Hi all,
As you might have seen on the announcement on news.opensuse.org and opensuse-announce [1], we're planning on merging the Tumbleweed and Factory rolling releases. I wanted to start this thread here so people can ask questions, and to answer a few questions I expect will be on everyone's mind
1. What does this mean for Contributors? Will I have to do anything different to get my packages into the openSUSE rolling and regular distributions?
A. No - 'Factory' remains the name of the 'devel project' for the openSUSE rolling release. The process of Submit requests, Staging, etc, should all remain the same. Regular releases will be split off from Factory in the same way they are now. The only change is that the published, tested, completed, ready repositories and ISO's we currently call the 'Factory rolling release' will now be called 'Tumbleweed'
2. What does this mean for existing Factory users? Do I need to do anything?
A. Yes and No - When this goes live on Nov. 4 it is our intention to 'alias' the current Factory repositories to the 'new' Tumbleweed repositories. So existing Factory users should not *need* to do anything, however it will be recommended that people change their repositories to point to the new ones as we will phase out the current Factory URL's in about 6 months. We'll be sending out how-to guides and reminders close to the Nov 4. launch of 'merged Tumbleweed' and the retirement of the 'old Factory repositories' in 6 months time.
3. What does this mean for existing Tumbleweed users? Do I need to do anything?
A. If you want to continue using a rolling release, then Yes. Your repositories will need to be changed to the new ones. Guides will be published before Nov. 4 on how to manually do this, and we are investigating creating some kind of 'migration package' to change them automatically.
4. Why are we doing this?
A. With the vast improvements to the Factory development process over the last 2 years, we effectively found ourselves as a project with not one, but two rolling release distributions in addition to our main regular release distribution. GregKH signalled his intention to stop maintaining Tumbleweed as a 'rolling-released based on the current release'. It seemed a natural decision then to bring both the Factory rolling release and Tumbleweed rolling release together, so we can consolidate our efforts and make openSUSE's single rolling release as stable and effective as possible.
The decision to name this single rolling release Tumbleweed is because many of the people I spoke to feel it's a more suitable name for a user-ready rolling release. 'Factory' paints pictures of smoke stacks and half finished products, when in reality our rolling release is only published when it's ready. It's stable and a great choice for anyone who wants to develop on Linux and the latest software stacks or contribute to openSUSE.
5. What about OBS Projects that build against openSUSE_Tumbleweed and/or openSUSE_Factory?
A. We won't be making any changes to anyone’s OBS Projects. OBS Projects which build against openSUSE_Tumbleweed will automatically be effectively built against the 'new' Tumbleweed when it goes live. Projects building openSUSE_Factory/standard will continue to build against the 'unpublished' 'work in progress' Factory project, which can still be a valid use case, so nothing will change there. Projects building against openSUSE_Factory/snapshot will effectively be building against the same as openSUSE_Tumbleweed, so it would be advisable to not build against both, but we wont be automatically changing anything in OBS.
I'm sure there will be other questions and discussion, please reply below!
[1]https://news.opensuse.org/2014/10/24/tumbleweed-factory-rolling-releases-to-...
-- Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman
I'm sure there will be other questions and discussion, please reply below!
[1]https://news.opensuse.org/2014/10/24/tumbleweed-factory-rolling-releases-to-...
-- Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman
To resume we will have a published factory under tumbleweed on download.opensuse.org Which will contain our well tested factory. a) a precise place would be nice to have btw. b) What about the update channel and the non-oss (for those who need what's inside)
And an unpublished factory, used to create the previous one on obs. a) How a dev or packager can then test it's new things with it before submitting ? b) Add new "strength" here for dev,blah contributors here....
I would say that having one or several graphics could improve understanding how the situation will be handled during the transitional and the final time.
Like a timeline with the big steps.
Also I've learn with external repositories, that better to force someone to upgrade one time. You bother people at first, but months and years latter you will not have people using by mistake an older entry proposed by an outdated link on internet.
We will be able to do that right now, with the big changes, after it will become a bit more complicated no?
On 24 October 2014 18:15, Bruno Friedmann bruno@ioda-net.ch wrote:
To resume we will have a published factory under tumbleweed on download.opensuse.org Which will contain our well tested factory. a) a precise place would be nice to have btw.
The current plan is to have download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed be the home of this 'new' Tumbleweed
b) What about the update channel and the non-oss (for those who need what's inside)
Everything you currently see inside download.opensuse.org/factory, including an iso folder and repo/non-oss should be found in download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed on Nov 4.
I don't see an update channel for Factory yet, I expect it to be an update channel for 'Tumbleweed' now..I'll ask Marcus/Ludwig/others in the Maintenance team what they think, thank you for raising that
And an unpublished factory, used to create the previous one on obs. a) How a dev or packager can then test it's new things with it before submitting ?
I do not believe this merger of Tumbleweed and Factory doesn't change anything in this regard.
Right now a dev or a packager can build against 'unpublished Factory' (aka openSUSE Factory/standard, as used by openQA for testing) but cannot download and run it themselves
This is not normally a problem, as the difference between openSUSE Factory/standard and openSUSE Factory/snapshot (the published version we all use) is usually pretty small
b) Add new "strength" here for dev,blah contributors here....
One 'strength' is that it should be easier for contributors to make it clear when they want their OBS repositories to be used by 'users' or not
Standard 'Devel projects' are going to build against openSUSE Factory/standard as they do now. Users shouldn't use them, they're development, they're in progress, they're heading towards Factory. But contributors will be able to add them to their Tumbleweed installations for testing purposes just as they do now - this merger doesn't change the effectiveness of that approach at all.
However, someone using OBS and building their project against openSUSE Tumbleweed is sending a clear message that their project should be used by users of the openSUSE Tumbleweed rolling release
I would say that having one or several graphics could improve understanding how the situation will be handled during the transitional and the final time.
How about this (very crudely) modified version of the current Factory development model? https://sysrich.co.uk/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=0f8bc978bb55c8...
As you can see, everything stays the same, apart from the 'bit we give to users' now has a new name.
Like a timeline with the big steps.
This is how I see it happening so far (based on my discussions with Coolo, Adrian, Darix, GregKH, and others - of course, I *expect* I'm missing something, so consider this subject to change, we're a community, if you spot something we've missed, speak up!)
Nov 4. openSUSE 13.2 is released download.opensuse.org/repositories/openSUSE:/Tumbleweed/ becomes 'empty' (just like it would have if we weren't doing this merger) download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed goes live download.opensuse.org/factory redirects to download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed Tumbleweed users change their repositories to use the new location (either manually, or hopefully via a package delivered by openSUSE:Tumbleweed if we can build it in a sane way)
Nov 4 to May 4 2015 Factory users should change their repositories to use download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed
May 4 2015 download.opensuse.org/factory is removed
Also I've learn with external repositories, that better to force someone to upgrade one time.
Current Tumbleweed users will be forced to upgrade to this 'new' Tumbleweed - We're looking into ways of making it as smooth as possible (such as a package that will automatically fix their repository configuration), but they'll at the very least have to install that package or modify their repositories.
Current Factory users will need to change their repositories - we won't be forcing that on Day 1, November 4th, but 6 months later we do intend to remove the Factory URL's at download.opensuse.org/factory so people will have to have moved by then
We will be able to do that right now, with the big changes, after it will become a bit more complicated no?
I think we can strike a balance between doing the big changes and keeping things smooth for as many people as possible
On Friday 2014-10-24 19:42, Richard Brown wrote:
I would say that having one or several graphics could improve understanding how the situation will be handled during the transitional and the final time.
How about this (very crudely) modified version of the current Factory development model? https://sysrich.co.uk/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=0f8bc978bb55c8...
That may work for a business presentation, but the real picture is more like http://picpaste.de/pics/sub-FK9AttlV.1414174639.png :)
On Friday 24 October 2014 20.18:34 Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Friday 2014-10-24 19:42, Richard Brown wrote:
I would say that having one or several graphics could improve understanding how the situation will be handled during the transitional and the final time.
How about this (very crudely) modified version of the current Factory development model? https://sysrich.co.uk/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=0f8bc978bb55c8...
That may work for a business presentation, but the real picture is more like http://picpaste.de/pics/sub-FK9AttlV.1414174639.png :)
okay love the real picture and the design of the other. Time to short this of :-)
On Friday 24 October 2014 19.42:35 Richard Brown wrote:
Nov 4 to May 4 2015 Factory users should change their repositories to use download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed
May 4 2015 download.opensuse.org/factory is removed
I snip to keep just the essential.
I've still one remark (beside the excellent plan)
on obs we have openSUSE_Factory and openSUSE_Tumbleweed
on download.o.o we have factory (which will disappear) and factory-tested which will become the new Tumbleweed
Shall it be named openSUSE_Tumbleweed to keep openSUSE name close to Tumbleweed now (as it's the perfect time for)
Perhaps some guys in legal and branding could give their advices or voice their opinion. My remark is related to the different talks we already have about the brand dissolution. and to be sure (on the business side) we can promote our weeds :-)
google brand name tumbleweed report interesting things ;-)
On 10/26/2014 12:26 PM, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Friday 24 October 2014 19.42:35 Richard Brown wrote:
Nov 4 to May 4 2015 Factory users should change their repositories to use download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed
May 4 2015 download.opensuse.org/factory is removed
I snip to keep just the essential.
I've still one remark (beside the excellent plan)
on obs we have openSUSE_Factory and openSUSE_Tumbleweed
on download.o.o we have factory (which will disappear) and factory-tested which will become the new Tumbleweed
Shall it be named openSUSE_Tumbleweed to keep openSUSE name close to Tumbleweed now (as it's the perfect time for)
Perhaps some guys in legal and branding could give their advices or voice their opinion. My remark is related to the different talks we already have about the brand dissolution. and to be sure (on the business side) we can promote our weeds :-)
google brand name tumbleweed report interesting things ;-)
New branding will implemented into Plymouth, wallpaper with Tumbleweed logo?
On 26 October 2014 23:21, Roman Bysh rbtc1@rogers.com wrote:
New branding will implemented into Plymouth, wallpaper with Tumbleweed logo?
For Nov 4, I doubt it - down the road, sure, if someone is willing to put together a different branding-openSUSE package to give Tumbleweed it's own look and feel, why not?
Probably won't be me though, I have a hard enough time handling the branding updates for the regular release, I really don't have any extra capacity for more in that area right now.
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On 10/27/2014 06:27 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
On 26 October 2014 23:21, Roman Bysh rbtc1@rogers.com wrote:
New branding will implemented into Plymouth, wallpaper with Tumbleweed logo?
For Nov 4, I doubt it - down the road, sure, if someone is willing to put together a different branding-openSUSE package to give Tumbleweed it's own look and feel, why not?
Probably won't be me though, I have a hard enough time handling the branding updates for the regular release, I really don't have any extra capacity for more in that area right now.
I'd be interested in at least looking into how to do this. Are there any articles/tutorials for how to get images to load in the appropriate spots (like for example Plymouth)?
I'll at least try making a wallpaper and post it in the artwork mailing list.
- -- Regards, Uzair Shamim
On Monday 27 October 2014 09.26:32 alanbortu wrote:
On 10/27/2014 06:27 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
On 26 October 2014 23:21, Roman Bysh rbtc1@rogers.com wrote:
New branding will implemented into Plymouth, wallpaper with Tumbleweed logo?
For Nov 4, I doubt it - down the road, sure, if someone is willing to put together a different branding-openSUSE package to give Tumbleweed it's own look and feel, why not?
Probably won't be me though, I have a hard enough time handling the branding updates for the regular release, I really don't have any extra capacity for more in that area right now.
I'd be interested in at least looking into how to do this. Are there any articles/tutorials for how to get images to load in the appropriate spots (like for example Plymouth)?
I'll at least try making a wallpaper and post it in the artwork mailing list.
-- Regards, Uzair Shamim
if you go there https://github.com/openSUSE/branding There a readme which will explain the process create a tumbleweed branch and go :-)
The others things you need is a private branch of Base:System/branding package on obs (the one which build what you've done on github) https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Base:System/branding-openSUSE
After that there's some subtil changes which could be pushed to some part of kde,gnome,xfce,enlightment.
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On 10/27/2014 11:52 AM, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
if you go there https://github.com/openSUSE/branding There a readme which will explain the process create a tumbleweed branch and go :-)
The others things you need is a private branch of Base:System/branding package on obs (the one which build what you've done on github) https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Base:System/branding-openSUSE
After that there's some subtil changes which could be pushed to some part of kde,gnome,xfce,enlightment.
Awesome, thanks Bruno! I have made a private repo and will mess around with the tumbleweed branch and see if I can figure out what "needs" changing. For the time being I have messed around and got: http://paste.opensuse.org/37501419
Not really sure about the curves, they seem a bit strange to me but the colors look pretty nice to me (stole them from the release ticker on the wiki).
- -- Regards, Uzair Shamim
On Friday 2014-10-24 11:57, Richard Brown wrote:
'Factory' remains the name of the 'devel project' for the openSUSE rolling release. [...] the published [...] ready repositories and ISOs [...] will [...] be called 'Tumbleweed'
The picture painted by this -- sending to a factory and getting out a tumbling weed -- is certainly enjoyable :)
- What does this mean for existing Factory users?
A. it is our intention to 'alias' the current Factory repositories to the 'new' Tumbleweed repositories. So existing Factory [users] [...] will be recommended [to] change their repositories
- What does this mean for existing Tumbleweed users?
A. [...]Your repositories will need to be changed to the new ones.
Just say what really will happen. Something like: the new tumbleweed hierarchy will be anchored at d.o.o/tumbleweed/, that's why both parties eventually have to change their URLs.
- What about OBS Projects that build against openSUSE_Tumbleweed and/or
openSUSE_Factory?
Projects building openSUSE_Factory/standard will continue to build against the 'unpublished' 'work in progress' Factory project, which can still be a valid use case, so nothing will change there.
Despite valid use case, it will be a 1% use case.
Projects building against openSUSE_Factory/snapshot will effectively be building against the same as openSUSE_Tumbleweed, so it would be advisable to not build against both, but we wont be automatically changing anything in OBS.
I don't think there should be a problem if you change the <path> object from openSUSE_Factory/snapshot to New_Tumbleweed/standard. Just like we replaced openSUSE:10.3 by "deleted".
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Am 24.10.14 um 11:57 schrieb Richard Brown:
Hi all,
As you might have seen on the announcement on news.opensuse.org and opensuse-announce [1], we're planning on merging the Tumbleweed and Factory rolling releases. I wanted to start this thread here so people can ask questions, and to answer a few questions I expect will be on everyone's mind
No questions, just a big fat thank you! To all those doing the dirty work behind the scenes.
Regards, Johannes - -- What do Bud Light and sex in a canoe have in common? Both is fuckin' close to water.
On 10/24/2014 05:57 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
Hi all,
As you might have seen on the announcement on news.opensuse.org and opensuse-announce [1], we're planning on merging the Tumbleweed and Factory rolling releases. I wanted to start this thread here so people can ask questions, and to answer a few questions I expect will be on everyone's mind
- What does this mean for existing Tumbleweed users? Do I need to do
anything?
A. If you want to continue using a rolling release, then Yes. Your repositories will need to be changed to the new ones. Guides will be published before Nov. 4 on how to manually do this, and we are investigating creating some kind of 'migration package' to change them automatically.
No info yet, when can we expect the "guide" to be published?
On 04/11/14 01:09, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
On 10/24/2014 05:57 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
Hi all,
As you might have seen on the announcement on news.opensuse.org and opensuse-announce [1], we're planning on merging the Tumbleweed and Factory rolling releases. I wanted to start this thread here so people can ask questions, and to answer a few questions I expect will be on everyone's mind
- What does this mean for existing Tumbleweed users? Do I need to do
anything?
A. If you want to continue using a rolling release, then Yes. Your repositories will need to be changed to the new ones. Guides will be published before Nov. 4 on how to manually do this, and we are investigating creating some kind of 'migration package' to change them automatically.
No info yet, when can we expect the "guide" to be published?
And I would like to add another question to this: what form will this "guide" take - a post here and in other lists or as a wiki page?
(Only some 8 hours to go before official release........)
BC
On Tue, 2014-11-04 at 15:19 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
On 04/11/14 01:09, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
On 10/24/2014 05:57 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
Hi all,
As you might have seen on the announcement on news.opensuse.org and opensuse-announce [1], we're planning on merging the Tumbleweed and Factory rolling releases. I wanted to start this thread here so people can ask questions, and to answer a few questions I expect will be on everyone's mind
- What does this mean for existing Tumbleweed users? Do I need to do
anything?
A. If you want to continue using a rolling release, then Yes. Your repositories will need to be changed to the new ones. Guides will be published before Nov. 4 on how to manually do this, and we are investigating creating some kind of 'migration package' to change them automatically.
No info yet, when can we expect the "guide" to be published?
And I would like to add another question to this: what form will this "guide" take - a post here and in other lists or as a wiki page?
(Only some 8 hours to go before official release........)
BC
The instructions are now sent to this list, and are also available on the wiki
https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Tumbleweed_Merger
Richard Brown composed on 2014-11-04 10:56 (UTC+0100):
Clear as mud. What are we who have to type that instead of copy & paste supposed to type where those things appended to "...oss" and "...debug" appear on that page?
What is the following for? http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/openSUSE:/Tumbleweed/standard/open... 2014-Nov-04 15:17
On Fri, Oct 24, Richard Brown wrote:
I'm sure there will be other questions and discussion, please reply below!
What should packman do? It sounds like one of these repos can disappear:
<repository name="openSUSE_Tumbleweed"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Tumbleweed" repository="standard"/> <arch>x86_64</arch> <arch>i586</arch> </repository> <repository name="Factory"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
Similar for ARM, but I think this one will stay as is?
<repository name="openSUSE_Factory_ARM"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory:ARM" repository="standard"/> <path project="openSUSE.org:devel:ARM:Factory:Contrib:RaspberryPi" repository="standard"/> <arch>armv6l</arch> <arch>armv7l</arch> </repository>
Olaf
On Tue, 2014-11-04 at 11:20 +0100, Olaf Hering wrote:
On Fri, Oct 24, Richard Brown wrote:
I'm sure there will be other questions and discussion, please reply below!
What should packman do? It sounds like one of these repos can disappear:
<repository name="openSUSE_Tumbleweed"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Tumbleweed" repository="standard"/> <arch>x86_64</arch> <arch>i586</arch> </repository> <repository name="Factory"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
Similar for ARM, but I think this one will stay as is?
<repository name="openSUSE_Factory_ARM"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory:ARM" repository="standard"/> <path project="openSUSE.org:devel:ARM:Factory:Contrib:RaspberryPi" repository="standard"/> <arch>armv6l</arch> <arch>armv7l</arch> </repository>
Olaf
As I type this, I am currently editing the openSUSE_Tumbleweed standard project in OBS so it will 100% exactly match the openSUSE:Factory snapshot project for i586 and x86_64
Once that is complete (I will write a mail when it's done) then, then yes, the repositories you have named openSUSE_Tumbleweed and Factory in Packman will be identical, and you'd be wasting build power if you built for both.
But at this exact time of writing (11:52 Berlin Nov 4th) I wouldn't recommend changing anything.
On Tue, Nov 04, Richard Brown wrote:
Once that is complete (I will write a mail when it's done) then, then yes, the repositories you have named openSUSE_Tumbleweed and Factory in Packman will be identical, and you'd be wasting build power if you built for both.
Ok, so I changed it like this in packman to see how it goes:
<repository name="openSUSE_Tumbleweed"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/> <arch>x86_64</arch> <arch>i586</arch> </repository> <repository name="Factory"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
I'm sure packman will have a hard time to keep up with the changes in OBS in the "Factory" repo. But until a final decision is made, both will be enabled.
Olaf
On 5 November 2014 09:10, Olaf Hering olaf@aepfle.de wrote:
On Tue, Nov 04, Richard Brown wrote:
Once that is complete (I will write a mail when it's done) then, then yes, the repositories you have named openSUSE_Tumbleweed and Factory in Packman will be identical, and you'd be wasting build power if you built for both.
Ok, so I changed it like this in packman to see how it goes:
<repository name="openSUSE_Tumbleweed"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/> <arch>x86_64</arch> <arch>i586</arch> </repository> <repository name="Factory"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
I'm sure packman will have a hard time to keep up with the changes in OBS in the "Factory" repo. But until a final decision is made, both will be enabled.
Olaf
openSUSE_Tumbleweed in OBS should now match openSUSE:Factory snapshot
So, in Packman you should only need
<repository name="openSUSE_Tumbleweed"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/> <arch>x86_64</arch> <arch>i586</arch> </repository>
Which, if you feel like it, you could change to
<repository name="openSUSE_Tumbleweed"> <path project="openSUSE.org:openSUSE:Tumbleweed" repository="standard"/> <arch>x86_64</arch> <arch>i586</arch> </repository>
But, you shouldn't need both any more
Olaf Hering writes:
Ok, so I changed it like this in packman to see how it goes:
Thanks. Things look good already, but is there a way to tell if/when the repo is complete?
Regards, Achim.
On Wed, Nov 05, Achim Gratz wrote:
Olaf Hering writes:
Ok, so I changed it like this in packman to see how it goes:
Thanks. Things look good already, but is there a way to tell if/when the repo is complete?
Complete as in published? This is shown in the "Build Results" for each repository: https://pmbs.links2linux.org/project/show/Essentials But the "repository is published" state appearently just means that its ready for publish. Syncing it out to the main server and its mirrors is another story. IMO it takes more time in packman than in OBS.
Right now packman is busy. It will hopefully settle (and publish) during the weekend: https://pmbs.links2linux.org/monitor/old
Olaf
Olaf Hering writes:
Complete as in published? This is shown in the "Build Results" for each repository: https://pmbs.links2linux.org/project/show/Essentials
Thanks, that is useful. Firefox complains about an invalid certificate for the site, though.
But the "repository is published" state appearently just means that its ready for publish. Syncing it out to the main server and its mirrors is another story. IMO it takes more time in packman than in OBS.
Well I guess it'll be up to zypper to not make a mess, then.
Regards, Achim.
-
Achim Gratz -
alanbortu -
Basil Chupin -
Bruno Friedmann -
Felix Miata -
Jan Engelhardt -
Johannes Kastl -
Ken Schneider - Factory -
Olaf Hering -
Richard Brown -
Roman Bysh