On 23/04/12 13:27, C wrote:

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 14:07, Sid Boyce wrote:

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Recently I have tried using Asus Sabertooth 990FX and Gigabyte 990FX motherboards and experienced problems.

They both need IOMMU disabled in the BIOS in order to boot. Interesting. I've got a Gigabyte 990 motherboard in my current computer, and I didn't need to disable IOMMU to get it to boot. IOMMU has been around for years... what kernel version were you having issues with?

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The Gigabyte board works with both the nouveau and the proprietary NVidia driver. Same here. I've got a NVidia GTX260 plugged into the Gigabyte motherboard and had no issues with the Nouveau or the NVidia proprietary drivers (from the oS repos).

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Any comments or recommendations on Linux compatible motherboards with modern chipsets.

Intel a better solution that AMD perhaps? I'm using an AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition in a Gigabye990FX board on my main PC and it's been rock solid. I had no issues installing openSUSE 12.1.

Intel vs AMD... it's always a tossup. AMD is cheaper... whether that's good or not could be argued for a few months without resolution :-) I use both... and both work fine.

C. Perhaps the 990FX is different to the 990. The motherboard is the GA-990XA-UD3 and it works with either nouveau or the proprietary NVidia driver. Vidieo cards GeForce 8600GT and 560Ti both OK. Just the quirk where IOMMU has to be disabled in the BIOS. Regards Sid.

-- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 23/04/12 13:30, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

On 23.04.2012 14:07, Sid Boyce wrote:

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Any comments or recommendations on Linux compatible motherboards with modern chipsets.

Please discuss this on the general support list and not here. This list is about development of the next openSUSE version and not about your hardware problems. Thanks in advance.

Henne

Thanks, Noted, I'll subscribe. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 23/04/12 17:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-04-23 15:11, Sid Boyce wrote:

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Thanks, Noted, I'll subscribe. Regards If you test your hardware with the factory version, then it will be on-topic here ;-)

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) It's probably not a problem exclusively with factory.

It's with factory as always, that why I automatically posted here. If I do new builds I start with the latest available, this time with the Milestone 3 DVD then switch repos to factory and zypper dup. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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On 23.04.2012 14:07, Sid Boyce wrote:

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Any comments or recommendations on Linux compatible motherboards with modern chipsets.

Please discuss this on the general support list and not here. This list is about development of the next openSUSE version and not about your hardware problems. Thanks in advance.

Henne, just to clarify - surely this list is also for reporting/ discussing problems with current Factory? That's a bit of a complicated question, I'd say. Do we expect people having issues with factory to file a bug in bugzilla or send a mail here? Will we get overrun with mails here if we ask for the latter? Do we pick up on the

On Tuesday 24 April 2012 21:46:40 Per Jessen wrote: former? Do we only want developer chat here, as in - developer to developer? On the other hand, usually it's going quite OK - there are a few exceptions and there's a number of people here who are just contributing opinions instead of work, but overall it's work work. I do personally think it would be good to define this informally a bit more, so we also know what to say to people. Just a few words on the factory wiki page or in the welcome mail for new subscribers - nothing big of course. Possibly worth having a good, long chat about at a conference (to prevent a nice, long bikeshed here). I'll bring it up at oSC.

On 25/04/12 11:53, Per Jessen wrote:

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

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On Tuesday 24 April 2012 21:46:40 Per Jessen wrote:

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Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Any comments or recommendations on Linux compatible motherboards with modern chipsets. Please discuss this on the general support list and not here. This

On 23.04.2012 14:07, Sid Boyce wrote: list is about development of the next openSUSE version and not about your hardware problems. Thanks in advance. Henne, just to clarify - surely this list is also for reporting/ discussing problems with current Factory? That's a bit of a complicated question, I'd say. Do we expect people having issues with factory to file a bug in bugzilla or send a mail here? Personally I often write a bugreport, but before I do that, I try to gauge if the problem is something minor that someone will be able to sort out over email.

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Will we get overrun with mails here if we ask for the latter? Do we pick up on the former? Do we only want developer chat here, as in - developer to developer?

On the other hand, usually it's going quite OK That is my impression too, that's why I was surprised to see Hennes comment.

With the wealth and range of experience here, I initially float my questions here in case others have encountered the same problems. At least I got some response from this list, none so far from the openSUSE amd64 list. At times there has been a complete lack of responses from this list which I take as a sign that the problem lies elsewhere and often it has been, I'd say in 99.x% of cases. If it's not a common problem in openSUSE I post to alsa-developers, linux-kernel, VirtualBox, NVidia or wherever appropriate upstream. There was one problem I reported to linux-kernel a few years ago and was promptly referred back to openSUSE with "What makes you think it's a kernel problem? consult your distro". I'd done sufficient analysis to know it was a kernel problem and as it turned out there was a logical operator error in one C file that had been there in the kernel for at least 2 years and caused Linus to remark that amazingly it didn't bite until just then and only on my box. Two weeks after I posted, one other guy hit the same problem and by then I'd tested the fix from Len Brown (it was his code) and it was a good fix. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hey Per, On 04/24/2012 09:46 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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On 23.04.2012 14:07, Sid Boyce wrote:

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Any comments or recommendations on Linux compatible motherboards with modern chipsets.

Please discuss this on the general support list and not here. This list is about development of the next openSUSE version and not about your hardware problems. Thanks in advance.

Henne, just to clarify - surely this list is also for reporting/ discussing problems with current Factory?

Reporting no, use Bugzilla. Discussing yes, preferably a discussion among the people that do something about it (the developers). Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE http://www.hennevogel.de Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 25 April 2012 16:09:24 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-04-25 15:51, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Hey Per,

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Henne, just to clarify - surely this list is also for reporting/ discussing problems with current Factory?

Reporting no, use Bugzilla.

Do you mean that we have to report all issues in Bugzilla, without asking first here our peers whether it is a read bug?

Basically, I think it is something like this: - if an experienced tester (user or developer) who is capable of determining the root cause mails here and helps dig out the issue and test possible solutions, it's appreciated - if an unexperienced newby asks about an issue he/she has, it costs a lot of time but the devs are often nice enough to work with him/her. - if hundreds of such newbies would show up we couldn't work anymore.

Bugzilla is overpowered, I have issues without attention for years.

In theory, yes, all issues probably should go via bugzilla. In practice, I know we don't work like that and that's why I said its worth discussing. We need to think about how we want to work.

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Discussing yes, preferably a discussion among the people that do something about it (the developers).

I disagree, users also do something about it by simply testing. Discouraging users from participation is a bad idea.

It's not about that. It is about signal/noise ratio. If there is too much uninformed/irrelevant chatter this mailing list becomes useless and openSUSE development comes to a grinding halt. We don't want that so we have to protect the usefulness of this list. How exactly, and what we consider noise etc - that's the unclear (or at least wholy undocumented and implicit) part. We are all aware that someone who doesn't know anything now and thus is chased of the list might have become an incredibly valuable tester 3 months from now... We need to take that case into consideration. There are some possible ways out of this. For example: === testers hang out on a separate list, discuss problems and help each other find the root cause and filter out non-bugs. 'real' bugs are then brought to the developers via either bugzilla (? with a special "verified" flag?) or directly to the factory ML via a few 'gatekeepers'. === It is a rather formalized solution, not really in openSUSE spirit, but it is something which scales far better than our current solution (all on this list). We, as a project, are growing, and this list will become more and more crowded. Anyway. I'm just trying to illustrate we need to think about this and talk about it in person - there are solutions but we can't pick one easily, certainly not over a mailing list with all its associated limitations (if only because this is wholy off-topic for -factory). One last thing: all this has nothing to do with not appreciating the testing or help by non-developers. We do appreciate it, we just need to find the proper channels to not over-crowd our list(s) to the point where we can't get any work done anymore. Cheers, Jos

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:21:16 +0200 Christian Boltz wrote:

Hello,

Am Donnerstag, 26. April 2012 schrieb Jos Poortvliet:

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On Wednesday 25 April 2012 16:09:24 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Do you mean that we have to report all issues in Bugzilla, without asking first here our peers whether it is a read bug?

Basically, I think it is something like this: - if an experienced tester (user or developer) who is capable of determining the root cause mails here and helps dig out the issue and test possible solutions, it's appreciated

Yes, of course, but that also works inside bugzilla (or even as SR ;-) and I tend to use bugzilla (or a SR) in such cases.

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- if an unexperienced newby asks about an issue he/she has, it costs a lot of time but the devs are often nice enough to work with him/her. - if hundreds of such newbies would show up we couldn't work anymore.

That's what is called a luxury problem ;-)

Let me add another "basically" section ;-)

If something is clearly a bug, go to bugzilla without asking on the mailinglist. Some examples: - a program crashes (and you have a reproducer) - you find a syntax error in an out-of-the-box^Wrpm config file - changed defaults that are a very bad idea (invented example: "kill $$" in /etc/bash.bashrc)

OTOH, there are things that can or even should be discussed. Some examples: - an issue/change where you are unsure if it is a bug or intentional - a program crashes _sometimes_ but you have no idea why it crashes and hope other people have a similar problem. - a changed default that is "only" annoying for your usecase

Basically you can sum that up to the question Do we need to discuss that or should it just be fixed?

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Bugzilla is overpowered, I have issues without attention for years.

In theory, yes, all issues probably should go via bugzilla. In practice, I know we don't work like that and that's why I said its worth discussing. We need to think about how we want to work.

What about "force developers to read bugzilla mails/work on their buglist regularly"? ;-)

Bugreports getting dusty is a real problem, and I'd love to present a nostrum how to fix that if I had one.

My personal solution is to sort the buglist by last modification date - having recently changed bugs on top helps to get fast response times. I'm doing this with bugs where I'm involved (as assignee, reporter or in CC), and it works.

Yes, I'm aware that most developers have more bugs assigned than I have with a handful of packages ;-) - nevertheless it might be worth a try.

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There are some possible ways out of this. For example: === testers hang out on a separate list, discuss problems and help each other find the root cause and filter out non-bugs.

Are you talking about the opensuse-testing mailinglist? ;-) (at the moment, you could also call it testing-team-announce without changing the ML content)

One problem is that a mailinglist won't work too good if you have only testers there and no developers - similar to why a newbies-only mailinglist can't work ;-)

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'real' bugs are then brought to the developers via either bugzilla (? with a special "verified" flag?)

You can already do that today - add a note "bug seen by at least 10 users, see discussion in $mailinglist at $url".

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or directly to the factory ML via a few 'gatekeepers'. ===

Which brings up the question who wants to do the gatekeeper "job". I'd expect it will be quite boring...

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It is a rather formalized solution, not really in openSUSE spirit, but it is something which scales far better than our current solution ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Except if you are one of the gatekeepers ;-) (In other words: I doubt this will work.)

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(all on this list). We, as a project, are growing, and this list will become more and more crowded.

I remember the opensuse-de mailinglist had up to 200 mails per day (it was called suse-linux back then, but that doesn't really matter). And the mailinglist worked quite well with this amount of mails.

opensuse-factory has an average of 17 mails per day[1], and this already includes at least one flamewar week ;-) I remember [2]

In other words: the amount of mails in opensuse-factory isn't a problem at the moment IMHO. The only thing I propose is to take flamewars to another mailinglist - but unfortunately I don't know how we can enforce that ;-)

Regards,

Christian Boltz

[1] around 2000 mails in 2012 until now

[2] no, I won't mention the topic - but I'll use a non-random sig that might help to avoid flamewars - at least if you understand german ;-)

As one of the infrequent posters to this list I would suggest the already suggested concept that a separate list (only for devs) be started and possibly have a moderator/senior_user sort posts on this list and forward the more serious/valid(?) to the devs list. That would reduce the number the devs would have to read and still allow testers to communicate per Christians criteria. Personally, I get a lot of useful information/help just from reading what others have posted and would miss that if it were changed to only include "serious" posts. Tom -- Tom Taylor - retired penguin AMD Phenom II x4 955 -- 4GB RAM -- 2x1.5TB sata3 openSUSE 12.1x86_64 openSUSE 12.2x86_64 KDE 4.6.00, FF 7.0 KDE 4.7.2, FF 10.0 claws-mail 3.8.0 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:26:25 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On 2012-04-27 00:04, Thomas Taylor wrote:

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As one of the infrequent posters to this list I would suggest the already suggested concept that a separate list (only for devs) be started and possibly have a moderator/senior_user sort posts on this list and forward the more serious/valid(?) to the devs list.

That would isolate devs on a marble castle with no contact with what the users see or think of their work.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

<<<<< snip >>>>> True, but they could either choose to read this list or have it forwarded to the devs list. I'm not suggesting they should be isolated but the feeling I got from previous posts in this thread is that some of the devs think there is too much noise here. Tom -- Tom Taylor - retired penguin AMD Phenom II x4 955 -- 4GB RAM -- 2x1.5TB sata3 openSUSE 12.1x86_64 openSUSE 12.2x86_64 KDE 4.6.00, FF 7.0 KDE 4.7.2, FF 10.0 claws-mail 3.8.0 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 26 April 2012 16:11:36 Steven Hess wrote:

On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote:

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On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:26:25 +0200

"Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On 2012-04-27 00:04, Thomas Taylor wrote:

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As one of the infrequent posters to this list I would suggest the already suggested concept that a separate list (only for devs) be started and possibly have a moderator/senior_user sort posts on this list and forward the more serious/valid(?) to the devs list.

That would isolate devs on a marble castle with no contact with what the users see or think of their work.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

<<<<< snip >>>>>

True, but they could either choose to read this list or have it forwarded to the devs list. I'm not suggesting they should be isolated but the feeling I got from previous posts in this thread is that some of the devs think there is too much noise here.

Tom

-- Tom Taylor - retired penguin AMD Phenom II x4 955 -- 4GB RAM -- 2x1.5TB sata3 openSUSE 12.1x86_64 openSUSE 12.2x86_64 KDE 4.6.00, FF 7.0 KDE 4.7.2, FF 10.0 claws-mail 3.8.0 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Some Devs don't want any input or contact with the users at all. It's up to the users to moderate the list and suggest people refrain from certain things. The devs can't be allowed to be isolated from all user input.

Actually, I disagree. We've got a number of packagers who work diligently on certain packages but otherwise do not engage much if anything with others. I'm all for *encouraging* them to be more communicative but I strongly oppose *forcing* them. As long as devs abide by our code of conduct/guiding principles we have no right to tell them what to do. We're still a *do-ocracy* and it's the work that counts, not the talking.

If they don't like that its a personal problem not a list problem.

Well, if people *who do work* walk away because of too much noise (often perceived to be coming from those who *don't do the work*, true or not) it is *openSUSE* which has a problem. Let's get this straight: I'd much rather have 10 people maintaining packages who don't communicate than 100 people 'contributing their opinion' on this list. As I've said before - ideas are cheap, opinions are cheap, talk is cheap. Packaging work is not. :D

The last thing opensuse needs is another list True...

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:38:57 +0530, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

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Some Devs don't want any input or contact with the users at all. It's up to the users to moderate the list and suggest people refrain from certain things. The devs can't be allowed to be isolated from all user input. Actually, I disagree. We've got a number of packagers who work diligently on certain packages but otherwise do not engage much if anything with others. I'm all for *encouraging* them to be more communicative but I strongly oppose *forcing* them. As long as devs abide by our code of conduct/guiding principles we have no right to tell them what to do. We're still a *do-ocracy* and it's the work that counts, not the talking.

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If they don't like that its a personal problem not a list problem. Well, if people *who do work* walk away because of too much noise (often perceived to be coming from those who *don't do the work*, true or not) it is *openSUSE* which has a problem. Let's get this straight: I'd much rather have 10 people maintaining packages who don't communicate than 100 people 'contributing their opinion' on this list. As I've said before - ideas are cheap, opinions are cheap, talk is cheap. Packaging work is not.

i completely agree that those who do the work should be the ones deciding what happens on this list. at the same time, interaction with users can help, specially if they're of the more knowledgable type, and don't tend to go on week-long rants that can't be stopped until board members get excited. i don't really remember who the driving forces were behind the last few flame wars i've seen here, but there should be a way to stop this from happening. moderating the list isn't a good idea since it stiffles not only bad stuff, but everything, and having yet another list would make everything more confusing. what about a different type of moderation, where some 'senior' and trusted members have the ability to ban certain people from posting for a limited period, couple weeks or even months, if they don't react to friendly advice? this should probably be applied to non-dev.s mainly, since those doing the work have earned the right for a bit mis-behavior once in a while -- we're all human, after all. but people who aren't really productive should feel a bit less free to express their moods on a list that's meant for work, as opposed to the general user list or offtopic. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-04-28 at 19:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-04-28 18:00, phanisvara das wrote:

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what about a different type of moderation,

The forums are moderated. Perhaps what we need is migrate us all to a forum with nntp ;-)

Would probably be more efficient. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 25/04/12 14:51, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey Per,

On 04/24/2012 09:46 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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On 23.04.2012 14:07, Sid Boyce wrote:

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Any comments or recommendations on Linux compatible motherboards with modern chipsets. Please discuss this on the general support list and not here. This list is about development of the next openSUSE version and not about your hardware problems. Thanks in advance. Henne, just to clarify - surely this list is also for reporting/ discussing problems with current Factory? Reporting no, use Bugzilla.

Discussing yes, preferably a discussion among the people that do something about it (the developers).

Henne

Bugzilla if it's something that can be fixed in code which is not the case for an issue like I mentioned. It was basically to see if others could advise on similar hardware that runs the distro without such issues and that only one person has commented on. All other responses have forked to a tangential discussion about what topics are allowed on the list. What I had hope for, responses saying -- I am running such and such a 64-bit AMD or Intel motherboard/CPU/Video card with no issues. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org