Hello, I see, that updates for 10.1 appeared on mirrors. I have some questions about it: - is this for beta8 or for factory? With factory they fail to install... - is it possible to chose a mirror during installation? I would prefer to use 192.168.X.X, my local update mirror instead of a randomly chosen mirror which needs my ADSL to get downloaded... I can't find your answer any more, but could it be solved before release, that one does not have to fix dependency problems one-by-one? It takes a lot more time and clicks and would give a much better overview of problems. A summary page with all problems would be much more efficient. Bye, -- CzP http://peter.czanik.hu/
Peter Czanik <pczanik@fang.fa.gau.hu> writes:
Hello, I see, that updates for 10.1 appeared on mirrors. I have some questions about it: - is this for beta8 or for factory? With factory they fail to install...
Should be for factory - but is not...
- is it possible to chose a mirror during installation? I would prefer to use 192.168.X.X, my local update mirror instead of a randomly chosen mirror which needs my ADSL to get downloaded...
You have to change that manually.
I can't find your answer any more, but could it be solved before release, that one does not have to fix dependency problems one-by-one? It takes a lot more time and clicks and would give a much better overview of problems. A summary page with all problems would be much more efficient. Bye,
We will not be able to do this for 10.1 :-( Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Hello, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
- is it possible to chose a mirror during installation? I would prefer to use 192.168.X.X, my local update mirror instead of a randomly chosen mirror which needs my ADSL to get downloaded...
You have to change that manually.
But where? I could not find a dialog for mirror selection during installation. Or if I want to use a local mirror, then I should skip it during installation, choose an update mirror when installation is ready, and update then?
I can't find your answer any more, but could it be solved before release, that one does not have to fix dependency problems one-by-one? It takes a lot more time and clicks and would give a much better overview of problems. A summary page with all problems would be much more efficient. Bye,
We will not be able to do this for 10.1 :-(
This is very bad news :-( Bye, CzP
Andreas
-- CzP http://peter.czanik.hu/
Peter Czanik <pczanik@fang.fa.gau.hu> writes:
Hello,
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
- is it possible to chose a mirror during installation? I would prefer to use 192.168.X.X, my local update mirror instead of a randomly chosen mirror which needs my ADSL to get downloaded...
You have to change that manually.
But where? I could not find a dialog for mirror selection during installation. Or if I want to use a local mirror, then I should skip it during installation, choose an update mirror when installation is ready, and update then?
Please file a bug for this so that it can be tracked... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
I can't find your answer any more, but could it be solved before release, that one does not have to fix dependency problems one-by-one? It takes a lot more time and clicks and would give a much better overview of problems. A summary page with all problems would be much more efficient. Bye,
We will not be able to do this for 10.1 :-(
Andreas
Seems to be a blocker that is ignored :-(. How much time is it gonna take to fix that so we have summary-pages again? Azerion
On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:27:51PM +0100, Azerion wrote:
I can't find your answer any more, but could it be solved before release, that one does not have to fix dependency problems one-by-one? It takes a lot more time and clicks and would give a much better overview of problems. A summary page with all problems would be much more efficient. Bye,
We will not be able to do this for 10.1 :-(
Andreas
Seems to be a blocker that is ignored :-(. How much time is it gonna take to
This is not a blocker. It is annoying but not more. It does not prevent a user from installing the system or single packages. If _this_ was considered a blocker then almost every bug would be one as well and you would _never_ ship a release.
fix that so we have summary-pages again?
Nobody knows in advance but you can just do a patch on your own and you will see how long it does take. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@uni-mannheim.de "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2006 13:56, schreef Robert Schiele:
On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:27:51PM +0100, Azerion wrote:
I can't find your answer any more, but could it be solved before release, that one does not have to fix dependency problems one-by-one? It takes a lot more time and clicks and would give a much better overview of problems. A summary page with all problems would be much more efficient. Bye,
We will not be able to do this for 10.1 :-(
Andreas
Seems to be a blocker that is ignored :-(. How much time is it gonna take to
This is not a blocker. It is annoying but not more. It does not prevent a user from installing the system or single packages.
Do will call it annoying when you have 20 dependencies that you have to fix one by one? Trust me, a new or almost new SUSE Linux-user won't understand that thought. We want SUSE to be a distro for all people, we want to make it easy to use....this is not.
If _this_ was considered a blocker then almost every bug would be one as well and you would _never_ ship a release.
Yeah, cause all those little bugs are in the packagemanager that is the hart of the operating system...no? The hart of the system should be perfect and polished. Dependencies are allready difficult on their own for people that don't know anything or just a little about SUSE Linux.
fix that so we have summary-pages again? Nobody knows in advance but you can just do a patch on your own and you will see how long it does take.
Hahaha, not.
Robert
Do you even smile when you post? I allways tried not to reply on youre posts but it is becoming more then annoying that you always approach thing in the negative way. Try to contribute some post with positive comments :-D. Have to say that I admire you're work with you're repo. Azerion
On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 02:08:16PM +0100, Azerion wrote:
Do will call it annoying when you have 20 dependencies that you have to fix one by one? Trust me, a new or almost new SUSE Linux-user won't understand that thought. We want SUSE to be a distro for all people, we want to make it easy to use....this is not.
Almost new SUSE Linux user will just install with default selections without ever seeing dependency problems, won't he? Sure we want a product to be usable in an easy way but _this_ bug is just not a bug that justifies to stop the world turning around. You don't reject a new car at your car dealer just because there is not enough air in the tires. It is quite annoying to drive a car that does not have enough air in the tires but you can easily work around the problem by filling more air into. You can work around _this_ problem here by just doing some more clicks or just using a standard selection.
Yeah, cause all those little bugs are in the packagemanager that is the hart of the operating system...no? The hart of the system should be perfect and
Sure. And in a perfect world nobody should have to die and there should be no deseases, everybody is everybody's friend and the food should directly grow into your mouth. --- Unfortunately the world is far from perfect and there are some drawbacks. One of these drawbacks is that newly developed software has bugs that you have to live with until someone fixes them. Just declaring bugs that can be worked around as blockers does not move the world forward because it might happen that delaying the product might do more harm to people than living with some bugs they could work around.
Do you even smile when you post? I allways tried not to reply on youre posts but it is becoming more then annoying that you always approach thing in the negative way. Try to contribute some post with positive comments :-D.
What do you think is negative in my posts? The fact that my opinion is sometimes different from yours? But if this is helpful for you: :-))))))))))))))))))
Have to say that I admire you're work with you're repo.
Thanks. Unfortunately my repository is not available without suffering from my comments on a regular basis. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@uni-mannheim.de "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Almost new SUSE Linux user will just install with default selections without ever seeing dependency problems, won't he?
For the first 3 days: yes.
Sure we want a product to be usable in an easy way but _this_ bug is just not a bug that justifies to stop the world turning around. You don't reject a new car at your car dealer just because there is not enough air in the tires. It is quite annoying to drive a car that does not have enough air in the tires but you can easily work around the problem by filling more air into.
No, but I will reject a car that won't start by turning the key once but only if you turn the key 5 times. It is not more than annoying but it does not give me faith in the rest of the car.
Yeah, cause all those little bugs are in the packagemanager that is the hart of the operating system...no? The hart of the system should be perfect and
Sure. And in a perfect world nobody should have to die and there should be no deseases, everybody is everybody's friend and the food should directly grow into your mouth. --- Unfortunately the world is far from perfect and there are some drawbacks. One of these drawbacks is that newly developed software has bugs that you have to live with until someone fixes them. Just declaring bugs that can be worked around as blockers does not move the world forward because it might happen that delaying the product might do more harm to people than living with some bugs they could work around.
Sure. And because we live in an imperfect world where bugs exist and in a world that you can 'work around' we should not polish SUSE-releases. We just have to live with the problems and work around them. Who is harmed when 10.1 is delayed?
What do you think is negative in my posts? The fact that my opinion is sometimes different from yours?
No, the fact that it is alway like you have a bad mood. I mean: can't be serious abut that perfect-world story from you.
But if this is helpful for you: :-))))))))))))))))))
Have to say that I admire you're work with you're repo.
Thanks. Unfortunately my repository is not available without suffering from my comments on a regular basis.
So if I stop using it you stop with the negative reactions? I stopped right away.
Robert
Azerion
Azerion <azerion@gmail.com> writes:
[...] Who is harmed when 10.1 is delayed?
Let me just answer this question - and comment on your specific problem: I'm surprised that you see this 20 times, I never had it more than once or twice - and I do install a lot. So, if during *install* of packages, you get the box that often (20 times?), then something looks broken with what you're doing - or the packages. So, when do you encounter this? Everything is open source, so patches are welcome to implement this. Our developers are working on getting everything working correctly - and spend long days and weekends on this. I consider the open issues more important than this issue - and would like to give all of us some "normal" days and well-earned vacation as well. So, this is not a blocker for me - it's from the usability point of view not good at all and should be improved - and therefore let's put this on the list for 10.2. We've delayed 10.1 already for some time - and SUSE Linux is not just a software that is released to the ftp server but also a product that will be sold on the market which gives us extra challenges: So, our sales and operations people have to do a lot of logistics: Reserving slots in the fab, getting manuals printed, getting boxes printed, putting media and manuals into the box - and then shipping it to distributors that ship it to shops. The distributors and shops have to get informed about a release, order boxes and sell them - and we have to do marketing as well... - and a delay would have an impact on the boxes sold, remember Novell has it's stockholders. On the other hand, shipping a product that's so broken that nobody wants to buy it is even worth - and that's why I asked initially about the state of the product and how you perceive it. I listen to you - and went today to most of our developers and asked them on their view of 10.1 and got from most a "go ahead" - and make then a decision and somebody will not agree with me it but I have to make one. Delay is one option, shifting priorities is another one - and then there are bugs that you only find after people have used the product for a couple of months, or newly found security holes - and that's why we need patches handling (online update)... cheers, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2006 18:43, schreef Andreas Jaeger:
Azerion <azerion@gmail.com> writes:
[...] Who is harmed when 10.1 is delayed?
Let me just answer this question - and comment on your specific problem:
I'm surprised that you see this 20 times, I never had it more than once or twice - and I do install a lot. So, if during *install* of packages, you get the box that often (20 times?), then something looks broken with what you're doing - or the packages. So, when do you encounter this?
A broken install (if something goes wrong) does show you lot of messages :). I know the install should not be broken and in the normal situation it isn't but IF it happens you should fix it without a mouse-arm. But okey, point taken.
Everything is open source, so patches are welcome to implement this. Our developers are working on getting everything working correctly - and spend long days and weekends on this. I consider the open issues more important than this issue - and would like to give all of us some "normal" days and well-earned vacation as well.
Well, that one is also something you should consider. The devvers are allready a long time in overload-mode to finish this product. If I know something about most devvers is that if they have worked at 150% for a lng time they almost collaps if the product is finished. After that they are broken and for the devvers with family and friend times like this are not so funny.... Having more time before release would take some of the pressure of the team/process and I think it will be healthy for a lot of devvers and their families. But looking at the points here under I understand that delaying again is impossible. Maybe we should not only freeze the program-versions @ beta1 but also the featureset so coming up with 'this has to be in it, no matter what and no matter how hrad you have to work for it' is not possible anymore.
So, this is not a blocker for me - it's from the usability point of view not good at all and should be improved - and therefore let's put this on the list for 10.2.
Okey, point 2 that I have to take.
We've delayed 10.1 already for some time - and SUSE Linux is not just a software that is released to the ftp server but also a product that will be sold on the market which gives us extra challenges:
So, our sales and operations people have to do a lot of logistics: Reserving slots in the fab, getting manuals printed, getting boxes printed, putting media and manuals into the box - and then shipping it to distributors that ship it to shops. The distributors and shops have to get informed about a release, order boxes and sell them - and we have to do marketing as well... - and a delay would have an impact on the boxes sold, remember Novell has it's stockholders.
Darn, taking this third punt also :-P
On the other hand, shipping a product that's so broken that nobody wants to buy it is even worth - and that's why I asked initially about the state of the product and how you perceive it. I listen to you - and went today to most of our developers and asked them on their view of 10.1 and got from most a "go ahead" - and make then a decision and somebody will not agree with me it but I have to make one. Delay is one option, shifting priorities is another one - and then there are bugs that you only find after people have used the product for a couple of months, or newly found security holes - and that's why we need patches handling (online update)...
Well, I have seen today that a lot of bugs have being fixed in the last days. (probably some of the bugs finally are marked as duplicates of hidden but fixed items). So with some weeks to go I think we are gonna make it. But shit, why am I overruled by you're explanation......? ;-) Azerion
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Azerion <azerion@gmail.com> writes:
[...] Who is harmed when 10.1 is delayed?
Let me just answer this question - and comment on your specific problem:
I'm surprised that you see this 20 times, I never had it more than once or twice - and I do install a lot. So, if during *install* of packages, you get the box that often (20 times?), then something looks broken with what you're doing - or the packages. So, when do you encounter this?
Select zzz_all and say install all packages in this list. You will have a lot of conflicts. If want to install more than one machine, this is really annoying. Ahh, the export/import function for the package selection is still missing, or will it be in RC1? Bye, -- Andreas Klein Andreas.C.Klein@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de
On 24 Mar 2006 at 18:43, Andreas Jaeger wrote: [an explanation of scheduling and marketing issues, as well as developers' perspective of the current state] Well, maybe the lesson learned is this: Then the schedule is up, and a beta is due, the features should be frozen. Swapping horses in the middle of a river... ah no the wrong citate... changing package managers in the middle of a beta was a very bad decision, specifically as it was not read for production use when being introduced. I hope Novell/SuSE learned this lessson before it is is too late. Regards, Ulrich
"Ulrich Windl" <ulrich.windl@rz.uni-regensburg.de> writes:
On 24 Mar 2006 at 18:43, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
[an explanation of scheduling and marketing issues, as well as developers' perspective of the current state]
Well,
maybe the lesson learned is this: Then the schedule is up, and a beta is due, the features should be frozen. Swapping horses in the middle of a river... ah no the wrong citate... changing package managers in the middle of a beta was a very bad decision, specifically as it was not read for production use when being introduced.
I agree.
I hope Novell/SuSE learned this lessson before it is is too late.
I hope we learned even more than that... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 02:47:18PM +0100, Robert Schiele wrote:
Almost new SUSE Linux user will just install with default selections without ever seeing dependency problems, won't he?
Almost all will start to install non-default software. At least the ones that I know. The fist question they ask is: where can I find application X?
You don't reject a new car at your car dealer just because there is not enough air in the tires.
Yes, I would. If they can not even take care of that, I will asume that the rest is a big mess as well.
It is quite annoying to drive a car that does not have enough air in the tires but you can easily work around the problem by filling more air into.
I would expect that either the factory or the place where I pick up my car would take care of that.
You can work around _this_ problem here by just doing some more clicks or just using a standard selection.
Sure, you can work around it. However it is not something I would expect of a new version, especially when you know the problem is there. There are so many small problems that are mentioned around the new installer that I can not see it being ready. A lot of negative press will be the result, just because people want to press this through and say that either the user should just do deafult or be a Linux wizzard.
What do you think is negative in my posts? The fact that my opinion is sometimes different from yours?
No, the fact that you do not listen to anybody and just go on and on, without listening. It is as if you are saying: I don't care, I am the person who decides and I do what I want. Not much `open` from your side. If there are things where you have changed your mind due to what people from outside told, please forgive me. It just seems as if you are not listening, thats all. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
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On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 02:47:18PM +0100, Robert Schiele wrote:
Almost new SUSE Linux user will just install with default selections without ever seeing dependency problems, won't he?
Almost all will start to install non-default software. At least the ones that I know. The fist question they ask is: where can I find application X?
You don't reject a new car at your car dealer just because there is not enough air in the tires.
Yes, I would. If they can not even take care of that, I will asume that the rest is a big mess as well.
It is quite annoying to drive a car that does not have enough air in the tires but you can easily work around the problem by filling more air into.
I would expect that either the factory or the place where I pick up my car would take care of that.
You can work around _this_ problem here by just doing some more clicks or just using a standard selection.
Sure, you can work around it. However it is not something I would expect of a new version, especially when you know the problem is there. There are so many small problems that are mentioned around the new installer that I can not see it being ready.
A lot of negative press will be the result, just because people want to press this through and say that either the user should just do deafult or be a Linux wizzard.
This is the point I was trying to make as well. The people I have been able to convert to SUSE Linux have come to expect a polished great product. From the looks of things now that polished product is very tarnished. It is not just one bug but many little bugs that all surrond the common problem added very late in the release cycle. The package manager or the Display problems. I too have old HW and this X thing is very annoying. I think if it were only one little problem we would live with it. But it is many little problems that tarnish the reputation of SUSE/Novell. Releasing this in this state will cause a lot more harm than waiting and fixing them. I think an explaination that a new packager Manager was necessary to meet the goals would pacifiy many on the news of a release date change. Sure there would be some news but, that will be minor compared to what may happen. It takes a long time to gain the great reputation that SUSE currently has. But all that can be undone with a premature release. Or one catastophic bad release as this appears to me right now. - -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/ iD8DBQFEJBLSVtBjDid73eYRAq/2AJsEEsDWbyRqTp//tX/hNwbKb3wKJQCdHOUz RvcKnAoR39ONwTeTFdEqcoQ= =1SYK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 24 Mar 2006 at 13:27, Azerion wrote:
I can't find your answer any more, but could it be solved before release, that one does not have to fix dependency problems one-by-one? It takes a lot more time and clicks and would give a much better overview of problems. A summary page with all problems would be much more efficient. Bye,
We will not be able to do this for 10.1 :-(
Andreas
Seems to be a blocker that is ignored :-(. How much time is it gonna take to fix that so we have summary-pages again?
Reminds me of a bug in GIMP when there was a popup to confirm for every block GIMP couldn't write to disk when the filesystem was full. They got rid of it quite soon (for a very good reason). Regards, Ulrich
participants (8)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Andreas Klein -
Azerion -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
houghi -
Peter Czanik -
Robert Schiele -
Ulrich Windl