJsJV24Mh05OP/6/TmLwF177VO7EqFWBGtLfH5Lwciso =7au0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

18:07

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-10 19:39, James Mason wrote:

...
On 07/10/2015 05:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
42 (Leap 42) derives from SLE, not from Tumbleweed,

SLE sources *are* drawn from Factory/Tumbleweed. Just not as often, to provide a stable ABI.

Of course, that is known.

But by the time that Leap takes from SLE, Tumbleweed is already thousands of miles further away beyond the road. Long and old history :-)

Thus it can not be said that Leap derives from the /current/ Tumbleweed.

Using James other comment that openSUSE typically has 9,000 packages and SLES only 2,000, it looks like 75% (or more) of Leap will come more or less directly from Tumbleweed. And the part that doesn't is the stuff you want to be reliable / stable. I know a month+ ago the kernel being old was a major concern, but that seems to be being addressed in its own fashion. For my work PCs I will enjoy having a stable reliable base, and then add on the OBS repos I need to have the latest tools I specifically need. I have truly high expectations for Leap being a great platform for normal users (not bleeding edge people). Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Kubecek

18:20

On Friday 10 of July 2015 14:07:21 Greg Freemyer wrote:

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I know a month+ ago the kernel being old was a major concern, but that seems to be being addressed in its own fashion.

Except one "minor detail": I don't remember seeing anyone volunteering to maintain a stable-4.1 based Leap kernel branch. We may agree that it would be the best choice - but it's not going to happen without someone actually doing it. And maintaining such kernel would be more work than maintaining a SLE-based kernel in the fashion we have been doing (and plan to do) for Evergreen 11.4 and 13.1. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

11 Jul 11 Jul

19:37

On 10 July 2015 at 20:20, Michal Kubecek wrote:

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Except one "minor detail": I don't remember seeing anyone volunteering to maintain a stable-4.1 based Leap kernel branch. We may agree that it would be the best choice - but it's not going to happen without someone actually doing it.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kernel/2015-07/msg00008.html HTH ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13 Jul 13 Jul

07:55

On 11/07/15 04:20, Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

...
I know a month+ ago the kernel being old was a major concern, but that seems to be being addressed in its own fashion. Except one "minor detail": I don't remember seeing anyone volunteering to maintain a stable-4.1 based Leap kernel branch. We may agree that it would be the best choice - but it's not going to happen without someone actually doing it. And maintaining such kernel would be more work than

On Friday 10 of July 2015 14:07:21 Greg Freemyer wrote: maintaining a SLE-based kernel in the fashion we have been doing (and plan to do) for Evergreen 11.4 and 13.1.

Michal Kube�ek

Oh Jesus, introduce now "Evergreen 11.4 and 13.2" into the equation! I think that I had better read and digest the Chaos Theory :'( . BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.6 & kernel 4.1.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10 Jul 10 Jul

18:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-10 20:07, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

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Thus it can not be said that Leap derives from the /current/ Tumbleweed.

Using James other comment that openSUSE typically has 9,000 packages and SLES only 2,000, it looks like 75% (or more) of Leap will come more or less directly from Tumbleweed.

In that sense, yes, you are right.

...

I have truly high expectations for Leap being a great platform for normal users (not bleeding edge people).

I hope you are right :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWgDzEACgkQja8UbcUWM1yUYgD/TFq+6T8HYgpFO80t3BbWu73y nIg0QlgLcd+DOESYppQA/RSwLPthqEeIjeFLOOAxw8loaN1TT3pfPA1ZRcLhbknp =nxrd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13 Jul 13 Jul