[opensuse-factory] Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment
Hello, first of all I must say this request is not related to "default DE" issue.
From many years ago up to current release, openSUSE provides a 4.4GB ISO image for DVD and offline installation, and one Net Install ISO image less than 100MB.
This approach has many big problems: 4.4GB image: =========== * It is very huge and hard to get for most people specially who are in un-developed and in-development countries who have the low-bandwidth and limited-traffic internet service. * It is wasting the network traffic and bandwidth for both users and openSUSE servers, because not all the software in the ISO image used by users. Most users usually installs only one DE. Net Install image: ================= * It needs to internet and huge data to get for *every* install. If users want to install openSUSE on 2-3 different systems or on different partitions of Hard Disk, they need to internet and huge data to get for every installation. These problems are also mentioned by other people: * https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/459865-Surprised-by-size-o f-distro-iso-download * In one review of openSUSE that I read last year in a famous website, the author pointed to this problem. To solve mentioned problems and to attract more users to openSUSE, this project should provide separate ISO image for each DE, exactly like Fedora: https://spins.fedoraproject.org/ Thanks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 06:31:46PM +0430, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator. I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth, but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered. Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release? Daniel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Well, SUSE Studio is nice solution for this problem: select any repositories and software you want. Just one problem, there is no Leap 42.2 yet. And as for Tumbleweed there is no sense for different ISO's. Tumbleweed updates several times a week, so NetInstall is only viable option for that. IMHO. Anyway it wants a lot of traffic. пʼятниця, 21 квітня 2017 р. 17:49:09 EEST Daniel Morris написано:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 06:31:46PM +0430, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth, but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release?
Daniel
-- Kind regards, Mykola Krachkovsky — З повагою, Микола Крачковський
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Morris <danielm@ecoscentric.com> wrote:
That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth, but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release?
This is the exact problem that SUSE Studio was created to fix. You can build the ISO file with what you need/want and the it automagically pull in the dependencies. Then, if you want, you can remove some things you don't want(i.e. I taboo stuff like tracker, avahi, etc because I see no value in it. It may "break" some things, but it will work). If you haven't tried SUSE Studio, then I highly recommend it. About the only real limitation I ever saw was it's only x86-32 or x86-64 and doesn't support other archs(least it didn't last time I used it). susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/22/2017 10:22 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Morris <danielm@ecoscentric.com> wrote:
That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth, but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release?
This is the exact problem that SUSE Studio was created to fix. You can build the ISO file with what you need/want and the it automagically pull in the dependencies. Then, if you want, you can remove some things you don't want(i.e. I taboo stuff like tracker, avahi, etc because I see no value in it. It may "break" some things, but it will work).
If you haven't tried SUSE Studio, then I highly recommend it. About the only real limitation I ever saw was it's only x86-32 or x86-64 and doesn't support other archs(least it didn't last time I used it).
susestudio.com
That would be nice if it was being maintained well, but at the moment it isn't last time I checked there wasn't a 42.2 templates available, if you mess around for long enough you can get there but at the moment SUSE Studio isn't fixing this for most users. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:24 PM, Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
That would be nice if it was being maintained well, but at the moment it isn't last time I checked there wasn't a 42.2 templates available, if you mess around for long enough you can get there but at the moment SUSE Studio isn't fixing this for most users.
Hmmmm.....I hadn't logged in for a good while. It's only showing 42.1 and 4 versions of SUSE Linux Enterprise..... I remember there being a lag but not sure how long. Anyone have any idea who maintains Studio? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2017.04.22 06:44, Larry Stotler rašė:
Hmmmm.....I hadn't logged in for a good while. It's only showing 42.1 and 4 versions of SUSE Linux Enterprise.....
Hi, Template for 42.1 can be used fine to build 42.2. There is SUSE Studio appliances, that based on 42.1 template, but contains 42.2 repositories (you need to change repositories manually): https://susestudio.com/a/CttYWz/lietukas-42-2-multilingual https://susestudio.com/a/WeLBs4/ssbox-sak-42-2 https://susestudio.com/a/VU5ypu/opensuse-leap-42-2-kde https://susestudio.com/a/gstyhp/newt-os-lts https://susestudio.com/a/VU5ypu/opensuse-leap-42-2-kde3-live https://susestudio.com/a/OO38wm/geckolinux-cinnamon etc... You can search also https://susestudio.com/search?order=relevance&per_page=50&q=42.2 -- Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2017.04.22 07:38, opensuse.lietuviu.kalba rašė:
Template for 42.1 can be used fine to build 42.2. There is SUSE Studio appliances, that based on 42.1 template, but contains 42.2 repositories (you need to change repositories manually):
The challenge in 42.2 is to provide installer, because default yast2-live-installer from 42.2 no longer works. However "Calamares" installer used in appliances in GeckoLinux 422, Lietukas 42.2, Newt OS LTS 17.0.15 You can search https://susestudio.com/search?order=relevance&per_page=50&q=42.2+calamares -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 22.04.2017 um 02:52 schrieb Larry Stotler:
This is the exact problem that SUSE Studio was created to fix.
Unfortunately, susestudio.com feels like abandonware. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/22/2017 12:19 AM, Daniel Morris wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 06:31:46PM +0430, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
Well in these cases they could install these apps after and still have there main system running off the initial image, or continue to use the DVD.
I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth, but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
Providing per DE iso's doesn't mean we need to drop the DVD. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On vendredi, 21 avril 2017 16.01:46 h CEST Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
Hello, first of all I must say this request is not related to "default DE" issue.
From many years ago up to current release, openSUSE provides a 4.4GB ISO image for DVD and offline installation, and one Net Install ISO image less than 100MB.
This approach has many big problems:
4.4GB image: ===========
* It is very huge and hard to get for most people specially who are in un-developed and in-development countries who have the low-bandwidth and limited-traffic internet service.
* It is wasting the network traffic and bandwidth for both users and openSUSE servers, because not all the software in the ISO image used by users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
Net Install image: =================
* It needs to internet and huge data to get for *every* install. Wrong I mostly need less than 1Gb for my typical install ;-) See mine is shorter than, If users want to install openSUSE on 2-3 different systems or on different partitions of Hard Disk, they need to internet and huge data to get for every installation. You know that you can copy an install media, have a proxy, an own mirror. Solution are endless for those who want. These problems are also mentioned by other people:
* https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/459865-Surprised-by-size-o f-distro-iso-download
Shall I really add the fact that when I install a Debian things, I have almost one day to spend to have all the software I can have in one clic. Oh sorry I don't even know which iso I have to download to have a desktop over a virtualization server. Perhaps one day you will understand that no openSUSE is not a copycat of other stuff, why would we contribute to those kind of things.
* In one review of openSUSE that I read last year in a famous website, the author pointed to this problem. No link no proof.
To solve mentioned problems and to attract more users to openSUSE, this project should provide separate ISO image for each DE, exactly like Fedora: https://spins.fedoraproject.org/
Thanks What is able to do fedora project is not what we can, or want to.
The problem with your request is whatever you can ask, you should ask yourself the question of why we don't have, and what YOU will DO to make it happen. What I will win as contributor, to anwser to your request ? -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch Bareos Partner, openSUSE Member, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-04-21 16:01, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
Hello, first of all I must say this request is not related to "default DE" issue.
From many years ago up to current release, openSUSE provides a 4.4GB ISO image for DVD and offline installation, and one Net Install ISO image less than 100MB.
This approach has many big problems:
4.4GB image: ===========
* It is very huge and hard to get for most people specially who are in un-developed and in-development countries who have the low-bandwidth and limited-traffic internet service.
No, it is not true for "most people". Maybe for many people. However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download the DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of software in several computers without using Internet at all during the install.
Net Install image: =================
* It needs to internet and huge data to get for *every* install. If users want to install openSUSE on 2-3 different systems or on different partitions of Hard Disk, they need to internet and huge data to get for every installation.
Not true. The download data is the minimal of any method, as you only download exactly what you are going to install. Of course, the download is repeated for each machine - so use the DVD install instead.
To solve mentioned problems and to attract more users to openSUSE, this project should provide separate ISO image for each DE, exactly like Fedora:
Let Fedora go their way, and we our way :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 21/04/17 06:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download the DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of software in several computers without using Internet at all during the install.
There used to be "boxed" version of openSUSE. I know because the very first version I had was in this format. it came with the --at that time CDs set, printed installation instructions and other documentation. Is that format still available? I've also seen other services that will burn and ship a distribution DVD for you. Do the still exist? It would certainly be an alternative to downloading, even over a low bandwidth link. A greater latency perhaps. Mind you. even the long time leap-Updates repository takes to sync on my cable links, I wonder about how those with a lesser bandwidth deal with updates. -- Wisdom is earned through bitter experience. Idiocy comes easily. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-04-22 13:10, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 21/04/17 06:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download the DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of software in several computers without using Internet at all during the install.
There used to be "boxed" version of openSUSE.
Yes, I have several boxes.
I know because the very first version I had was in this format. it came with the --at that time CDs set, printed installation instructions and other documentation. Is that format still available?
I believe it is in German. In English it was done by another company but I think it failed or something.
I've also seen other services that will burn and ship a distribution DVD for you. Do the still exist?
Dunno. Perhaps.
It would certainly be an alternative to downloading, even over a low bandwidth link. A greater latency perhaps.
Mind you. even the long time leap-Updates repository takes to sync on my cable links, I wonder about how those with a lesser bandwidth deal with updates.
Badly. With low bandwidth you simply have to wait it out. The initial refresh could take 10 minutes on my system some (few, perhaps 2) years ago. But with a cap you are doomed. I conversed with someone having to download updates in a library, then take the disk to home far away. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 22/04/17 07:38 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But with a cap you are doomed.
I conversed with someone having to download updates in a library, then take the disk to home far away.
That is one possibility. Another might be that someone volunteers. The problem with volunteering is that the volunteer might get swamped with requests and some of those requests might come from people who are network-capable but too lazy to download and burn a DVD themselves. *sigh* -- Wisdom is earned through bitter experience. Idiocy comes easily. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-04-22 13:55, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 22/04/17 07:38 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But with a cap you are doomed.
I conversed with someone having to download updates in a library, then take the disk to home far away.
That is one possibility. Another might be that someone volunteers. The problem with volunteering is that the volunteer might get swamped with requests and some of those requests might come from people who are network-capable but too lazy to download and burn a DVD themselves.
*sigh*
Doing the first installation is doable with the DVD even on places with little network. Libraries, schools, friends... Even on countries like Cuba: someone brings the dvd or usb stick on a travel. The problem is updates later, if you only have a modem or nothing. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Anton Aylward composed on 2017-04-22 07:10 (UTC-0400):
I've also seen other services that will burn and ship a distribution DVD for you. Do the still exist?
You must not see distrowatch.com very often: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=opensuse in the upper right has one such service, osdisc.com, but it's hardly the only one. See also Amazon hosting LinuxDiscOnline. Another: https://www.shoplinuxonline.com/ -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 21/04/17 06:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download the DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of software in several computers without using Internet at all during the install.
There used to be "boxed" version of openSUSE. I know because the very first version I had was in this format. it came with the --at that time CDs set, printed installation instructions and other documentation. Is that format still available?
Yes: https://en.opensuse.org/Buy_openSUSE http://www.opensourcepress.de/de/produkte/openSUSE-Leap-42.2/54033/978-3-955... -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Il giorno Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:31:46 +0430 Farhad Mohammadi Majd <farhadbenyamin@yahoo.com> ha scritto: [...]
While I understand most of your concerns, I believe openSUSE should not copy the bad parts of Fedora and Ubuntu. Why do we have to make $new_iso for $new_DE? -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Farhad, as other people already said, you can use susestudio.com to make your own ISO. As susestudio seems to be slowly dying, you still can use OBS and kiwi to build ISOs by yourself. If you feel that it will be helpful for others, go ahead, do it and tell others about that. You have the tools, you have an idea and you have the time. If you need help, ask for it. When it's done we can have a look on download numbers (right?) and see if there is interest in such thing. My opinion on this is, that other solution which will help you cache data locally is the right way, especially if you are able to share it among more users. Good luck. S_W -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2017-04-24 at 08:40 +0200, Tomas Cech wrote:
Hi Farhad,
as other people already said, you can use susestudio.com to make your own ISO. As susestudio seems to be slowly dying, you still can use OBS and kiwi to build ISOs by yourself. If you feel that it will be helpful for others, go ahead, do it and tell others about that.
You have the tools, you have an idea and you have the time. If you need help, ask for it.
When it's done we can have a look on download numbers (right?) and see if there is interest in such thing.
My opinion on this is, that other solution which will help you cache data locally is the right way, especially if you are able to share it among more users.
Good luck.
S_W
SUSE studio, OBS and local data cache are not a good solution, they are complex and takes time to learn and build, I don't want the ISO image only for myself, I am thinking to many users that have my situation and currently openSUSE does not provide a good and easy way to them for installing openSUSE. This causes they choose another distros which most of them have provides such image. I don't want anymore ISO image for all/most DE, just KDE. *Is it really so hard for you?!* Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu provides a Live ISO image in size 1.3GB for GNOME/KDE and totally their default DE, I completely sure such option, an *official* ISO image with that size can attract many users to openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-04-24 15:58, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
On Mon, 2017-04-24 at 08:40 +0200, Tomas Cech wrote:
Hi Farhad,
...
SUSE studio, OBS and local data cache are not a good solution, they are complex and takes time to learn and build, I don't want the ISO image only for myself, I am thinking to many users that have my situation and
The point is, you can use those tools to create the image, then publish it for others.
currently openSUSE does not provide a good and easy way to them for installing openSUSE. This causes they choose another distros which most of them have provides such image. I don't want anymore ISO image for all/most DE, just KDE. *Is it really so hard for you?!* Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu provides a Live ISO image in size 1.3GB for GNOME/KDE and totally their default DE, I completely sure such option, an *official* ISO image with that size can attract many users to openSUSE.
Well, as openSUSE is a volunteer effort, are you volunteering to do the job? :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
participants (14)
-
Anton Aylward -
Bruno Friedmann -
Carlos E. R. -
Daniel Morris -
Farhad Mohammadi Majd -
Felix Miata -
Larry Stotler -
Luca Beltrame -
Mykola Krachkovsky -
opensuse.lietuviu.kalba -
Per Jessen -
Simon Lees -
Stefan Seyfried -
Tomas Cech