Moving from Freenode to Libera.Chat
Hi everyone, as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years. See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-... https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/ Approached by several of you we discussed this with those, the board, and the weekly release meeting. There is consensus to move our channels to Libera.Chat ( https://libera.chat ), a new network many other projects are migrating to as well. With help from Antonio and Sasi I already registered the openSUSE project with Libera.Chat (which by itself is not a move yet) and Marcus R. and others are ready to execute the move. The plan of record is to move quickly. If you have any concerns or questions, please advise as soon as possible. Likewise if you support. Thanks, Gerald PS: https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issue/4 publicly tracks this matter on the openSUSE side; feel free to chime in there. -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com>, CTO @SUSE + chair @openSUSE
That sounds as a very good decision based on what I read on all this saga. on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen. Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA http://alin.elena.space/ ______________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 27 May 2021 at 11:05, Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-... https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
Approached by several of you we discussed this with those, the board, and the weekly release meeting. There is consensus to move our channels to Libera.Chat ( https://libera.chat ), a new network many other projects are migrating to as well.
With help from Antonio and Sasi I already registered the openSUSE project with Libera.Chat (which by itself is not a move yet) and Marcus R. and others are ready to execute the move.
The plan of record is to move quickly. If you have any concerns or questions, please advise as soon as possible. Likewise if you support.
Thanks, Gerald
PS: https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issue/4 publicly tracks this matter on the openSUSE side; feel free to chime in there. -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com>, CTO @SUSE + chair @openSUSE
On Thu 2021-05-27, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen.
Ah, good questions: As for nick names, Libera.Chat is a new platform, so you'll need to register your nicks from scratch (as several of us already did - had to do for registering openSUSE as a project). As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts. Gerald
On 27/05/2021 12.28, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2021-05-27, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen.
Ah, good questions: As for nick names, Libera.Chat is a new platform, so you'll need to register your nicks from scratch (as several of us already did - had to do for registering openSUSE as a project).
As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts.
What about instructions? A wiki page perhaps? I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 12:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 12.28, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts.
My understanding is that cloaks will be available again once things settle down.
What about instructions? A wiki page perhaps?
I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc...
On 27/05/2021 12.41, Marcel Kühlhorn wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 12:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc...
Too complicated... It doesn't explains the basics. I go to "Helping you to connect", and the first paragraph is: +++············ Using CertFP As an alternative to password-based authentication, you can connect to Libera.Chat with a TLS certificate and have services recognise it automatically. ············++- What the heck is that? I use pidgin. What pidgin wants is: username server password Port eencoding ident_name Real name How do I know what to write there? That's what I want to know, not how to do a certificate alternative to password. I need first to know how to do passwords, how to get the credentials, what to configure in the client. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 27/05/2021 12.41, Marcel Kühlhorn wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 12:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc...
Too complicated... It doesn't explains the basics. Indeed. IRC is ancient and broken protocol to which authentication was added as an afterthought. You get username and password by connecting without any username and password and taking to the nickserv bot - ie do
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 01:00:16PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote: the registration. HTH Michal
On 27/05/2021 13.10, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On 27/05/2021 12.41, Marcel Kühlhorn wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 12:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc...
Too complicated... It doesn't explains the basics. Indeed. IRC is ancient and broken protocol to which authentication was added as an afterthought. You get username and password by connecting without any username and password and taking to the nickserv bot - ie do
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 01:00:16PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote: the registration.
Sorry, I understand nothing. I need a howto step by step, from configuring the client to creating a username/password to get the connection going, to registration. I remember when I did it on freenode that it was a pain. They scanned my router, deemed it insecure, and would not allow me to connect, unless I used SSL login and password. Which is not the registration password, as far as I remember. How do they expect new users to come if things are so difficult and not explained well? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-27-21 07:18]:
On 27/05/2021 13.10, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On 27/05/2021 12.41, Marcel Kühlhorn wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 12:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc...
Too complicated... It doesn't explains the basics. Indeed. IRC is ancient and broken protocol to which authentication was added as an afterthought. You get username and password by connecting without any username and password and taking to the nickserv bot - ie do
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 01:00:16PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote: the registration.
Sorry, I understand nothing.
I need a howto step by step, from configuring the client to creating a username/password to get the connection going, to registration.
I remember when I did it on freenode that it was a pain. They scanned my router, deemed it insecure, and would not allow me to connect, unless I used SSL login and password. Which is not the registration password, as far as I remember.
How do they expect new users to come if things are so difficult and not explained well?
in weechat and probably irssi (I don't mess with the graphicals): /server add libera irc.libra.chat/6667 /connect libera /msg nickserv register PASSWORD EMAIL respond to the email as it iinstructs /nick YOUR_CHOICE /msg nickserv identify PASSWORD should suffice. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On Thu, 27 May 2021 13:16:20 +0200 Carlos E. R. wrote:
I need a howto step by step, from configuring the client to creating a username/password to get the connection going, to registration.
Few articles that might help [0] [1]. And there is always Youtube :)
How do they expect new users to come if things are so difficult and not explained well?
Plenty of guides for native IRC clients, and web-chat is a WIP. [0]https://freeculture.org/Archive:IRC_with_Pidgin [1]https://fanart.tv/tutorials/pidgin-irc-quickstart-guide/ Pedja
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 13:16:20 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Sorry, I understand nothing.
I need a howto step by step, from configuring the client to creating a username/password to get the connection going, to registration.
https://libera.chat/guides It's right there under "Connecting to Libera.Chat" Maybe it should be the first point, I don't know why they put the CertFP link on top. regards
On 27/05/2021 20.13, Maximilian Trummer wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 13:16:20 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Sorry, I understand nothing.
I need a howto step by step, from configuring the client to creating a username/password to get the connection going, to registration.
https://libera.chat/guides It's right there under "Connecting to Libera.Chat"
Maybe it should be the first point, I don't know why they put the CertFP link on top.
If you read the post I wrote (on the users list) when I solved it, you will see the information I needed which was missing ;-) <https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/users@lists.opensuse.org/message/HIQY5FIXE64ZPW3BAHOI7A367ANWQPRY/> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA
What about instructions? A wiki page perhaps? on that one is simple ... replace whatever server you have with irc.libera.chat port 6667 if you replace similar or more secure
nick registration is in here https://libera.chat/guides/registration
On 27/05/2021 12.52, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA
What about instructions? A wiki page perhaps? on that one is simple ... replace whatever server you have with irc.libera.chat port 6667 if you replace similar or more secure
It was 6697, SSL and SASL and SASL plaintext over unecrypted connection.
nick registration is in here https://libera.chat/guides/registration
Before that, I need username and password. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
check the nick registration page... Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA http://alin.elena.space/ ______________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 27 May 2021 at 12:03, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 27/05/2021 12.52, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA
What about instructions? A wiki page perhaps? on that one is simple ... replace whatever server you have with irc.libera.chat port 6667 if you replace similar or more secure
It was 6697, SSL and SASL and SASL plaintext over unecrypted connection.
nick registration is in here https://libera.chat/guides/registration
Before that, I need username and password.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No. The registration says to use: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password. Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No.
The registration says to use:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword
which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password.
Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Libera has a different NickServ then Freenode, you'll have to register again.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Attachments: * OpenPGP_signature
On 27/05/2021 13.12, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No.
The registration says to use:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword
which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password.
Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Libera has a different NickServ then Freenode, you'll have to register again.
Again. Before registering a nick I need login/password to get a connection. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.12, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No.
The registration says to use:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword
which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password.
Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Libera has a different NickServ then Freenode, you'll have to register again.
Again. Before registering a nick I need login/password to get a connection.
I did not need that, what I did was: open terminal, type: flatpak install hexchat open hexchat choose libera.chat as the network and choose a username/nickname and connect Register your IRC nick: /msg NickServ REGISTER YourPassword youremail@example.com go to your email, look for the email from Libera.chat. copy the command to Hexchat and you're done. At no point did I need a password before connecting to Libera.chat. I only need to type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY "nickname" "password" to be allowed to use my nickname again. /Syds
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Attachments: * OpenPGP_signature
On 27/05/2021 13.20, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.12, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No.
The registration says to use:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword
which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password.
Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Libera has a different NickServ then Freenode, you'll have to register again.
Again. Before registering a nick I need login/password to get a connection.
I did not need that, what I did was:
open terminal, type: flatpak install hexchat
open hexchat
choose libera.chat as the network and choose a username/nickname and connect
And failure because they scan my router and say it is insecure and say I need to use SSL first. That's what happened on freenode. The instructions doesn't even say the ports to use, which were not the standard of the protocol... for SSL it is 6697. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
And failure because they scan my router and say it is insecure and say I need to use SSL first. That's what happened on freenode. I know you don't want to hear this but it sounds like your router is a
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 13:30:31 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.: liability and you should complain to your ISP about this.
The instructions doesn't even say the ports to use, which were not the standard of the protocol... for SSL it is 6697. But it does. https://libera.chat/guides/connect
ports 6697, 7000 and 7070 for TLS-encrypted connections. TLS and SSL mean the same here. People only say "SSL" these days out of inertia, nobody uses these insecure protocols anymore (SSLv2/3).
regards
On 27/05/2021 20.20, Maximilian Trummer wrote:
And failure because they scan my router and say it is insecure and say I need to use SSL first. That's what happened on freenode. I know you don't want to hear this but it sounds like your router is a
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 13:30:31 CEST schrieb Carlos E. R.: liability and you should complain to your ISP about this.
I did, and they ignored me. Yes, they answered, and more or less replied they were not going to do anything. Maybe I can find out the post, if you read Spanish and you are interested... Here, I found it: <https://comunidad.movistar.es/t5/Soporte-Fibra-y-ADSL/Me-dicen-que-el-router-es-vulnerable-y-lo-pueden-usar-como-proxy/td-p/3547168> It was the ssh port on the router, which runs an ancient version of ssh. They simply told me to close that port in the router firewall (it can not be disabled, AFAIR). If you are curious: Telcontar:~ # nmap -p22 -sV router ... PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION 22/tcp open ssh Dropbear sshd 0.46 (protocol 2.0) MAC Address: .... (Comtrend) Service Info: OS: Linux; CPE: cpe:/o:linux:linux_kernel ... or the old IRC logs if you read the link above.
The instructions doesn't even say the ports to use, which were not the standard of the protocol... for SSL it is 6697. But it does. https://libera.chat/guides/connect
ports 6697, 7000 and 7070 for TLS-encrypted connections. TLS and SSL mean the same here. People only say "SSL" these days out of inertia, nobody uses these insecure protocols anymore (SSLv2/3).
Well, I did not find it. Anyway, I got the setup done and connected. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telconta
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 13:17:21 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
On 27/05/2021 13.12, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No. The registration says to use: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password. Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Libera has a different NickServ then Freenode, you'll have to register again.
Again. Before registering a nick I need login/password to get a connection.
No, You don't. You can connect to IRC *without* prior registration. Username and password is *optional* and can be done afterwards... -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On 27/05/2021 13.21, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 13:17:21 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
On 27/05/2021 13.12, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No. The registration says to use: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password. Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Libera has a different NickServ then Freenode, you'll have to register again.
Again. Before registering a nick I need login/password to get a connection.
No, You don't. You can connect to IRC *without* prior registration. Username and password is *optional* and can be done afterwards...
See attached photo, I can not connect to Libera: <https://susepaste.org/81396729> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
server: irc.libera.chat *irc* is missing On 27/05/2021 13:37, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.21, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 13:17:21 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
On 27/05/2021 13.12, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021, at 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No. The registration says to use: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password. Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Libera has a different NickServ then Freenode, you'll have to register again.
Again. Before registering a nick I need login/password to get a connection.
No, You don't. You can connect to IRC *without* prior registration. Username and password is *optional* and can be done afterwards...
See attached photo, I can not connect to Libera:
you need to register it before.. The following steps are the recommended method to register and set up a new Libera.Chat account. If you have questions or doubts about the process, a member of staff will be happy to discuss it and answer any questions you may have. Select a main, “primary”, nickname. If the nickname you want is registered but has expired, just ask a staffer and in most cases, we will be happy to drop it for you. Please avoid using the name of a community project or trademarked entity, to avoid conflicts. Switch to your desired nickname. This will also be your account name. /nick YourNick Register your IRC nick: /msg NickServ REGISTER YourPassword youremail@example.com Replace “YourPassword” with a secure, unguessable, and unique password that you keep secret. Reusing passwords between services can result in account compromises. The email address that you select will not be given out by staff, and is mainly used to allow us to help you recover the account in the event that you forget your password. For this reason, you are required to use a real, non-disposable, email address. Upon registering, you will receive an email with a verification command that you will need to run to complete the registration process. Failure to verify the account will cause it to be automatically dropped after about 24 hours. We do not recommend sharing your NickServ password with anyone else as this could compromise account security and make it harder for you to recover your account in the future. It’s useful, but not required, to have an alternate nick grouped to your account. For example, if your primary nick is “YourNick”: /nick YourNick2 then identify to your primary account: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword and finally, group the new nick to your account /msg NickServ GROUP We prefer you to use just one account, and group nicks to it as described above, rather than registering for multiple accounts. Grouping nicks in this way gives you the benefit of having all your nicks covered by the same cloak, should you choose to wear a cloak. The exception to this is where you might want to run a bot. You should register a separate account for your bot. Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA http://alin.elena.space/ ______________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 27 May 2021 at 12:11, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No.
The registration says to use:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword
which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password.
Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 27/05/2021 13.16, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
you need to register it before..
The following steps are the recommended method to register and set up a new Libera.Chat account. If you have questions or doubts about the process, a member of staff will be happy to discuss it and answer any questions you may have.
Select a main, “primary”, nickname. If the nickname you want is registered but has expired, just ask a staffer and in most cases, we will be happy to drop it for you. Please avoid using the name of a community project or trademarked entity, to avoid conflicts.
Switch to your desired nickname. This will also be your account name.
/nick YourNick
Register your IRC nick:
/msg NickServ REGISTER YourPassword youremail@example.com
Replace “YourPassword” with a secure, unguessable, and unique password that you keep secret. Reusing passwords between services can result in account compromises.
The email address that you select will not be given out by staff, and is mainly used to allow us to help you recover the account in the event that you forget your password. For this reason, you are required to use a real, non-disposable, email address.
Upon registering, you will receive an email with a verification command that you will need to run to complete the registration process. Failure to verify the account will cause it to be automatically dropped after about 24 hours.
We do not recommend sharing your NickServ password with anyone else as this could compromise account security and make it harder for you to recover your account in the future.
It’s useful, but not required, to have an alternate nick grouped to your account. For example, if your primary nick is “YourNick”:
/nick YourNick2
To do this I have to be connected. pidgin asks first for login/password before starting the connection. So dead end. And irc.freenode.net I remember scanned my router, deemed it insecure, and refused to allow me in. I was told then I needed to use SSL+SASL. The BASIC configuration dialog in Pidgin asks: username server password advanced: Port 6697 encoding ident_name Real name [X] use SSL [X] Authenticate with SASL [X] Allow plaintext SASL auth over unecrypted connection Without SSL I can not connect, because irc.freenode.net says my router is insecure. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 13:16:01 CEST, Alin Marin Elena napsal(a):
you need to register it before.. The following steps are the recommended method to register and set up a new Libera.Chat account. If you have questions or doubts about the process, a member of staff will be happy to discuss it and answer any questions you may have. Select a main, “primary”, nickname. If the nickname you want is registered but has expired, just ask a staffer and in most cases, we will be happy to drop it for you. Please avoid using the name of a community project or trademarked entity, to avoid conflicts. Switch to your desired nickname. This will also be your account name. /nick YourNick Register your IRC nick: /msg NickServ REGISTER YourPassword youremail@example.com Replace “YourPassword” with a secure, unguessable, and unique password that you keep secret. Reusing passwords between services can result in account compromises. The email address that you select will not be given out by staff, and is mainly used to allow us to help you recover the account in the event that you forget your password. For this reason, you are required to use a real, non-disposable, email address. Upon registering, you will receive an email with a verification command that you will need to run to complete the registration process. Failure to verify the account will cause it to be automatically dropped after about 24 hours. We do not recommend sharing your NickServ password with anyone else as this could compromise account security and make it harder for you to recover your account in the future. It’s useful, but not required, to have an alternate nick grouped to your account. For example, if your primary nick is “YourNick”: /nick YourNick2 then identify to your primary account: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword and finally, group the new nick to your account /msg NickServ GROUP We prefer you to use just one account, and group nicks to it as described above, rather than registering for multiple accounts. Grouping nicks in this way gives you the benefit of having all your nicks covered by the same cloak, should you choose to wear a cloak. The exception to this is where you might want to run a bot. You should register a separate account for your bot.
No problem to get there: ircs://irc.libera.chat:6697 opens Konversation and I'm there. :-) Registration was also fast and simple, saving server configuration in Konversation also. Just one thing I don't remember: on Freenode I have openSUSE cloak. How to get this on Libera? -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On Thu 27 May 2021 02:50:49 PM CDT, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote: <snip>
No problem to get there: ircs://irc.libera.chat:6697 opens Konversation and I'm there. :-) Registration was also fast and simple, saving server configuration in Konversation also. Just one thing I don't remember: on Freenode I have openSUSE cloak. How to get this on Libera?
Hi Join #libera-cloak and type in !cloakme <enter> it will boot you from that channel and cloak you ;) -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) Tumbleweed 20210524 | GNOME Shell 40.0 | 5.12.4-1-default HP Z440 | Xeon E5-2690 V3 X24 @ 2.60GHz | AMD RX550/Nvidia GT1030 up 1 day 0:19, 2 users, load average: 1.88, 1.06, 0.64
On Thu, 27 May 2021 13:11:15 +0200, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No.
The registration says to use:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword
which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password.
Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Assuming your nick is carlose and your wanted password is MySecrit and your e-mail address is as in this mail 1. Register: /nickserv register MySecrit robin.listas@telefonica.net 2. Then Identify: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY carlose MySecrit that should be all. -- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.33 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
On 27/05/2021 13.19, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 13:11:15 +0200, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13.04, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
check the nick registration page...
No.
The registration says to use:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY YourNick YourPassword
which assumes I'm already connected. That doesn't work, I need the password to connect. I can not connect without the connection password.
Those instructions are for experts on IRC. I need instructions from scratch, well written.
Assuming your nick is carlose and your wanted password is MySecrit and your e-mail address is as in this mail
1. Register:
/nickserv register MySecrit robin.listas@telefonica.net
2. Then Identify:
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY carlose MySecrit
that should be all.
Again. Pidgin requires the password BEFORE a connection is established. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 27/05/2021 13.28, Fridrich Strba wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Again. Pidgin requires the password BEFORE a connection is established.
No, it does not, just leave it empty. Just been there, done that some seconds ago.
See the photo I posted. It doesn't work. Please reply on users@lists.opensuse.org, thread already started there. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Fridrich Strba wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Again. Pidgin requires the password BEFORE a connection is established.
No, it does not, just leave it empty. Just been there, done that some seconds ago.
Ditto, no password needed. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Again. Pidgin requires the password BEFORE a connection is established.
If nothing else, this is going off-topic here - FWIW, it worked just fine with konversation. No userid, no password, but there was a third step to verify my email address. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 13:31 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Again. Pidgin requires the password BEFORE a connection is established.
If nothing else, this is going off-topic here - FWIW, it worked just fine with konversation. No userid, no password, but there was a third step to verify my email address.
Indeed - please can we relocate the "Carlos doesn't know how to connect to IRC" portion of this thread to the Support list please? Back to the original topic. I'm already registered as 'sysrich' and joined a number of opensuse-* channels on Libera, and I volunteer to be an op if we need more Regards, Rich
On 27/05/2021 13.37, Richard Brown wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 13:31 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Again. Pidgin requires the password BEFORE a connection is established.
If nothing else, this is going off-topic here - FWIW, it worked just fine with konversation. No userid, no password, but there was a third step to verify my email address.
Indeed - please can we relocate the "Carlos doesn't know how to connect to IRC" portion of this thread to the Support list please?
As long as somebody helps me there... Connection doesn't work: https://susepaste.org/81396729 -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 27/05/2021 à 13:31, Per Jessen a écrit :
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Again. Pidgin requires the password BEFORE a connection is established.
If nothing else, this is going off-topic here - FWIW, it worked just fine with konversation. No userid, no password, but there was a third step to verify my email address.
but the instruction given on librera.chat don't works becaue it says "ircs" using irc.libera.chat without password allowed me to connect on port 6667 /msg NickServ REGISTER pass email wworked then and was givern a mail with verication code jdd -- http://dodin.org
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 13:39:04 CEST schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
but the instruction given on librera.chat don't works becaue it says "ircs" ircs:// is just a convention to state the protocol, you aren't supposed to enter this in your client. Just like you could write links to ftp servers as ftp://.
using irc.libera.chat without password allowed me to connect on port 6667 I'm sure TLS on irc.libera.chat, Port 6697 will work too and you should prefer that.
regards
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 2:26 PM Maximilian Trummer <maximilian@trummer.xyz> wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 13:39:04 CEST schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
but the instruction given on librera.chat don't works becaue it says "ircs" ircs:// is just a convention to state the protocol, you aren't supposed to enter this in your client. Just like you could write links to ftp servers as ftp://.
Some clients do actually have ircs:// handlers registered. I believe Konversation and Polari do, at least. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On 27/05/2021 20.30, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 2:26 PM Maximilian Trummer <maximilian@trummer.xyz> wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 13:39:04 CEST schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
but the instruction given on librera.chat don't works becaue it says "ircs" ircs:// is just a convention to state the protocol, you aren't supposed to enter this in your client. Just like you could write links to ftp servers as ftp://.
Some clients do actually have ircs:// handlers registered. I believe Konversation and Polari do, at least.
cer@Telcontar:~> grep ircs /etc/services ircs-u 6697/tcp # Internet Relay Chat via TLS/SSL [RFC7194] cer@Telcontar:~> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 12.28, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2021-05-27, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen.
Ah, good questions: As for nick names, Libera.Chat is a new platform, so you'll need to register your nicks from scratch (as several of us already did - had to do for registering openSUSE as a project).
As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts.
What about instructions? A wiki page perhaps?
I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc...
There isn't much to it - point your IRC client to irc.libera.chat, port 6667 or 6697 (TLS), open the channels you're interested in. I couldn't connect with TLS, otherwise fine. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 27/05/2021 13.21, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 27/05/2021 12.28, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2021-05-27, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen.
Ah, good questions: As for nick names, Libera.Chat is a new platform, so you'll need to register your nicks from scratch (as several of us already did - had to do for registering openSUSE as a project).
As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts.
What about instructions? A wiki page perhaps?
I use IRC, but not being an expert I forgot already how to set it up. So, server, ports, how to register, etc...
There isn't much to it - point your IRC client to irc.libera.chat, port 6667 or 6697 (TLS), open the channels you're interested in.
Doesn't work, see photo.
I couldn't connect with TLS, otherwise fine.
Without TLS, doesn't work. They scan my router (without my permission), deem it unsafe, and they block me. Already started thread on users list. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 5/27/21 7:58 PM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2021-05-27, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen.
Ah, good questions: As for nick names, Libera.Chat is a new platform, so you'll need to register your nicks from scratch (as several of us already did - had to do for registering openSUSE as a project).
As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts.
Given we didn't get far with that i'd like to propose a solution away from connect. I think the easiest way would be to create a temporary wiki page that requires you to be logged in to edit then we give members a week to write there nick and the cloak they would like, then one of our nominated contacts can give the list to the Libera.Chat staff and most people who care will be setup. This would give us a way to verify each request by looking at the wiki history should we choose to. If we wanted it to be easier to verify we could use a ticket on code.opensuse.org but then it would be slightly harder to extract the list. If no one has strong objections about this i'll start the process when I have some time which will likely be after the conference. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 8:46 PM Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
On 5/27/21 7:58 PM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2021-05-27, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen.
Ah, good questions: As for nick names, Libera.Chat is a new platform, so you'll need to register your nicks from scratch (as several of us already did - had to do for registering openSUSE as a project).
As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts.
Given we didn't get far with that i'd like to propose a solution away from connect. I think the easiest way would be to create a temporary wiki page that requires you to be logged in to edit then we give members a week to write there nick and the cloak they would like, then one of our nominated contacts can give the list to the Libera.Chat staff and most people who care will be setup. This would give us a way to verify each request by looking at the wiki history should we choose to. If we wanted it to be easier to verify we could use a ticket on code.opensuse.org but then it would be slightly harder to extract the list.
Why would it be harder to extract the list? -- Neal Gompa (ID: Pharaoh_Atem)
On 6/16/21 10:17 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 8:46 PM Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
On 5/27/21 7:58 PM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2021-05-27, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
on practical matters... will irc.opensuse.org be an alias for libera servers? nick name registration and cloak settings... what will happen.
Ah, good questions: As for nick names, Libera.Chat is a new platform, so you'll need to register your nicks from scratch (as several of us already did - had to do for registering openSUSE as a project).
As for cloak settings, I'm deferring to the experts.
Given we didn't get far with that i'd like to propose a solution away from connect. I think the easiest way would be to create a temporary wiki page that requires you to be logged in to edit then we give members a week to write there nick and the cloak they would like, then one of our nominated contacts can give the list to the Libera.Chat staff and most people who care will be setup. This would give us a way to verify each request by looking at the wiki history should we choose to. If we wanted it to be easier to verify we could use a ticket on code.opensuse.org but then it would be slightly harder to extract the list.
Why would it be harder to extract the list?
If we setup the wiki page right you'd be able to copy everything straight into an email from the page, if we used a ticket in code.opensuse.org everyones entry would be a separate comment and we'd have to go through and collate them. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-... https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
Approached by several of you we discussed this with those, the board, and the weekly release meeting. There is consensus to move our channels to Libera.Chat ( https://libera.chat ), a new network many other projects are migrating to as well.
Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense. But I see no reason to rush the migration to libera.chat in the current over-heated situation. I would recommend to wait at least a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the past events is possible. The #suse channel itself is unaffected by any differences between the parties involved in the freenode turmoil. Note that I'm not proposing that openSUSE should side with Andrew Lee, just to wait. Regards Martin
On Thursday 2021-05-27 13:30, Martin Wilck wrote:
But I see no reason to rush the migration to libera.chat in the current over-heated situation. I would recommend to wait at least a few weeks, until the dust has settled
How much more dust needs to be settled to be satisfied? How do you know how much dust can even settle? What if all the dust has already settled, and you just don't know it?
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-... https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
Approached by several of you we discussed this with those, the board, and the weekly release meeting. There is consensus to move our channels to Libera.Chat ( https://libera.chat ), a new network many other projects are migrating to as well.
Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense. But I believe it's unwise to rush the libera.chat migration in the current overheated situation. Why not wait a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the recent events is possible? Regards, Martin
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:09:20 CEST, Martin Wilck napsal(a):
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote: Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:IRC_list is long list... Worth of rethinking...?
But I believe it's unwise to rush the libera.chat migration in the current overheated situation. Why not wait a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the recent events is possible?
https://www.kline.sh/ says the new owner can soon get user data - IMHO this *is* good reason to rush... -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On 5/27/21 10:45 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:09:20 CEST, Martin Wilck napsal(a):
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote: Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:IRC_list is long list... Worth of rethinking...?
Yeah we should probably only register the ones people are going to actually use. Somewhere in the future we will probably have the option of bridging some of the smaller low volume ones with there equivalent on matrix / discord. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:35:40 CEST, Simon Lees napsal(a):
On 5/27/21 10:45 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:09:20 CEST, Martin Wilck napsal(a):
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote: Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:IRC_list is long list... Worth of rethinking...?
Yeah we should probably only register the ones people are going to actually use. Somewhere in the future we will probably have the option of bridging some of the smaller low volume ones with there equivalent on matrix / discord.
In any case, as there seems to be more changes ahead, I hope <https:// en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels> and <https://en.opensuse.org/ Category:Contact_us> and respective subpages will be updated... ;-) -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:45:13 CEST jste napsal(a):
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:35:40 CEST, Simon Lees napsal(a):
On 5/27/21 10:45 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:09:20 CEST, Martin Wilck napsal(a):
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote: Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:IRC_list is long list... Worth of rethinking...?
Yeah we should probably only register the ones people are going to actually use. Somewhere in the future we will probably have the option of bridging some of the smaller low volume ones with there equivalent on matrix / discord.
In any case, as there seems to be more changes ahead, I hope <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels> and <https://en.opensuse.org/Category:Contact_us> and respective subpages will be updated... ;-)
It's bit OT, but what's difference between <https://en.opensuse.org/ Category:Contact_us> and <https://en.opensuse.org/Category:Communicate>? Worth of merging...? Espetially as pages in both categories are linked from <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels> Some wiki expert around...? -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On Thu, 2021-05-27 at 23:05 +0930, Simon Lees wrote:
On 5/27/21 10:45 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 27. května 2021 15:09:20 CEST, Martin Wilck napsal(a):
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote: Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:IRC_list is long list... Worth of rethinking...?
yet #opensuse-admin is missing ... adding :-)
Yeah we should probably only register the ones people are going to actually use. Somewhere in the future we will probably have the option of bridging some of the smaller low volume ones with there equivalent on matrix / discord.
On 27.05.21 15:09, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 12:04 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-... https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
Approached by several of you we discussed this with those, the board, and the weekly release meeting. There is consensus to move our channels to Libera.Chat ( https://libera.chat ), a new network many other projects are migrating to as well.
Registering the relevant channels on libera.chat makes sense.
But I believe it's unwise to rush the libera.chat migration in the current overheated situation. Why not wait a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the recent events is possible?
Because Freenode is arguing that by being a user of freenode you are supporting the actions of freenode. At least I don't want to support this behavior by continuing to use freenode, so I have deleted my account. Juergen
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 15:19 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 27.05.21 15:09, Martin Wilck wrote:
But I believe it's unwise to rush the libera.chat migration in the current overheated situation. Why not wait a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the recent events is possible?
Because Freenode is arguing that by being a user of freenode you are supporting the actions of freenode.
At least I don't want to support this behavior by continuing to use freenode, so I have deleted my account.
I haven't seen this argument so far. For me personally it's wrong. I don't want to "support" them, and I don't think I do just by not deleting my account. OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either. Martin
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 15:19 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 27.05.21 15:09, Martin Wilck wrote:
But I believe it's unwise to rush the libera.chat migration in the current overheated situation. Why not wait a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the recent events is possible?
Because Freenode is arguing that by being a user of freenode you are supporting the actions of freenode.
At least I don't want to support this behavior by continuing to use freenode, so I have deleted my account.
I haven't seen this argument so far. For me personally it's wrong. I don't want to "support" them, and I don't think I do just by not deleting my account.
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice. Juergen
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 12:14 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice.
It seems that the ship has sailed. The topic of #suse on freenode says "We're moving to #suse on Libera.chat". I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat. Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that. Regards, Martin
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 08:49:17AM +0000, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 12:14 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice.
It seems that the ship has sailed. The topic of #suse on freenode says "We're moving to #suse on Libera.chat".
I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat.
Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that.
I think politically moving to OFTC is better because you move away from the freenode problem, both sides of it. It is better technically too because libera.chat infrastructure is in the process if being built while OFTC is running and stable. The the other thing is that if the channel moderators know and work with the freenode staff some of theose people moved to libera while OFTC has completely different people. I think that the opinion of the people who are keeping the channel running has more weight than the opinion of the general userbase. It is the result of the work of the people answering questions in the channel and moderating discussion there that it is a worthwhile place to look for, and wherever those people move it will become the place to go. It does not change the fact that the way this decision was made and the reasons for it remain a mystery. There is a lack of transparency for sure. Thanks Michal
On 5/31/21 6:55 PM, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 08:49:17AM +0000, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 12:14 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice.
It seems that the ship has sailed. The topic of #suse on freenode says "We're moving to #suse on Libera.chat".
I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat.
Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that.
The the other thing is that if the channel moderators know and work with the freenode staff some of theose people moved to libera while OFTC has completely different people.
In our case this has been less of an issue, because we have taken the chance to register our namespace properly and get an up to date list of who is responsible for what.
I think that the opinion of the people who are keeping the channel running has more weight than the opinion of the general userbase. It is the result of the work of the people answering questions in the channel and moderating discussion there that it is a worthwhile place to look for, and wherever those people move it will become the place to go.
Another consideration here for the development channels is many of our developers work closely with various upstreams a large number of which were on freenode and decide to move to libera.chat meaning they would end up on that network.
It does not change the fact that the way this decision was made and the reasons for it remain a mystery. There is a lack of transparency for sure.
On the other hand you can find pretty much the entire detail of this discussion and the reasoning why publicly on the boards issue tracker which was linked in the first message of this thread https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issue/4 -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 07:31:32PM +0930, Simon Lees wrote:
On 5/31/21 6:55 PM, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 08:49:17AM +0000, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 12:14 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice.
It seems that the ship has sailed. The topic of #suse on freenode says "We're moving to #suse on Libera.chat".
I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat.
Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that.
The the other thing is that if the channel moderators know and work with the freenode staff some of theose people moved to libera while OFTC has completely different people.
In our case this has been less of an issue, because we have taken the chance to register our namespace properly and get an up to date list of who is responsible for what.
I think that the opinion of the people who are keeping the channel running has more weight than the opinion of the general userbase. It is the result of the work of the people answering questions in the channel and moderating discussion there that it is a worthwhile place to look for, and wherever those people move it will become the place to go.
Another consideration here for the development channels is many of our developers work closely with various upstreams a large number of which were on freenode and decide to move to libera.chat meaning they would end up on that network.
It does not change the fact that the way this decision was made and the reasons for it remain a mystery. There is a lack of transparency for sure.
On the other hand you can find pretty much the entire detail of this discussion and the reasoning why publicly on the boards issue tracker which was linked in the first message of this thread https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issue/4
So if I read that correctly some people randomly moved to libera, some other people noticed something happened and started moving other things to libera, and then most stuff was moved to libera without anyone ever making a conscious decision to do the move. I think that's exactly the kee-jerk reaction that would better be avoided but for this specific case it's probably way too late by now. Thanks Michal
On Mon, 2021-05-31 at 12:23 +0200, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On the other hand you can find pretty much the entire detail of this discussion and the reasoning why publicly on the boards issue tracker which was linked in the first message of this thread https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issue/4
So if I read that correctly some people randomly moved to libera, some other people noticed something happened and started moving other things to libera, and then most stuff was moved to libera without anyone ever making a conscious decision to do the move.
I think that's exactly the kee-jerk reaction that would better be avoided but for this specific case it's probably way too late by now.
So you advocate that the openSUSE Project should limit, retrict, or otherwise hinder it's community members are allowed to use to talk to each other, when they choose what platforms they wish to use? That does not seem very community spirited of you..
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 01:56:05PM +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
On Mon, 2021-05-31 at 12:23 +0200, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On the other hand you can find pretty much the entire detail of this discussion and the reasoning why publicly on the boards issue tracker which was linked in the first message of this thread https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issue/4
So if I read that correctly some people randomly moved to libera, some other people noticed something happened and started moving other things to libera, and then most stuff was moved to libera without anyone ever making a conscious decision to do the move.
I think that's exactly the kee-jerk reaction that would better be avoided but for this specific case it's probably way too late by now.
So you advocate that the openSUSE Project should limit, retrict, or otherwise hinder it's community members are allowed to use to talk to each other, when they choose what platforms they wish to use?
That does not seem very community spirited of you..
I think that openSUSE organization is an organization to organize things. Apparently the move to libera went through at least a couple steering groups without anybody asking what are the options at hand and what are the respecitve advantages and disadvantages so that involved people can make an informed decision and communicate the rationale rather than act at random and document the events after the fact. Thanks Michal
On Mon, 2021-05-31 at 14:25 +0200, Michal Suchánek wrote:
I think that openSUSE organization is an organization to organize things. Apparently the move to libera went through at least a couple steering groups without anybody asking what are the options at hand and what are the respecitve advantages and disadvantages so that involved people can make an informed decision and communicate the rationale rather than act at random and document the events after the fact.
Um what organisation are you talking about? openSUSE as an organisation is a famous/notorious for having a "Those who do, decide" mentality and a long history of empowering its contributors. There is even significant documentation, official [1] and unofficial [2] to that fact that openSUSE does not have steering groups. Period. We actively advertise ourself as a project as that does not "have technical steering groups or other people who tell us what to do" how can you possibly be surprised that our contributors didn't wait for the consent of steering groups? What phantom steering groups would you expect contributors to wait for before setting up or moving to a new communication platform? [1] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Why_openSUSE [2] https://rootco.de/2016-04-03-opensuse-and-you/
On 31/05/2021 14.32, Richard Brown wrote:
On Mon, 2021-05-31 at 14:25 +0200, Michal Suchánek wrote:
I think that openSUSE organization is an organization to organize things. Apparently the move to libera went through at least a couple steering groups without anybody asking what are the options at hand and what are the respecitve advantages and disadvantages so that involved people can make an informed decision and communicate the rationale rather than act at random and document the events after the fact.
Um what organisation are you talking about?
openSUSE as an organisation is a famous/notorious for having a "Those who do, decide" mentality and a long history of empowering its contributors.
There is even significant documentation, official [1] and unofficial [2] to that fact that openSUSE does not have steering groups. Period.
We actively advertise ourself as a project as that does not "have technical steering groups or other people who tell us what to do"
how can you possibly be surprised that our contributors didn't wait for the consent of steering groups?
What phantom steering groups would you expect contributors to wait for before setting up or moving to a new communication platform?
[1] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Why_openSUSE [2] https://rootco.de/2016-04-03-opensuse-and-you/
And that is BAD, precisely. IMO. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 02:32:57PM +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
On Mon, 2021-05-31 at 14:25 +0200, Michal Suchánek wrote:
I think that openSUSE organization is an organization to organize things. Apparently the move to libera went through at least a couple steering groups without anybody asking what are the options at hand and what are the respecitve advantages and disadvantages so that involved people can make an informed decision and communicate the rationale rather than act at random and document the events after the fact.
Um what organisation are you talking about?
openSUSE as an organisation is a famous/notorious for having a "Those who do, decide" mentality and a long history of empowering its contributors.
There is even significant documentation, official [1] and unofficial [2] to that fact that openSUSE does not have steering groups. Period.
We actively advertise ourself as a project as that does not "have technical steering groups or other people who tell us what to do"
how can you possibly be surprised that our contributors didn't wait for the consent of steering groups?
What phantom steering groups would you expect contributors to wait for before setting up or moving to a new communication platform?
There is nothing stopping people from discussing openSUSE on any platform at any time. However, registering the openSUSE project with the libera.chat platform is something that has to be done officially. Updating openSUSE documentation which lists the communication channels is also centrally made decision to some extent. When such change is brought up with groups like openSUSE Board or relase meeting or whatever it would be good idea to ask why libera is chosen as successor to freenode so that the announcement can read We have moved from freenode to libera because ... rather than We have moved from freenode to libera. I realize that the reason for moving away from freenode is quite clear but the reason why libera was chosen is not communicated. Maybe there is one that is not shared, maybe nobody thought about it at all, who knows? That sounds like the actions of the Board are either thoughtless or non-transperant neither of which sounds particularly appealing. Thanks Michal
On Mon, May 31 2021 at 14:58:51 +0200, Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
There is nothing stopping people from discussing openSUSE on any platform at any time.
However, registering the openSUSE project with the libera.chat platform is something that has to be done officially.
There really isn't blood sacrifice involved in getting board's approval to do things like that, however as opposed to the libera.chat registration, there have been nobody that started the process of getting the board to approve registering with oftc at all. From the technical point of view though, libera.chat will be much less of a pain to bridge with matrix, which makes my job easier ;) LCP [Sasi] https://lcp.world
On 31.05.21 15:04, Sasi Olin wrote:
From the technical point of view though, libera.chat will be much less of a pain to bridge with matrix, which makes my job easier ;)
IMVHO (I'm probably/hopefully not ever going to have to use IRC again in my life) this is a good argument for libera.chat -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On Mo, 2021-05-31 at 14:32 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
openSUSE as an organisation is a famous/notorious for having a "Those who do, decide" mentality and a long history of empowering its contributors.
There is even significant documentation, official [1] and unofficial [2] to that fact that openSUSE does not have steering groups. Period.
We actively advertise ourself as a project as that does not "have technical steering groups or other people who tell us what to do"
... which is exactly what happened here. We were told to move to libera.chat, whether or not we consent, by individuals who happen to be in the channel operator role on freenode. The "those who do, decide" model works well for technical development (most of the time), but not for possibly controversial policy issues. If this decision had been made by an elected comittee, there would be at least some sort-of-democratic legitimation behind the move, and users who disagree could vote for different candidates next time. Regards, Martin
On Monday 2021-05-31 15:21, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Mo, 2021-05-31 at 14:32 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
openSUSE as an organisation is a famous/notorious for having a "Those who do, decide" mentality and a long history of empowering its contributors.
There is even significant documentation, official [1] and unofficial [2] to that fact that openSUSE does not have steering groups. Period.
We actively advertise ourself as a project as that does not "have technical steering groups or other people who tell us what to do"
... which is exactly what happened here. We were told to move to libera.chat, whether or not we consent, by individuals who happen to be in the channel operator role on freenode.
In #opensuse-factory and #opensuse-buildservice, no operator said anything to that extent. People simply joined Libera, some sooner, some later. Once two peers found their new 'connection', conversation(s) take place on the new net. The linecount on Freenode reduces in equal fashion. At some point, someone will drop off Freenode because there the linecount drops below a subjective threshold. Now the two have to use the new net out of necessity.
On Mo, 2021-05-31 at 16:28 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
... which is exactly what happened here. We were told to move to libera.chat, whether or not we consent, by individuals who happen to be in the channel operator role on freenode.
In #opensuse-factory and #opensuse-buildservice, no operator said anything to that extent.
I was referring to the #suse channel. Regards, Martin
On 5/31/21 10:51 PM, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Mo, 2021-05-31 at 14:32 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
openSUSE as an organisation is a famous/notorious for having a "Those who do, decide" mentality and a long history of empowering its contributors.
There is even significant documentation, official [1] and unofficial [2] to that fact that openSUSE does not have steering groups. Period.
We actively advertise ourself as a project as that does not "have technical steering groups or other people who tell us what to do"
... which is exactly what happened here. We were told to move to libera.chat, whether or not we consent, by individuals who happen to be in the channel operator role on freenode.
The "those who do, decide" model works well for technical development (most of the time), but not for possibly controversial policy issues.
If this decision had been made by an elected comittee, there would be at least some sort-of-democratic legitimation behind the move, and users who disagree could vote for different candidates next time.
Well in some ways it was, in that the Board made a decision not to say no we'd rather not have a channel on this network because we'd like to use some other network instead. The board has responsibility for the openSUSE Trademark so its well within our power to say we don't want to have a presence on platform X. So if you want you can blame the board. We could have also said please wait while we have further discussion on the matter but personally once the release engineering team who are our largest users of irc still didn't object then I was ok with the change. But as a board moving to libera.chat was recommended by everyone who has been responsible for making the change and as a board we didn't see a good reason to disagree with them. Personally i'm in a couple of channels on OFTC so i'm well aware of other networks but most channels i'm on were on freenode and have since moved to libera.chat -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 5:25 AM Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 08:49:17AM +0000, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 12:14 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice.
It seems that the ship has sailed. The topic of #suse on freenode says "We're moving to #suse on Libera.chat".
I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat.
Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that.
I think politically moving to OFTC is better because you move away from the freenode problem, both sides of it. It is better technically too because libera.chat infrastructure is in the process if being built while OFTC is running and stable.
There's no such thing as avoiding politics. It's foolish to consider that possible, and avoiding dealing with problems head-on is how you wind up becoming useless. Regardless, openSUSE as a community is about people and relationships, and we've had a long and fruitful one with the Freenode staff going back over two decades. It's unfortunate that this happened, but we should work with and support the people who have had *our* backs for so long. In my mind, if we're continuing IRC services, then it was a no-brainer to continue by migrating to Libera Chat. Not to mention, most of the projects *we* work with in openSUSE *already* moved to Libera Chat. And because IRC is not a federated system like Matrix is, it *matters* what network we're on. In the end, I think this quote sums up my attitude on this: “Technology does not run an enterprise, relationships do.” -- Patricia Fripp My personal feeling, though, is that IRC is not even the center of the openSUSE community anymore. The converged Matrix+Discord+Telegram community is several orders of magnitude bigger, and has become the main point of presence for most folks new to openSUSE. Sasi and others have done a great job nurturing a welcoming community there. We have more folks on Matrix than we do all the IRC channels. If you want to go with "the only winning move is not to play", then we would be leaving IRC altogether for Matrix. I don't think that openSUSE is *quite* ready for that move yet. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 06:24:29AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 5:25 AM Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 08:49:17AM +0000, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 12:14 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice.
It seems that the ship has sailed. The topic of #suse on freenode says "We're moving to #suse on Libera.chat".
I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat.
Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that.
I think politically moving to OFTC is better because you move away from the freenode problem, both sides of it. It is better technically too because libera.chat infrastructure is in the process if being built while OFTC is running and stable.
There's no such thing as avoiding politics. It's foolish to consider that possible, and avoiding dealing with problems head-on is how you wind up becoming useless. Regardless, openSUSE as a community is about
But also taking on problems or taking sides in quarrels that are not relevant to you is another path to uselessness.
people and relationships, and we've had a long and fruitful one with the Freenode staff going back over two decades. It's unfortunate that this happened, but we should work with and support the people who have had *our* backs for so long. In my mind, if we're continuing IRC services, then it was a no-brainer to continue by migrating to Libera Chat. Not to mention, most of the projects *we* work with in openSUSE *already* moved to Libera Chat. And because IRC is not a federated system like Matrix is, it *matters* what network we're on.
In the end, I think this quote sums up my attitude on this:
“Technology does not run an enterprise, relationships do.” -- Patricia Fripp
You artfully removed the part where I mentioned that this may be a reason when quoting my e-mail.
My personal feeling, though, is that IRC is not even the center of the openSUSE community anymore. The converged Matrix+Discord+Telegram community is several orders of magnitude bigger, and has become the main point of presence for most folks new to openSUSE. Sasi and others have done a great job nurturing a welcoming community there. We have more folks on Matrix than we do all the IRC channels.
If you want to go with "the only winning move is not to play", then we would be leaving IRC altogether for Matrix. I don't think that openSUSE is *quite* ready for that move yet.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On Mon 2021-05-31, Martin Wilck wrote:
True. OFTC might be the better choice. I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat.
Full disclosure: I am not a user of IRC outside of very occasional exceptions. I did get contacted by a number of folks and helped register openSUSE as a project on Libera.Chat and with communications. A little sequence of events: I, directly, and the board as a group were contacted by an increasing number of people about the Freenode situation with strong concerns and a recommendation to move away (and usually one to move to Libera.Chat). Those were generally people using IRC, and in fact helping manage openSUSE's presence on IRC. Among all those messages and conversations, including the public release management meeting last week, there was (increasingly) strong concensus to move away from Freenode, and usually towards Libera.Chat. (Nobody brought up OFTC, IIRC.) https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issue/4 was created early on and I encouraged everyone to engage and share there. To make sure the openSUSE project controls #opensuse-* and the like on Libera.Chat, with help by Antonio and input from others like LCP I registered openSUSE as a project. That, as such, is not a move. Then I shared the update with project@ and factory@ last week to give a heads-up and chance for feedback.
Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that.
Given mounting pressure and time constraints, I don't think a regular poll via the Election Officials would have worked. One thing anyone involved could have done better is to point project@ and factory@ to that ticket earlier on. This is something I will keep in mind/an eye on going forward. On Mon 2021-05-31, Michal Suchánek wrote:
I think politically moving to OFTC is better because you move away from the freenode problem, both sides of it. It is better technically too because libera.chat infrastructure is in the process if being built while OFTC is running and stable.
Are there any concrete issues with the Libera.Chat infrastructure that effect us? (I don't know either way - genuinely curious.)
The the other thing is that if the channel moderators know and work with the freenode staff some of theose people moved to libera while OFTC has completely different people.
I think that the opinion of the people who are keeping the channel running has more weight than the opinion of the general userbase. It is the result of the work of the people answering questions in the channel and moderating discussion there that it is a worthwhile place to look for, and wherever those people move it will become the place to go.
The way things unfolded from my perspective it's been the people active and helping run things that pushed for the move (away from Freenode and to Libera.Chat) and actually helped/performed the move. On a personal note, it's getting a little frustrating how lack of complaints appear about the most positive feedback one gets on this list (in too many cases). Even as someone not regularly on IRC I'd like to thank the volunteers who've worked on this with the best of intentions and in support of openSUSE and our communities. Thank you, Gerald
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 02:51:07PM +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Mon 2021-05-31, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Mon 2021-05-31, Michal Suchánek wrote:
I think politically moving to OFTC is better because you move away from the freenode problem, both sides of it. It is better technically too because libera.chat infrastructure is in the process if being built while OFTC is running and stable.
Are there any concrete issues with the Libera.Chat infrastructure that effect us? (I don't know either way - genuinely curious.)
The Matrix bridge for OFTC is well established and documented. The Matrix bridge for Libera has just been implemented and people are complaining about lack of specific documentation how to use it. Freenode and OFTC provide web chat as fallback for people who do not have a (working) IRC client on their machine. Reportedly it has not been implemented for Libera yet. Obviously these problems are temporary but could have been avoided by moving to a mature IRC network instead.
The the other thing is that if the channel moderators know and work with the freenode staff some of theose people moved to libera while OFTC has completely different people.
I think that the opinion of the people who are keeping the channel running has more weight than the opinion of the general userbase. It is the result of the work of the people answering questions in the channel and moderating discussion there that it is a worthwhile place to look for, and wherever those people move it will become the place to go.
The way things unfolded from my perspective it's been the people active and helping run things that pushed for the move (away from Freenode and to Libera.Chat) and actually helped/performed the move.
And at the point when the Board gets involved it would be great if somebody asked what is the vision for the future of openSUSE presence on IRC why move to Libera specifically, and if there are other options. Without questions there are no answers.
On a personal note, it's getting a little frustrating how lack of complaints appear about the most positive feedback one gets on this list (in too many cases).
That's the nature of mailing lists. They are mostly used to discuss problems. Hopefully we will get the option to discuss other things in pubs again soon ;-) In the meantime channels designated for off-topic discussion on IRC and other networks are also available. Thanks Michal
Politics and BS aside, and a small detail, but if someone could do the rounds and get Libera.Chat added to the default network list of XChat and other big clients it would be great.
On Wed 2021-06-16, Jonathan Arsenault wrote:
if someone could do the rounds and get Libera.Chat added to the default network list of XChat and other big clients it would be great.
Agreed. And kudos to Simon: % rpm -q --changelog hexchat | head -4 * Fri May 21 2021 Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> - Add Libera.Chat to the channel list * feature-add-libera-chat.patch Gerald
On 6/17/21 12:03 AM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Wed 2021-06-16, Jonathan Arsenault wrote:
if someone could do the rounds and get Libera.Chat added to the default network list of XChat and other big clients it would be great.
Agreed. And kudos to Simon:
% rpm -q --changelog hexchat | head -4 * Fri May 21 2021 Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> - Add Libera.Chat to the channel list * feature-add-libera-chat.patch
Yeah i've seen a couple of other clients done as well, I didn't know people still used xchat rather then hexchat. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Hello, only a side note On 2021-05-31 14:51, Gerald Pfeifer wrote (excerpt)
... it's getting a little frustrating how lack of complaints appear about the most positive feedback one gets ...
I think this is normal (like "no news is good news"). I experience that since more than 20 years and yes, it can feel frustrating, but I think it is how reality is and there is nothing actually bad with it (there is no intentionally withheld plaudit or appreciation). Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer
Am Montag, 31. Mai 2021, 14:51:07 CEST schrieb Gerald Pfeifer:
On a personal note, it's getting a little frustrating how lack of complaints appear about the most positive feedback one gets on this list (in too many cases).
I just wanted to say that I appreciate your commitment earlier in this post:
One thing anyone involved could have done better is to point project@ and factory@ to that ticket earlier on.
There hadn't been anything on the ML about the issue and I was wondering already whether I should write a post about it myself. regards
On 5/31/21 6:19 PM, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 12:14 +0200, Juergen Gross wrote:
On 28.05.21 11:08, Martin Wilck wrote:
OTOH, by actively moving to libera.chat, you'd quite obviously support _them_. Which is not a thing I feel much tempted to do, either.
True. OFTC might be the better choice.
It seems that the ship has sailed. The topic of #suse on freenode says "We're moving to #suse on Libera.chat".
I wonder if those who made the decision to do this, whoever it was, even considered alternatives. But well, Gerald had told us right from the start that there was "consensus" (in whatever group) to move to libera.chat.
I believe this change was made by the existing owners / moderators of the channel on freenode we hadn't requested that they do this yet the plan as last discussed was probably use #opensuse rather then #suse there but the founders of #suse had created the channel on libera.chat before we even started discussing it as an option. The issue was first raised with the board by several people and the board gave a general consensus to move to libera.chat following that it was discussed at the Release Engineering meeting (which contains the people who most prominently use #opensuse-factory etc for there day to day working) and they also had a general consensus to move.
Is it just me thinking that the way large-scale policy issues for openSUSE are decided needs improvement? I realize that those who aren't happy with the quick libera.chat move are probably a minority. But if there'd been a poll, we'd at least know that.
Richard did put together a policy for major policy issues which was followed for questions around foundations and the project name, i'm not sure so much if this is a major policy decision in that same sort of way or really a decision like many in openSUSE thats best left to those doing the work / using the service to decide. Obviously we'd like to see some coordination here however so we don't end up with 5 teams on 5 different IRC networks. The support channel is slightly different though, people will probably just ask wherever they are already (this is pretty much how we ended up with a support channel on Discord), so unless someone actually takes action to block people joining we might see people on both networks for a while, as I said there was already people who had personally decided to move networks and recreated the support channel before we even started discussing it. Cheers Simon -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 5/27/21 8:09 AM, Martin Wilck wrote:
But I believe it's unwise to rush the libera.chat migration in the current overheated situation. Why not wait a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the recent events is possible?
I personally have had three channels hijacked by Freenode (founder status revoked) because the channel topic violated guidelines. The offending topic? "This channel has moved to irc.libera.chat." The same thing has happened to many other channels. As far as I'm concerned, that sort of thing alone is reason to leave Freenode. This is exactly the kind of behavior the staff warned about when they resigned en masse. -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 5:36 PM Glenn Holmer <cenbe@kolabnow.com> wrote:
On 5/27/21 8:09 AM, Martin Wilck wrote:
But I believe it's unwise to rush the libera.chat migration in the current overheated situation. Why not wait a few weeks, until the dust has settled and (hopefully) a rational judgement about the recent events is possible?
I personally have had three channels hijacked by Freenode (founder status revoked) because the channel topic violated guidelines. The offending topic? "This channel has moved to irc.libera.chat." The same thing has happened to many other channels.
As far as I'm concerned, that sort of thing alone is reason to leave Freenode. This is exactly the kind of behavior the staff warned about when they resigned en masse.
I agree with Martin and also with you too. I agree that we should avoid knee-jerk reactions created by an echo bubble which happens a lot these days. And we can't have access to all the facts, not yet. But on the other hand I think what Freenode admins did is unacceptable. Anyhow, I suggest people read https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c1646791c61953 and see that both parts are guilty in this, I'd be happier if we moved to Oftc.net instead. Regards, ismail
"İD" == İsmail Dönmez <ismail@i10z.com> writes:
İD> Anyhow, I suggest people read İD> https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c1646791c61953 and İD> see that both parts are guilty in this, I'd be happier if we moved to İD> Oftc.net instead. +1 Debian is there AFAIK for a long time
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 18:39 +0200, İsmail Dönmez wrote:
I agree with Martin and also with you too. I agree that we should avoid knee-jerk reactions created by an echo bubble which happens a lot these days. And we can't have access to all the facts, not yet. But on the other hand I think what Freenode admins did is unacceptable.
Anyhow, I suggest people read https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c1646791c61953 and see that both parts are guilty in this, I'd be happier if we moved to Oftc.net instead.
+1, better phrased than I could have. Thanks, Martin
Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA http://alin.elena.space/ ______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 28 May 2021 at 10:08, Martin Wilck <martin.wilck@suse.com> wrote:
On Do, 2021-05-27 at 18:39 +0200, İsmail Dönmez wrote:
I agree with Martin and also with you too. I agree that we should avoid knee-jerk reactions created by an echo bubble which happens a lot these days. And we can't have access to all the facts, not yet. But on the other hand I think what Freenode admins did is unacceptable.
this like in a union strike (i know some of you may need to google that) both sides do not so cool things but at the end one is an action, the other a reaction.. and treating the two the same works only in physics. philosophy aside communications landscape is more diverse these days than 20+ years ago and we shall be happy to embrace various channels. proper documentation for libra, matrix is all we need then people decide what to use.
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 10:13 +0100, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
philosophy aside communications landscape is more diverse these days than 20+ years ago and we shall be happy to embrace various channels. proper documentation for libra, matrix is all we need then people decide what to use.
People want answers to their questions on these channels. Splitting the community based on communication tool preferences is unhelpful. Martin
On Fri, 2021-05-28 at 09:32 +0000, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Fr, 2021-05-28 at 10:13 +0100, Alin Marin Elena wrote:
philosophy aside communications landscape is more diverse these days than 20+ years ago and we shall be happy to embrace various channels. proper documentation for libra, matrix is all we need then people decide what to use.
People want answers to their questions on these channels. Splitting the community based on communication tool preferences is unhelpful.
Which is why, together with the work on spinning up our own Matrix instance, there are also plans to bridge these channels between the various platforms.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <4217ef4f-ec9a-a8a2-ab3c-7c246848b94@Telcontar.valinor> On Thursday, 2021-05-27 at 18:39 +0200, İsmail Dönmez wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 5:36 PM Glenn Holmer <> wrote:
On 5/27/21 8:09 AM, Martin Wilck wrote:
...
I agree with Martin and also with you too. I agree that we should avoid knee-jerk reactions created by an echo bubble which happens a lot these days. And we can't have access to all the facts, not yet. But on the other hand I think what Freenode admins did is unacceptable.
Anyhow, I suggest people read https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c1646791c61953 and see that both parts are guilty in this, I'd be happier if we moved to Oftc.net instead.
The XFS people are migrating to oftc too. I don't have an opinion. <https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-xfs/msg52693.html> It worries me that IRC is fragmented. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCYLFbEBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV2CsAn0eSZuCSDkBnLyHUNEfm LPCLvIlaAKCIVMyuOfWn9pWpKAuMwrYa2L0CeQ== =lSIk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 5:05 PM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Content-ID: <4217ef4f-ec9a-a8a2-ab3c-7c246848b94@Telcontar.valinor>
On Thursday, 2021-05-27 at 18:39 +0200, İsmail Dönmez wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 5:36 PM Glenn Holmer <> wrote:
On 5/27/21 8:09 AM, Martin Wilck wrote:
...
I agree with Martin and also with you too. I agree that we should avoid knee-jerk reactions created by an echo bubble which happens a lot these days. And we can't have access to all the facts, not yet. But on the other hand I think what Freenode admins did is unacceptable.
Anyhow, I suggest people read https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c1646791c61953 and see that both parts are guilty in this, I'd be happier if we moved to Oftc.net instead.
The XFS people are migrating to oftc too. I don't have an opinion.
<https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-xfs/msg52693.html>
It worries me that IRC is fragmented.
It's always been this way. It was just a lot easier to not notice it until now. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-05-28 23:05 (UTC+0200):
The XFS people are migrating to oftc too. I don't have an opinion.
It worries me that IRC is fragmented.
+ + + -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Hello, On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 12:04:51PM +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-... https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
I don't think being a Korean prince disqualifies anybody from operating an IRC network. Using that fact to disqualify a particular person is an ad-hominem attack which is no way relevant to their ability to run the network. That said there is clearly a feud among the freenode network operators, and because of lack of transparency all sides are coming up with sensational, unverifiable, and unrefutable claims. With the recent forced takeover of hundreds of freenode channels by the staff and adjusting the ToS around the time of the takeover to justify it the current operators have proven themselves unfit for running a community network. In the end the irc channel moderators and the users of the network suffer the fallout, and the recent events have shown that moving away from freenode is the only reasonable way to mitigate that. It might be reasonable to ask if some more recent protocol like Matrix would be less prone to issues like this. With more modern protocols with native authentication it might be also easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time. Unfortunaltey, the openSUSE community over at Matrix does not look particularly thriving. Thanks Michal
On Thu, May 27 2021 at 15:23:56 +0200, Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
It might be reasonable to ask if some more recent protocol like Matrix would be less prone to issues like this.
Indeed it is! The issue being that our instance still isn't ready, because our last try to get the authentication working with Bernhard didn't really succeed. I need to steal a SUSE IT employee for an afternoon to set it up one day (which may be hard, considering I assume they are busy)
With more modern protocols with native authentication it might be also easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time.
That would be true, if it wasn't for Matrix clients not implementing SSO for the most part, which is kind of a requirement for us to use the existing login system. I know of 2 clients that implement it in the entire ecosystem. That would be easy to work around if they allowed for authenticating with authentication token provided by another client which is signed in, but sadly that's apparently also pretty rare...
Unfortunaltey, the openSUSE community over at Matrix does not look particularly thriving.
Huh? We are so active on matrix, have a look at the rooms listed in #space:opensuse.org space or old +rooms:opensuse.org community. Some rooms aren't really used much, since they are waiting for the irc bridge to happen, but the rooms that are used are used so much. LCP [Sasi] https://lcp.world
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 03:36:03PM +0200, Sasi Olin wrote:
On Thu, May 27 2021 at 15:23:56 +0200, Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de>
Unfortunaltey, the openSUSE community over at Matrix does not look particularly thriving.
Huh? We are so active on matrix, have a look at the rooms listed in #space:opensuse.org space or old +rooms:opensuse.org community. Some rooms aren't really used much, since they are waiting for the irc bridge to happen, but the rooms that are used are used so much.
Then I happen to be only in the ones that are not used. Thanks Michal
* Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> [06-01-21 12:59]:
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 03:36:03PM +0200, Sasi Olin wrote:
On Thu, May 27 2021 at 15:23:56 +0200, Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de>
Unfortunaltey, the openSUSE community over at Matrix does not look particularly thriving.
Huh? We are so active on matrix, have a look at the rooms listed in #space:opensuse.org space or old +rooms:opensuse.org community. Some rooms aren't really used much, since they are waiting for the irc bridge to happen, but the rooms that are used are used so much.
Then I happen to be only in the ones that are not used.
I don't prefer matrix, but irssi/weechat/konversation -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 03:36:03PM +0200, Sasi Olin wrote:
On Thu, May 27 2021 at 15:23:56 +0200, Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
It might be reasonable to ask if some more recent protocol like Matrix would be less prone to issues like this.
Indeed it is! The issue being that our instance still isn't ready, because our last try to get the authentication working with Bernhard didn't really succeed. I need to steal a SUSE IT employee for an afternoon to set it up one day (which may be hard, considering I assume they are busy)
With more modern protocols with native authentication it might be also easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time.
That would be true, if it wasn't for Matrix clients not implementing SSO for the most part, which is kind of a requirement for us to use the existing login system. I know of 2 clients that implement it in the entire ecosystem. That would be easy to work around if they allowed for authenticating with authentication token provided by another client which is signed in, but sadly that's apparently also pretty rare...
There is a reason for it. For the general user the value of SSO with Matrix is pretty low. You still need your encryption keys to read encrypted rooms (and direct messages) and those aren't on the SSO server. Also if opensuse hosts opensuse rooms on own server but uses federation then people do not need to re-register in the first place because they can access the rooms from whatever homeserver they happened to be registered with. And if one homeserver splits in two that block each other that does not affect the ability of people on either to access the opensuse rooms. Then there is not much point in taking over a home server in the first place and it is much less likely for such situation to evolve. Thanks Michal
On Thu, May 27 2021 at 16:03:47 +0200, Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
There is a reason for it. For the general user the value of SSO with Matrix is pretty low. You still need your encryption keys to read encrypted rooms (and direct messages) and those aren't on the SSO server.
It still means one less login/password pair though, lower barrier to entry for the existing community members
Also if opensuse hosts opensuse rooms on own server but uses federation then people do not need to re-register in the first place because they can access the rooms from whatever homeserver they happened to be registered with. And if one homeserver splits in two that block each other that does not affect the ability of people on either to access the opensuse rooms. Then there is not much point in taking over a home server in the first place and it is much less likely for such situation to evolve.
I agree, still, I don't want to recommend people sign up with something we don't run for quite obvious reasons ;) LCP [Sasi] https://lcp.world
Sasi Olin schrieb:
With more modern protocols with native authentication it might be also easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time.
That would be true, if it wasn't for Matrix clients not implementing SSO for the most part, which is kind of a requirement for us to use the existing login system. I know of 2 clients that implement it in the entire ecosystem.
As Mozilla has switch from IRC to Matrix due to multiple reasons (including spam defense as well as the requirement to be able to enforce community guidelines so synchronous chat can be a safe place for everyone) and is using SSO for users created on their instance (people from elsewhere can still join all the rooms via federation though), I checked Mozilla's wiki page for clients they list as supported with SSO: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Matrix#Clients There are more than 2 listed there already, and the list may not be complete as the last edit of the page was 2 months ago. And even without SSO, Matrix is definitely "easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time" IMHO - even more so as you can e.g. have a home server that requires SSO but is federated so people can even log into another server without SSO and then join rooms on yours, like Mozilla did. (That said, Mozilla isn't actually operating that instance themselves but pay Element to do that for them.) KaiRo
* Robert Kaiser <kairo@kairo.at> [05-27-21 21:44]:
Sasi Olin schrieb:
With more modern protocols with native authentication it might be also easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time.
That would be true, if it wasn't for Matrix clients not implementing SSO for the most part, which is kind of a requirement for us to use the existing login system. I know of 2 clients that implement it in the entire ecosystem.
As Mozilla has switch from IRC to Matrix due to multiple reasons (including spam defense as well as the requirement to be able to enforce community guidelines so synchronous chat can be a safe place for everyone) and is using SSO for users created on their instance (people from elsewhere can still join all the rooms via federation though), I checked Mozilla's wiki page for clients they list as supported with SSO: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Matrix#Clients There are more than 2 listed there already, and the list may not be complete as the last edit of the page was 2 months ago.
And even without SSO, Matrix is definitely "easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time" IMHO - even more so as you can e.g. have a home server that requires SSO but is federated so people can even log into another server without SSO and then join rooms on yours, like Mozilla did. (That said, Mozilla isn't actually operating that instance themselves but pay Element to do that for them.)
be that what it may, konversation, irssi and weechat make irc very easy, especially with the ample instructions and help files. irc is only difficult when one attempts to bend it to fit one will, ie: not just use it as it comes for conversation. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On Fri, 28 May 2021 03:42:54 +0200, Robert Kaiser <kairo@kairo.at> wrote:
And even without SSO, Matrix is definitely "easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time" IMHO - even more so as you can e.g. have a home server that requires SSO but is federated so people can even log into another server without SSO and then join rooms on yours, like Mozilla did. (That said, Mozilla isn't actually operating that instance themselves but pay Element to do that for them.)
Whatever client (don't want a bikeshed) required for whatever protocol Note that moving from IRC to whatever might gain new people, but for sure also will chase people away. I've seen the move from IRC to Slack and Mattermost and several other and *NONE* (IMHO) were improvements over IRC. IRC make me have a simple neverending log in which I can search fast. All the "modern" stuff like Teams, Slack, Mattermost and Matrix have "enhanced" GUI's that just bloat the information being shared. IRC is extremely simple: it is text and text only (Unicode enables some smileys etc, but at least it has no shit like stickers and animated gif's like Telegram and friends. When moving away from IRC (for whatever reason) you will take away a valuable source of contact with the user base. My 2¢
KaiRo
-- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.33 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
* H.Merijn Brand <linux@tux.freedom.nl> [06-01-21 14:56]:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 03:42:54 +0200, Robert Kaiser <kairo@kairo.at> wrote:
And even without SSO, Matrix is definitely "easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time" IMHO - even more so as you can e.g. have a home server that requires SSO but is federated so people can even log into another server without SSO and then join rooms on yours, like Mozilla did. (That said, Mozilla isn't actually operating that instance themselves but pay Element to do that for them.)
Whatever client (don't want a bikeshed) required for whatever protocol
Note that moving from IRC to whatever might gain new people, but for sure also will chase people away. I've seen the move from IRC to Slack and Mattermost and several other and *NONE* (IMHO) were improvements over IRC. IRC make me have a simple neverending log in which I can search fast. All the "modern" stuff like Teams, Slack, Mattermost and Matrix have "enhanced" GUI's that just bloat the information being shared.
IRC is extremely simple: it is text and text only (Unicode enables some smileys etc, but at least it has no shit like stickers and animated gif's like Telegram and friends.
When moving away from IRC (for whatever reason) you will take away a valuable source of contact with the user base.
My 2¢
KaiRo
my plus(es) +++ -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On 5/27/21 10:53 PM, Michal Suchánek wrote:
Hello,
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 12:04:51PM +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-... https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
It might be reasonable to ask if some more recent protocol like Matrix would be less prone to issues like this.
With more modern protocols with native authentication it might be also easier for people to connect than navigating the baroque maze of antispam measures that have been attached on top of IRC over time.
Unfortunaltey, the openSUSE community over at Matrix does not look particularly thriving.
This is a work in progress by some members of the Heroes team, The group on Discord is thriving and some work has been done to link its channels to ones in matrix, further work is on going to also look at linking select channels between all 3. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 15:23:56 CEST schrieb Michal Suchánek:
Hello,
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 12:04:51PM +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-b y-the-crown-prince-of-korea/ https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
I don't think being a Korean prince disqualifies anybody from operating an IRC network. I don't think anyone in the debate ever made that claim.
People leave for practical reasons like:
With the recent forced takeover of hundreds of freenode channels by the staff and adjusting the ToS around the time of the takeover to justify it the current operators have proven themselves unfit for running a community network.
It might be reasonable to ask if some more recent protocol like Matrix would be less prone to issues like this. I would agree, but the only really viable client is still just Element which is bloated and clunky. You can't use multiple accounts with most clients either.
regards
* Maximilian Trummer <maximilian@trummer.xyz> [05-27-21 14:35]:
Am Donnerstag, 27. Mai 2021, 15:23:56 CEST schrieb Michal Suchánek:
Hello,
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 12:04:51PM +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Hi everyone,
as some of you noticed, lately there've been challenges around Freenode, the IRC network that has been home to a number of openSUSE channels for years.
See, for example, https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-b y-the-crown-prince-of-korea/ https://news.itsfoss.com/freenode-controversy/
I don't think being a Korean prince disqualifies anybody from operating an IRC network. I don't think anyone in the debate ever made that claim.
People leave for practical reasons like:
With the recent forced takeover of hundreds of freenode channels by the staff and adjusting the ToS around the time of the takeover to justify it the current operators have proven themselves unfit for running a community network.
It might be reasonable to ask if some more recent protocol like Matrix would be less prone to issues like this. I would agree, but the only really viable client is still just Element which is bloated and clunky. You can't use multiple accounts with most clients either.
I find weechat *and*/*or* konversation quite capable and have been using for years, and keep a full backlog of channels intresting to me. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
participants (33)
-
Alin Marin Elena -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Fridrich Strba -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Glenn Holmer -
H.Merijn Brand -
İsmail Dönmez -
Jan Engelhardt -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Johannes Meixner -
Jonathan Arsenault -
Juergen Gross -
Lubos Kocman -
Malcolm -
Marcel Kühlhorn -
Martin Wilck -
Martin Wilck -
Maximilian Trummer -
Michal Suchánek -
Neal Gompa -
Neal Gompa -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Predrag Ivanović -
Richard Brown -
Robert Kaiser -
Sasi Olin -
Simon Lees -
Stefan Seyfried -
Syds Bearda -
Togan Muftuoglu -
Vojtěch Zeisek