On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:

On Friday 07 March 2008, Rastislav Krupanský said:

...

So that, while KDE 4.1 will still be under development and not even really have all the features, wouldn´t it be better to stay with 3.5.x as default KDE? Why is KDE 4.0.x replaced KDE 3.5.x as default KDE?

It's not just a 1:1 replacement. The default KDE will be KDE 4.0.x PLUS the KDE 3.5.9 applications that are not yet ready in KDE 4.

I think there will be always possibility to install latest backported KDE 4.x from Build Service repos KDE:KDE4:STABLE:* . Regards Ladislav.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schlander schrieb: | No final decision has been made yet. But the reasoning is probably that it's | assumed that most users will want KDE4.x. Despite it's obvious and well-known | shortcomings, KDE4.0 also has a lot of nice things. The devs are working hard | to make it as usable as possible. You can help with feedback and testing. Wow, I thought the decision had been made. I thought because it would seem inconsistent to tell people to be an KDE4 early adaptor in 10.3 but ~ to not use KDE4 per default in 11.0. So this is good news. | | KDE3 will under all circumstances be an option on the dvd, and possibly even | on a special KDE3 cd. That is good to hear too. | | Might also want to keep track of this wiki page: | http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/KDE_on_openSUSE11.0 I was not aware of that page. Just my general point of view. There are very clear main reasons for switching from Windows to openSUSE from what I see heuristically: 1. Easy to set up hardware (ironically) 2. A system that just works 3. Getting ridd of the feeling that one is being watched. Eye candy is just a secondary factor. What matters most to any user is a stable system. Yes, users tend to play with eyecandy once everything works, yes, they want to have the bleeding edge stuff like KDE4, but foremost, they want a stable system. The eye candy that KDE4 supplies will most likely not be used anyways, as users will want to use compiz-fusion instead, as they have heard more about it and this app focuses on eye candy (so it must be better in some eyes). Having KDE4 as main DE has got several backdrafts: 1. It is not ready. 2. It takes a lot of effort to make it ready. This solution openSUSE is taking is ugly from a technical standpoint as mixing kde3 and kde4 programms is just messy. No one really knows how KDE4 will be changed in the process of developing it and if everything will really work out compatibillity wise. How to port the Data from KDE3 to KDE4 once the KDE4 app is ready, etc, pp. There will be confusion and possibly data loss among unexperienced users. It is also ugly from a users standpoint, as one now has to use KDE3 software in a KDE4 framework. It will probably not look that good, feel different and break the user feeling of consistent and logical software (design wise). So I would like to see stable software that is usability wise consistent in the end product. Not a mincemeat software that somehow works. Offering KDE4 to be installed via repo is a valid option imho. Offering KDE4 and KDE3 at install, too, I just would not give the people the advice to install KDE4 on a regular box (and therefore I would not make it default, but a rather deprecated option). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH0SIsaQ44ga2xxAoRAstQAKDWuHo6uPDcbqwwLx5hIjlMvkg00ACgh6go 3FKIrTxI1ZiWswXvUU2XCY4= =NS0a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander schreef:

Fredag den 7. Marts 2008 12:08:30 skrev Felix-Nicolai Müller:

...

Having KDE4 as main DE has got several backdrafts: 1. It is not ready. 2. It takes a lot of effort to make it ready. This solution openSUSE is taking is ugly from a technical standpoint as mixing kde3 and kde4 programms is just messy. No one really knows how KDE4 will be changed in the process of developing it and if everything will really work out compatibillity wise. How to port the Data from KDE3 to KDE4 once the KDE4 app is ready, etc, pp. There will be confusion and possibly data loss among unexperienced users. It is also ugly from a users standpoint, as one now has to use KDE3 software in a KDE4 framework. It will probably not look that good, feel different and break the user feeling of consistent and logical software (design wise).

If users wanted a stable system why do they insist on always adding as many BS repos as humanly possible and 'zypper up -t package' more often than they brush their teeth?

As Justin Steinman and Ted Haeger have been telling everybody who would listen openSUSE users are "geeks and enthusiasts".

There are several benefits of having KDE4.x as main DE. 1. Many (most?) users want the latest greatest - even if it's rough and buggy - if openSUSE doesn't provide it easily they will go to Fedora and Kubuntu who does. 2. Using KDE4.x as default makes it easier for users to upgrade to 4.1.x later on when it's "ready" - from the BS repos. Remember that 11.0 will probably last for 7-9 months. 3. KDE4.0 has lots of eyecandy, but also many improvements in features and usabillity. 4. It will help make 11.1 the world domination release that I think it can become. 5. It'll help upstream KDE

However I'm fully in agreement that there will be huge problems. Choice between KDE3 and KDE4 at this point is a matter of pick your poison. Either we piss off the users that like to be productive, or we piss off the people that want to live on the bleeding edge.

If it were up to me I'd simply postpone release of 11.0 for 3-4 months so we could not only have 4.1.0, but maybe 4.1.2 - and drop KDE3 as a desktop. Of course some KDE3 apps would most likely still be needed.

Since that doesn't appear to be an option, something else must be done. We should communicate aggressively that people should think twice before installing 11.0 (with KDE4.0), and maybe they should even consider skipping 11.0 completely. But then again, that was tried for KDE4.0 and it seemed noone paid attention.. :-/

Personally I'm considering not moving to 11.0 on my main box until 4.1 is available in the BS. Time will tell how good 4.0 can become. And how much better 4.1 will actually be.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

A cent, or two.. Pro's/Con's, OK. Reality: KDE4 is developing so fast towards a usefull desktop, that it is almost incredible to believe... It is so nice to use this fast, totaly flexible and scalable desktop, that i hardly use the old 10.3 KDE3...anymore.. There are realy made achievements in speed in overall use, and i do not want to cheer to early, but i think that if this desktop 'realy' has been used, very few will long back to the past. The way i see it, it is not that 'very' important to get it 'totaly' bugfree, because that would simply be not possible, as there are still kde3 bugs now. And true: openSUSE 'bleeds', 'cause of the continuing adaption and development. The user chooses to be part of that, or not. But for those who want stability, there are 10.2 and 10.3, so there is not a real problem. As everybody is doing the best he/she can, i can only hope that there will be time left to get the 3 main 3th. party apps fully integrated before the 'launch', but if not: so be it. Than they will later.. And personaly, but that may be clear from me statements, it is only obvious to use KDE4, because from what i see every day, it gets better by the minute.. (no time to rest as ceasar yet;) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.24.1-6-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha2 KDE: 4.0.1 (KDE 4.0.1) "release 20" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 07 March 2008, Will Stephenson wrote:

On Friday 07 March 2008, Martin Schlander said:

...

If it were up to me I'd simply postpone release of 11.0 for 3-4 months so we could not only have 4.1.0, but maybe 4.1.2 - and drop KDE3 as a desktop. Of course some KDE3 apps would most likely still be needed.

Since that doesn't appear to be an option, something else must be done. We should communicate aggressively that people should think twice before installing 11.0 (with KDE4.0), and maybe they should even consider skipping 11.0 completely. But then again, that was tried for KDE4.0 and it seemed noone paid attention.. :-/

Personally I'm considering not moving to 11.0 on my main box until 4.1 is available in the BS. Time will tell how good 4.0 can become. And how much better 4.1 will actually be..

I'm interested to know, why do you think the plan that I summarized in my earlier mail in this thread won't meet your needs?

Will

I have only one interest in KDE4 on suse 11.0 will it be possible to install 11.0 with KDE 3.X.X only and NO KDE 4.X untill 4.X has the ability to be as good and flexible and NON Gnome-esk as KDE 3.X.X .. Have tried KDE 4.X on opensuse 11 and yea well the disc now has slam64 on it Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hello, peter nikolic írta:

I have only one interest in KDE4 on suse 11.0 will it be possible to install 11.0 with KDE 3.X.X only and NO KDE 4.X untill 4.X has the ability to be as good and flexible and NON Gnome-esk as KDE 3.X.X ..

Hehe, I was just about to write the same e-mail the other way around :-) I read about the plan to provide a mixed system, and would like to know, if it will be possible to install a purely KDE4 / QT4 system, without any KDE3 and QT3 libraries. The reason is quite simple: the KDE4/QT4 combo seems to be a lot more friendly on resources on a low end, low RAM machine. The new version runs just better with no or less swapping, where a KDE3/QT3 system definitely needs swapping. But this advantage is gone as soon as a KDE3 / QT3 app is loaded... Bye, CzP --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 07 March 2008, Martin Schlander wrote:

But actually I also doubt that 4.1 plasma will come very close to kicker+kdesktop feature and configuration parity with only ~2 months until feature freeze. :-(

well, it will not be kicker+kdesktop, because then we'd just use kicker+kdesktop instead of rewriting it, which is not a fun project. I see what you're saying though: You're missing a feature that you're used to and that you consider important and that is no longer there. Tell us that and it might be considered. Greetings, Dirk -- RPMLINT information under http://en.opensuse.org/Packaging/RpmLint --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Søndag den 9. Marts 2008 01:30:39 skrev Gerald Pfeifer:

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

If it were up to me I'd simply postpone release of 11.0 for 3-4 months so we could not only have 4.1.0, but maybe 4.1.2 - and drop KDE3 as a desktop. Of course some KDE3 apps would most likely still be needed.

Experience tells it hardly pays off to do some delay like this: First of all, how about those openSUSE users who use different desktops such as GNOME?

Of course you have a point, but keep in mind KDE users are >70%.

...

Personally I'm considering not moving to 11.0 on my main box until 4.1 is available in the BS.

Why couldn't you go to 11.0 but stick to KDE 3.x and move to 4.1 once available in the Build Service? (Which is just another concrete example of why the Build Service rocks, by the way! :-)

Just quite a bit of work first setting up everything in KDE3 and then move to KDE4 a few weeks later, and also a little messy. So maybe it's better to just wait. On the other hand there's a risk that 4.1 won't meet my minimum requirements, in that case waiting would be futile... Probably a bit early for these discussions anyway. It's mostly speculation about what may and may not happen at this point. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri 07 Mar 2008 23:21:36 NZDT +1300, Martin Schlander wrote:

assumed that most users will want KDE4.x. Despite it's obvious and well-known shortcomings, KDE4.0 also has a lot of nice things. The devs are working hard to make it as usable as possible. You can help with feedback

Lose the black background from the panel and everywhere else. The panel's difficult to read (contrast too high). Having semi-transparent black windows with a bit of thinly readable white text on top of black background with some barely visible white white of whatever just about tops it in unusability. Neither MS nor Apple ship something like that, and for good reason. Panel items can't be moved (KDE 3: right click, select move from popup). No konsole on the panel and no obvious way to put it there. I can't make up my mind about the new application launcher. The icon scheme looks fresh and easily recognisable. plasma of all users crashes when pulling the USB stick out. USB sticks are mounted with the user that has an active desktop session, making the switch-user function actually usable with portable devices :))) Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat 08 Mar 2008 04:12:04 NZDT +1300, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

Lose the black background from the panel and everywhere else. The panel's difficult to read (contrast too high).

We're considering alternate theming at the moment.

:) I don't mind more than one scheme, though I'm not sure if that's realistic as they seem to need more fine-tuning than is possible to do. In the past only the suse default scheme has been working properly in my limited experience. But if it's possible, why not have suse-workstation and suse-playstation schemes. The window decorations' colour change on mouse-over is good. It needs the (previous) blue colouring of the window title and frame back. Currently it is not at all apparent which the active window is. Boldfacing one word in the title doesn't do it. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat 08 Mar 2008 06:17:29 NZDT +1300, Dirk Mueller wrote: Thanks Dirk.

...

Lose the black background from the panel and everywhere else.

you can just install another SVG theme from e.g. kde-look.org. We will also most likely switch to another theme. Which one.. well, we need somebody with the skills to design one for us :)

What's wrong with the KDE3 one?

...

plasma of all users crashes when pulling the USB stick out.

there is a bugreport about that (bug 360059) which I cannot reproduce, please sign up there and give me information, like a usable backtrace.

Reproducible with right-now zypperdup factory. Segfault in __sym_ntos (libsolid), proper backtrace when I've worked out which debuginfos I need. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:

On Friday 07 March 2008, Rastislav Krupanský said:

...

So that, while KDE 4.1 will still be under development and not even really have all the features, wouldn´t it be better to stay with 3.5.x as default KDE? Why is KDE 4.0.x replaced KDE 3.5.x as default KDE?

It's not just a 1:1 replacement. The default KDE will be KDE 4.0.x PLUS the KDE 3.5.9 applications that are not yet ready in KDE 4.

I think there will be always possibility to install latest backported KDE 4.x from Build Service repos KDE:KDE4:STABLE:* . Regards Ladislav.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schlander schrieb: | No final decision has been made yet. But the reasoning is probably that it's | assumed that most users will want KDE4.x. Despite it's obvious and well-known | shortcomings, KDE4.0 also has a lot of nice things. The devs are working hard | to make it as usable as possible. You can help with feedback and testing. Wow, I thought the decision had been made. I thought because it would seem inconsistent to tell people to be an KDE4 early adaptor in 10.3 but ~ to not use KDE4 per default in 11.0. So this is good news. | | KDE3 will under all circumstances be an option on the dvd, and possibly even | on a special KDE3 cd. That is good to hear too. | | Might also want to keep track of this wiki page: | http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/KDE_on_openSUSE11.0 I was not aware of that page. Just my general point of view. There are very clear main reasons for switching from Windows to openSUSE from what I see heuristically: 1. Easy to set up hardware (ironically) 2. A system that just works 3. Getting ridd of the feeling that one is being watched. Eye candy is just a secondary factor. What matters most to any user is a stable system. Yes, users tend to play with eyecandy once everything works, yes, they want to have the bleeding edge stuff like KDE4, but foremost, they want a stable system. The eye candy that KDE4 supplies will most likely not be used anyways, as users will want to use compiz-fusion instead, as they have heard more about it and this app focuses on eye candy (so it must be better in some eyes). Having KDE4 as main DE has got several backdrafts: 1. It is not ready. 2. It takes a lot of effort to make it ready. This solution openSUSE is taking is ugly from a technical standpoint as mixing kde3 and kde4 programms is just messy. No one really knows how KDE4 will be changed in the process of developing it and if everything will really work out compatibillity wise. How to port the Data from KDE3 to KDE4 once the KDE4 app is ready, etc, pp. There will be confusion and possibly data loss among unexperienced users. It is also ugly from a users standpoint, as one now has to use KDE3 software in a KDE4 framework. It will probably not look that good, feel different and break the user feeling of consistent and logical software (design wise). So I would like to see stable software that is usability wise consistent in the end product. Not a mincemeat software that somehow works. Offering KDE4 to be installed via repo is a valid option imho. Offering KDE4 and KDE3 at install, too, I just would not give the people the advice to install KDE4 on a regular box (and therefore I would not make it default, but a rather deprecated option). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH0SIsaQ44ga2xxAoRAstQAKDWuHo6uPDcbqwwLx5hIjlMvkg00ACgh6go 3FKIrTxI1ZiWswXvUU2XCY4= =NS0a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander schreef:

Fredag den 7. Marts 2008 12:08:30 skrev Felix-Nicolai Müller:

...

Having KDE4 as main DE has got several backdrafts: 1. It is not ready. 2. It takes a lot of effort to make it ready. This solution openSUSE is taking is ugly from a technical standpoint as mixing kde3 and kde4 programms is just messy. No one really knows how KDE4 will be changed in the process of developing it and if everything will really work out compatibillity wise. How to port the Data from KDE3 to KDE4 once the KDE4 app is ready, etc, pp. There will be confusion and possibly data loss among unexperienced users. It is also ugly from a users standpoint, as one now has to use KDE3 software in a KDE4 framework. It will probably not look that good, feel different and break the user feeling of consistent and logical software (design wise).

If users wanted a stable system why do they insist on always adding as many BS repos as humanly possible and 'zypper up -t package' more often than they brush their teeth?

As Justin Steinman and Ted Haeger have been telling everybody who would listen openSUSE users are "geeks and enthusiasts".

There are several benefits of having KDE4.x as main DE. 1. Many (most?) users want the latest greatest - even if it's rough and buggy - if openSUSE doesn't provide it easily they will go to Fedora and Kubuntu who does. 2. Using KDE4.x as default makes it easier for users to upgrade to 4.1.x later on when it's "ready" - from the BS repos. Remember that 11.0 will probably last for 7-9 months. 3. KDE4.0 has lots of eyecandy, but also many improvements in features and usabillity. 4. It will help make 11.1 the world domination release that I think it can become. 5. It'll help upstream KDE

However I'm fully in agreement that there will be huge problems. Choice between KDE3 and KDE4 at this point is a matter of pick your poison. Either we piss off the users that like to be productive, or we piss off the people that want to live on the bleeding edge.

If it were up to me I'd simply postpone release of 11.0 for 3-4 months so we could not only have 4.1.0, but maybe 4.1.2 - and drop KDE3 as a desktop. Of course some KDE3 apps would most likely still be needed.

Since that doesn't appear to be an option, something else must be done. We should communicate aggressively that people should think twice before installing 11.0 (with KDE4.0), and maybe they should even consider skipping 11.0 completely. But then again, that was tried for KDE4.0 and it seemed noone paid attention.. :-/

Personally I'm considering not moving to 11.0 on my main box until 4.1 is available in the BS. Time will tell how good 4.0 can become. And how much better 4.1 will actually be.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

A cent, or two.. Pro's/Con's, OK. Reality: KDE4 is developing so fast towards a usefull desktop, that it is almost incredible to believe... It is so nice to use this fast, totaly flexible and scalable desktop, that i hardly use the old 10.3 KDE3...anymore.. There are realy made achievements in speed in overall use, and i do not want to cheer to early, but i think that if this desktop 'realy' has been used, very few will long back to the past. The way i see it, it is not that 'very' important to get it 'totaly' bugfree, because that would simply be not possible, as there are still kde3 bugs now. And true: openSUSE 'bleeds', 'cause of the continuing adaption and development. The user chooses to be part of that, or not. But for those who want stability, there are 10.2 and 10.3, so there is not a real problem. As everybody is doing the best he/she can, i can only hope that there will be time left to get the 3 main 3th. party apps fully integrated before the 'launch', but if not: so be it. Than they will later.. And personaly, but that may be clear from me statements, it is only obvious to use KDE4, because from what i see every day, it gets better by the minute.. (no time to rest as ceasar yet;) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.24.1-6-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha2 KDE: 4.0.1 (KDE 4.0.1) "release 20" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org