Is it time to deprecate plymouth in TW?
Hi there, After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed. Regards, Frank
On Donnerstag, 28. November 2024 23:34:21 CET Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2024-11-28 20:28, Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory wrote:
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Will you put in the work for an alternative?
What is the usecase of plymouth? Is it more than hiding the startup messages behind the (UEFI-provided) boot logo? What do other distros use? -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Andreas Vetter
Am 29.11.24 um 09:15 schrieb Andreas Vetter:
On Donnerstag, 28. November 2024 23:34:21 CET Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2024-11-28 20:28, Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory wrote:
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed. Will you put in the work for an alternative? What is the usecase of plymouth? Is it more than hiding the startup messages behind the (UEFI-provided) boot logo? What do other distros use?
plymouth
-- -- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
On 2024-11-29 09:15, Andreas Vetter wrote:
On Donnerstag, 28. November 2024 23:34:21 CET Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2024-11-28 20:28, Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory wrote:
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Will you put in the work for an alternative?
What is the usecase of plymouth? Is it more than hiding the startup messages behind the (UEFI-provided) boot logo?
With a fully encrypted system, it can cache the password the first time you type it (the first partition) and issue it automatically to the other partition prompts. I think. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Nov-28-2024 04:34PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Thursday 2024-11-28 20:28, Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory wrote:
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed. Will you put in the work for an alternative?
I thought Tumbleweed was a production based platform? Who is the engineer able to test these updates prior? Push as fast as you can and laugh. Production based when the initramfs is affected by dracut script causing the kernel variable handling plymouth to 'mumbo jumbo' the production release. Please correct me. It's not stable. -Hopes
Frank Krüger composed on 2024-11-28 20:28 (UTC+0100):
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
I have well in excess of 40 ostensibly "current" TW installations. Not one have any of plymouth installed, so it can't be "required", unless for some particular configuration I never use. I deprecated here it when it first arrived, which IIRC happened before TW was born. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Felix Miata writes:
I have well in excess of 40 ostensibly "current" TW installations. Not one have any of plymouth installed, so it can't be "required", unless for some particular configuration I never use.
I happen to have one of these, then. :-) I'm using the DDC on the otherwise unused motherboard VGA and without plymouth installed that interface is apparently never initialized so the I2C devices that I have connected there don't work. That's probably fixable in some other way, but I don't know how… Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptation for Waldorf rackAttack V1.04R1: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 02:35:19PM +0100, ASSI wrote:
Felix Miata writes:
I have well in excess of 40 ostensibly "current" TW installations. Not one have any of plymouth installed, so it can't be "required", unless for some particular configuration I never use.
I happen to have one of these, then. :-)
I'm using the DDC on the otherwise unused motherboard VGA and without plymouth installed that interface is apparently never initialized so the I2C devices that I have connected there don't work. That's probably fixable in some other way, but I don't know how…
Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
SD adaptation for Waldorf rackAttack V1.04R1: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
On 2024-11-29 15:16, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 02:35:19PM +0100, ASSI wrote:
Felix Miata writes:
I have well in excess of 40 ostensibly "current" TW installations. Not one have any of plymouth installed, so it can't be "required", unless for some particular configuration I never use.
I happen to have one of these, then. :-)
I'm using the DDC on the otherwise unused motherboard VGA and without plymouth installed that interface is apparently never initialized so the I2C devices that I have connected there don't work. That's probably fixable in some other way, but I don't know how…
LOL! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Nov-29-2024 03:09AM, Dominik George via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed. I, for one, will not take on the burden of explaining to regular users why they can't have a boot logo like on all other operating systems.
-nik
I'll give you my opinion and I think that is pathetic.
Am Samstag, 30. November 2024, 08:43:49 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit schrieb - pj via openSUSE Factory:
On Nov-29-2024 03:09AM, Dominik George via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.> I, for one, will not take on the burden of explaining to regular users why they can't have a boot logo like on all other operating systems.
-nik
I'll give you my opinion and I think that is pathetic.
Why on earth would it be pathetic to meet users expectations? Other operation systems really try hard to make users forget the complexity of booting a system. Many people will assume that something is broken when confronted with a thousand lines of messages while booting.
Why on earth would it be pathetic to meet users expectations? Other operation systems really try hard to make users forget the complexity of booting a system. Many people will assume that something is broken when confronted with a thousand lines of messages while booting.
A "user" receiving 1000 kernel traces when the machine boots (WOW); this must be an industrial environment. The user should not even have to rely on booting the 'anything' the user should simply power on their workstation and utilize the machine for the task/tasks at hand. If things are (have gotten) a little wild, "a thousand lines of messages" per machine then I would suggest a 'deep dive' into the actual system administrators machine...ensuring that of course, all guard rails are *absolutely* in place for a successful user and system administration experience. Each user is pulling top line upgrades? Somethings wrong then who has root, why are they 'zypper dup' .....now there's 2000 lines and none of them left. Show why users have root.
AW composed on 2024-11-30 12:56 (UTC+0100):
Why on earth would it be pathetic to meet users expectations? Other operation systems really try hard to make users forget the complexity of booting a system. Many people will assume that something is broken when confronted with a thousand lines of messages while booting.
Those other operating systems try hard to shield users from knowing anything about what is happening. Shielding from knowledge I find pathetic. Linux isn't Windows, but is about choices. New users ought to be given up front a choice whether they prefer ignorance to knowledge, and bloat/bling to reliable simplicity, couched in friendlier terms of course. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Those other operating systems try hard to shield users from knowing anything about what is happening.
What the actual… Are you seriously suggesting that Debian or ArchLinux hide their complexity from users? Because they allow them to have a boot splash? This thread is getting more and more ridiculous, on top of all the elitist arguments. -nik
On 2024-12-01 08:16, Dominik George via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Those other operating systems try hard to shield users from knowing anything about what is happening.
What the actual…
Are you seriously suggesting that Debian or ArchLinux hide their complexity from users? Because they allow them to have a boot splash?
This thread is getting more and more ridiculous, on top of all the elitist arguments.
Yes, the verbose logging should be the default boot screen. Many, maybe most, Linux users are geeks. We prefer to see what the kernel is doing when booting instead of a useless progress bar. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2024-12-01 13:55, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
01.12.2024 15:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Many, maybe most, Linux users are geeks.
Try following openSUSE forums for a couple of months.
I did, some years ago. I don't think I will come back. But I think I know why you say that :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am 1. Dezember 2024 13:40:04 MEZ schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
On 2024-12-01 08:16, Dominik George via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Those other operating systems try hard to shield users from knowing anything about what is happening.
What the actual…
Are you seriously suggesting that Debian or ArchLinux hide their complexity from users? Because they allow them to have a boot splash?
This thread is getting more and more ridiculous, on top of all the elitist arguments.
Yes, the verbose logging should be the default boot screen. Many, maybe most, Linux users are geeks. We prefer to see what the kernel is doing when booting instead of a useless progress bar.
No. Definitely not !!! Don't extrapolate from yourself to everyone. I don't want to see him. And if I do, then I'll press ESC Regards Eric
On Sunday 1 December 2024 14:58:02 Greenwich Mean Time Eric Schirra wrote:
Am 1. Dezember 2024 13:40:04 MEZ schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
On 2024-12-01 08:16, Dominik George via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Those other operating systems try hard to shield users from knowing anything about what is happening.
What the actual…
Are you seriously suggesting that Debian or ArchLinux hide their complexity from users? Because they allow them to have a boot splash?
This thread is getting more and more ridiculous, on top of all the elitist arguments.> Yes, the verbose logging should be the default boot screen. Many, maybe most, Linux users are geeks. We prefer to see what the kernel is doing when booting instead of a useless progress bar. No. Definitely not !!! Don't extrapolate from yourself to everyone. I don't want to see him. And if I do, then I'll press ESC
+1
Regards Eric
-- openSUSE Tumbleweed 20241129 kwin 6.2.4 kmail2 6.2.3 (24.08.3) - akonadiserver 6.2.3 (24.08.3) - Kernel: 6.11.8-1- default - kernel-firmware-radeon 20241125
On Sun, 01 Dec 2024 15:58:02 +0100, Eric Schirra <ecsos@schirra.net> wrote:
Am 1. Dezember 2024 13:40:04 MEZ schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
On 2024-12-01 08:16, Dominik George via openSUSE Factory wrote: [...]
What the actual…
Are you seriously suggesting that Debian or ArchLinux hide their complexity from users? Because they allow them to have a boot splash?
This thread is getting more and more ridiculous, on top of all the elitist arguments.
Yes, the verbose logging should be the default boot screen. Many, maybe most, Linux users are geeks. We prefer to see what the kernel is doing when booting instead of a useless progress bar.
No. Definitely not !!!
This is why I suggested to make this an install option. For me it is also a define "Definitely YES, I want to see them"
Don't extrapolate from yourself to everyone.
*everyone*? Don't extrapolate from yourself :)
I don't want to see him. And if I do, then I'll press ESC
That ESC is almost muscle memory now. It shouldn't have to be I still feel that I could hit it too early and break something or hit it too late and miss a message
Regards Eric
-- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.37 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
On Sunday 2024-12-01 04:04, Felix Miata wrote:
Linux isn't Windows, but is about choices.
I guess you have not understood http://www.islinuxaboutchoice.com/ yet.
Jan Engelhardt composed on 2024-12-02 10:45 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
Linux isn't Windows, but is about choices.
I guess you have not understood http://www.islinuxaboutchoice.com/ yet.
Linux, as in GNU/Linux distros: distro (>100 to choose from) kernel version prebuilt kernel vs custom compiled kernel Gnome vs Plasma vs … DE vs plain WM systemd-boot vs grub vs elilo vs … plymouth or not lots and lots of config options more… all compared to like-it-or-not one-size-fits-all from Windows or MacOs -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Tuesday 2024-12-03 11:26, Felix Miata wrote:
Jan Engelhardt composed on 2024-12-02 10:45 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
Linux isn't Windows, but is about choices.
I guess you have not understood http://www.islinuxaboutchoice.com/ yet.
Linux, as in GNU/Linux distros:
distro (>100 to choose from)
Just because you /can/ choose does not mean that the motivation for those distros to exist is just to offer you a choice of >100. By and large, the manufacturer wanted to fulfill a desire for a specific feature/concept/price tag/business procedure. And that's why "$x is about choice" is a bullshit phrase.
On 2024-12-03 11:26, Felix Miata wrote:
Jan Engelhardt composed on 2024-12-02 10:45 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
Linux isn't Windows, but is about choices.
I guess you have not understood http://www.islinuxaboutchoice.com/ yet.
Linux, as in GNU/Linux distros:
distro (>100 to choose from) kernel version prebuilt kernel vs custom compiled kernel Gnome vs Plasma vs … DE vs plain WM systemd-boot vs grub vs elilo vs … plymouth or not lots and lots of config options more…
all compared to like-it-or-not one-size-fits-all from Windows or MacOs
+1 -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Op zaterdag 30 november 2024 08:43:49 Midden-Europese standaardtijd schreef - pj via openSUSE Factory:
I'll give you my opinion and I think that is pathetic. And I will not hesitate and call this outright pedantic.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team openSUSE Mods Team
On Nov-30-2024 06:11AM, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op zaterdag 30 november 2024 08:43:49 Midden-Europese standaardtijd schreef - pj via openSUSE Factory:
I'll give you my opinion and I think that is pathetic. And I will not hesitate and call this outright pedantic.
LOL, this is serious stuff, people concerned with minor details but so called SYSadmins are complaining about their users who have > root priviladges (borking out logins because of plymouth). Absolutely shocking. What I would do is ask or wait for a time to speak with the professionals about what happened. I'm not picking on anyone, I am stating what I believe to be a way in which administration on linux (at least) computer systems may be able to run. The fraillity and complaint that the user I reponded to in this thread should enlighten anyone who isn't spoon fed ideas for users to be taking in 1000 ehh 999 kernel traces each time they login with root. https://www.startpage.com/sp/search?query=pedantic&cat=web&pl=opensearch&language=english On my response each moment, let's do this thing. Hey ,, set up a test machine with what's in the snapshot before you introduce it. WOW -Best
Hi Am 28.11.24 um 20:28 schrieb Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Plymouth is just the graphical frontend for the boot screen. It's possible to build a system without plymouth, but that would make a bad impression to users. On TW, plymouth really needs an update to a more recent version. The one that got sent out a few days ago wasn't even very recent, worked on many systems and passed openQA. The latest release 24.0004.60 was already broken when I tried locally. Part of the problem is that plymouth upstream has zero release management. A release is just a git tag; no changelog, little testing. Hence, pushing out updates is fragile. Best regards Thomas
Regards, Frank
-- -- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
On 2024-11-29 10:58, Thomas Zimmermann via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi
Am 28.11.24 um 20:28 schrieb Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Plymouth is just the graphical frontend for the boot screen. It's possible to build a system without plymouth, but that would make a bad impression to users.
Some users appreciate the beauty of a verbose kernel booting, and consider the graphical ugly. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:24:57 +0100, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2024-11-29 10:58, Thomas Zimmermann via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi
Am 28.11.24 um 20:28 schrieb Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Plymouth is just the graphical frontend for the boot screen. It's possible to build a system without plymouth, but that would make a bad impression to users.
Some users appreciate the beauty of a verbose kernel booting, and consider the graphical ugly.
I don't consider it ugly, but I rather see se startup lines verbosity than a graphical frontend or a splash screen. Then again, the people on this list are most likely not the average-joe's of laptop users. Maybe just making that choice easier and simpler when installing a new OS or doing major updates. -- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.37 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
H.Merijn Brand composed on 2024-11-29 13:30 (UTC+0100):
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:24:57 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-11-29 10:58, Thomas Zimmermann via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Am 28.11.24 um 20:28 schrieb Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Plymouth is just the graphical frontend for the boot screen. It's possible to build a system without plymouth, but that would make a bad impression to users.
Some users appreciate the beauty of a verbose kernel booting, and consider the graphical ugly.
+ + + to the first part
I don't consider it ugly, but I rather see se startup lines verbosity than a graphical frontend or a splash screen.
+ + +
Then again, the people on this list are most likely not the average-joe's of laptop users.
Maybe just making that choice easier and simpler when installing a new OS or doing major updates.
I find tabooing in detailed package selection easy enough, since I've always others to taboo anyway. I have no appreciation for bloat-bling aka Windows emulation. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2024/11/29 13:30:18 +0100, H.Merijn Brand via openSUSE Factory wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:24:57 +0100, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2024-11-29 10:58, Thomas Zimmermann via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi
Am 28.11.24 um 20:28 schrieb Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Plymouth is just the graphical frontend for the boot screen. It's possible to build a system without plymouth, but that would make a bad impression to users.
Some users appreciate the beauty of a verbose kernel booting, and consider the graphical ugly.
I don't consider it ugly, but I rather see se startup lines verbosity than a graphical frontend or a splash screen.
Then again, the people on this list are most likely not the average-joe's of laptop users.
Maybe just making that choice easier and simpler when installing a new OS or doing major updates.
Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console. Werner -- "Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool." -- Edward Burr
Am Di., 3. Dez. 2024 um 11:16 Uhr schrieb Dr. Werner Fink <werner@suse.de>:
Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
Do these projects have a home page or a repository somewhere? Cause Googling for this is hard... Best Martin
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:41 PM Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:
Am Di., 3. Dez. 2024 um 11:16 Uhr schrieb Dr. Werner Fink <werner@suse.de>:
Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
Do these projects have a home page or a repository somewhere? Cause Googling for this is hard...
I presume it is this one https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Base:System/blog With URL https://github.com/bitstreamout/showconsole
On 2024/12/03 14:51:01 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:41 PM Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:
Am Di., 3. Dez. 2024 um 11:16 Uhr schrieb Dr. Werner Fink <werner@suse.de>:
Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
Do these projects have a home page or a repository somewhere? Cause Googling for this is hard...
I presume it is this one
https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Base:System/blog
With URL
Ack :) -- "Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool." -- Edward Burr
Hi Werner, On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 11:16:01 +0100, Dr. Werner Fink wrote:
[...] Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
you made my day! Thanks a lot! Finally got rid of plymouth ;-)
Werner
Cheers. l8er manfred
Hi Carlos & Felix, On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 15:09:25 +0100, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
Hi Werner,
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 11:16:01 +0100, Dr. Werner Fink wrote:
[...] Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
you made my day! Thanks a lot! Finally got rid of plymouth ;-)
AFAIK you don't like plymouth, too. I had so far locked its installation, but using blog-plymouth, locks are no more needed. In case you have that stuff still installed, just zypper rm -u plymouth Then zypper in blog-plymouth In case you need it on very ancient systems which don't provide blog{,-plymouth} on their own, I'd suggest to branch https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Base:System/blog and build it for those ancient systems yourself. No need for any locks, and plymouth won't get in your way anymore ;-) Cheers. l8er manfred
Manfred Hollstein composed on 2024-12-03 16:27 (UTC+0100):
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 15:09:25 +0100, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 11:16:01 +0100, Dr. Werner Fink wrote:
Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
you made my day! Thanks a lot! Finally got rid of plymouth ;-)
AFAIK you don't like plymouth, too. I had so far locked its installation, but using blog-plymouth, locks are no more needed. In case you have that stuff still installed, just
zypper rm -u plymouth
# zypper --no-refresh se -s -i mouth | egrep -v 'debug|devel|srcp|openSUSE-20' | egrep 'x86|noarch'| sort -f # grep N_ID /etc/os-release VERSION_ID="20241129"# #
Then
zypper in blog-plymouth
In case you need it on very ancient systems which don't provide blog{,-plymouth} on their own, I'd suggest to branch
and build it for those ancient systems yourself.
No need for any locks, and plymouth won't get in your way anymore ;-)
What does blog-plymouth provide that I might have any use for? I don't use VMs except for DOS on OS/2. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 17:41:56 +0100, Felix Miata wrote:
Manfred Hollstein composed on 2024-12-03 16:27 (UTC+0100):
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 15:09:25 +0100, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 11:16:01 +0100, Dr. Werner Fink wrote:
Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
you made my day! Thanks a lot! Finally got rid of plymouth ;-)
AFAIK you don't like plymouth, too. I had so far locked its installation, but using blog-plymouth, locks are no more needed. In case you have that stuff still installed, just
zypper rm -u plymouth
# zypper --no-refresh se -s -i mouth | egrep -v 'debug|devel|srcp|openSUSE-20' | egrep 'x86|noarch'| sort -f # grep N_ID /etc/os-release VERSION_ID="20241129"# #
Then
zypper in blog-plymouth
In case you need it on very ancient systems which don't provide blog{,-plymouth} on their own, I'd suggest to branch
and build it for those ancient systems yourself.
No need for any locks, and plymouth won't get in your way anymore ;-)
What does blog-plymouth provide that I might have any use for? I don't use VMs except for DOS on OS/2.
It helps to reduce the number of locks against "recommended" packages ;-) Cheers. l8er manfred
Manfred Hollstein composed on 2024-12-03 19:01 (UTC+0100):
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 17:41:56 +0100, Felix Miata wrote:
What does blog-plymouth provide that I might have any use for? I don't use VMs except for DOS on OS/2.
It helps to reduce the number of locks against "recommended" packages ;-)
"solver.onlyRequires = true" seems to keep me unexposed to recommends. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2024-12-03 20:42, Felix Miata wrote:
Manfred Hollstein composed on 2024-12-03 19:01 (UTC+0100):
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 17:41:56 +0100, Felix Miata wrote:
What does blog-plymouth provide that I might have any use for? I don't use VMs except for DOS on OS/2.
It helps to reduce the number of locks against "recommended" packages ;-)
"solver.onlyRequires = true" seems to keep me unexposed to recommends.
That one has side effects. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2024-12-03 21:01, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-12-03 20:42, Felix Miata wrote:
Manfred Hollstein composed on 2024-12-03 19:01 (UTC+0100):
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 17:41:56 +0100, Felix Miata wrote:
What does blog-plymouth provide that I might have any use for? I don't use VMs except for DOS on OS/2.
It helps to reduce the number of locks against "recommended" packages ;-)
"solver.onlyRequires = true" seems to keep me unexposed to recommends.
That one has side effects.
blog-plymouth - Replaces plymouth by blogd The Blogd daemon can be used as a replacement for Plymouth in situations where a splash screen and/or usage of a frame buffer is unwanted. The Blogd is also a Plymouth agent. That means, it can handle requests for a password prompt by the system password service of systemd. The blogd daemon writes out boot log messages to every terminal device used by /dev/console and to the log file /var/log/boot.log. When halting or rebooting the system, it moves the log file to /var/log/boot.old and appends all log messages upto to point at which the file systems becomes unavailable. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 11:16:01 +0100, "Dr. Werner Fink" <werner@suse.de> wrote:
On 2024/11/29 13:30:18 +0100, H.Merijn Brand via openSUSE Factory wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:24:57 +0100, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2024-11-29 10:58, Thomas Zimmermann via openSUSE Factory wrote: [...] [...] [...]
Some users appreciate the beauty of a verbose kernel booting, and consider the graphical ugly.
I don't consider it ugly, but I rather see se startup lines verbosity than a graphical frontend or a splash screen.
Then again, the people on this list are most likely not the average-joe's of laptop users.
Maybe just making that choice easier and simpler when installing a new OS or doing major updates.
Just to be mention .. there is blog and blog-plymouth to replace plymouth which then give a text based boot screen on the monitor as well as on any attached other (serial) console.
# # ## # # ## # # #### #### ## # # # # # ## # ###### #### # # # ## # #### #### ## SPOT-ON! Thank you! Should have know this eons ago. You made my/our day!
Werner
-- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.37 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
On Nov-29-2024 06:24AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-11-29 10:58, Thomas Zimmermann via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi
Am 28.11.24 um 20:28 schrieb Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Plymouth is just the graphical frontend for the boot screen. It's possible to build a system without plymouth, but that would make a bad impression to users.
Some users appreciate the beauty of a verbose kernel booting, and consider the graphical ugly.
It's 'Traces' or 'Straces' that the machines screen is allowed to display during the kernel loading process correct? I am so glad that system administrators are concerned about the 'boot screen' this shows that the Operating System is being used by people who rely on it. I would to share something that an advanced user advised me prior. My thoughts > Would it be 'ok' to consider tightening up initramfs? Location > /etc/environment < OS = openSUSE Tumbleweed "Quote by advanced user" I do this on all machines TW INITRD_IN_POSTTRANS=1 SKIP_REGENERATE_INITRD_ALL=1 The first prevents multiple building of one single kernel's initrd during a zypper up or dup, deferring build until all transactions affecting initrd building and/or content have been applied. The second causes automatic initrd regeneration to be applied to one specific kernel, instead of all installed kernels, preventing inclusion of some possibly failing component to initrds that may have been usable when last generated. - Hopes
On 11/28/24 8:28 PM, Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Regards, Frank
I run my system with Plymouth disabled (kernel options: plymouth.enable=0 splash=none) as I consider it unneeded complexity, over-engineered, bloatware and another point of failure, which the recent woes (I was not affected) showcased perfectly. But apparently people want their fancy graphical boot. Sometimes, less (software) is more.
On Friday, November 29th, 2024 at 2:28 AM, Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Regards, Frank
This is a really strange thread to read through considering that the project just announced the "Upgrade to Freedom[1]" movement/initiative to attract Windows10 refugees. We all can agree that Linux is pretty difficult to start with, especially for non-technical users. Making it less Windows like doesn't really shows much synergy with this initiative. Default is king. We should've learnt this by now, and if you're truly a "power" or "advanced" user you can easily customize the system to your liking instead of changing the distro defaults. An alternative to this is that we collectively vote against attracting new, non-Linux users to the project, and not even try to partake in something like the Upgrade to Freedom initiative. Just my 2c. 1: https://news.opensuse.org/2024/11/20/upgrade-to-freedom-the-switch-from-wind... -- Br, A.
Before Plymouth appeared there was a boot option to set text/graphic boot "progress". What ever happened to that? It worked just fine. Leslie On Thursday 28 November 2024 13:28:24 Frank Krüger via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Hi there,
After the recent mess with plymouth, I wonder if it is still needed in Tumbleweed.
Regards, Frank
On 2024-12-03 04:23, J Leslie Turriff via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Before Plymouth appeared there was a boot option to set text/graphic boot "progress". What ever happened to that? It worked just fine.
I think that was with Lilo. Lilo went away, so it can not be used. There was a cute boot menu with penguins moving around that appeared around Xmas. A shame that it is impossible now. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. composed on 2024-12-03 13:59 (UTC+0100):
J Leslie Turriff wrote:
Before Plymouth appeared there was a boot option to set text/graphic boot "progress". What ever happened to that? It worked just fine.
I think that was with Lilo. Lilo went away, so it can not be used.
There was a cute boot menu with penguins moving around that appeared around Xmas. A shame that it is impossible now.
I still see it several days most weeks here. All my BIOS/MBR installations (the vast majority of my PCs) still use it, courtesy of multiboot keeping old releases installed, only one bootloader per PC, Grub Legacy, and Gfxboot, as modified by "gfxboot --change-config penguin=100"[1]. Grub2 here is only installed on UEFI installations, very bland by comparison, with systemd-boot installed on none. [1] https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Gfxboot -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Am Dienstag, 3. Dezember 2024, 04:23:48 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit schrieb J Leslie Turriff via openSUSE Factory:
Before Plymouth appeared there was a boot option to set text/graphic boot "progress". What ever happened to that? It worked just fine.
Obviously I'm missing something in this discussion. Why don't you just add plymouth.enable=0 to the optional parameters for booting and you are done?
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 17:34:30 +0100, AW wrote:
Am Dienstag, 3. Dezember 2024, 04:23:48 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit schrieb J Leslie Turriff via openSUSE Factory:
Before Plymouth appeared there was a boot option to set text/graphic boot "progress". What ever happened to that? It worked just fine.
Obviously I'm missing something in this discussion. Why don't you just add
plymouth.enable=0
to the optional parameters for booting and you are done?
... and keep a lot of packages installed which you don't want ;-) Cheers. l8er manfred
On 2024-12-03 19:03, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024, 17:34:30 +0100, AW wrote:
Am Dienstag, 3. Dezember 2024, 04:23:48 Mitteleuropäische Normalzeit schrieb J Leslie Turriff via openSUSE Factory:
Before Plymouth appeared there was a boot option to set text/graphic boot "progress". What ever happened to that? It worked just fine.
Obviously I'm missing something in this discussion. Why don't you just add
plymouth.enable=0
to the optional parameters for booting and you are done?
... and keep a lot of packages installed which you don't want ;-)
And increases significantly the size of initrd. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
participants (23)
-
-pj -
Andreas Vetter -
Andrei Borzenkov -
ASSI -
Attila Pinter -
AW -
Carlos E. R. -
Dominik George -
Dr. Werner Fink -
Eric Schirra -
Felix Miata -
Frank Krüger -
H.Merijn Brand -
Ianseeks -
J Leslie Turriff -
Jan Engelhardt -
Javier Llorente -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Manfred Hollstein -
Martin Schröder -
Michael Pujos -
Michal Suchánek -
Thomas Zimmermann