[opensuse-factory] Offtopic: Arch Linux compared to openSUSE Tumbleweed
I am not sure where I should have posted this question/comparison and I am sorry if this is not the proper location. For the last several years I have been using ubuntu on my stable linux installations and Arch Linux for my bleeding edge ones. Now that Tumbleweed seems to have become, from a small project, an important part of openSUSE I was thinking that maybe I could use openSUSE stable (Leap) on my stable computers and Tumbleweed for my bleeding edge installations to make my life a little easier by not having to use two very different systems. So I tested in the last few weeks openSUSE Tumbleweed and these are my conclusions: http://i.imgur.com/3OPbRnk.png?1 I am posting this as an image because it's easier to see the comparison with proper side by side formatting and I can't do that in an email. As you can see, from my point of view, it seems that Arch is still the better option *for me* (as this is a comparison for my needs, for someone else some of the points where I chose a winner would be reversed). The most important part was Nr.1 because I didn't find in the main official repositories some of the software I am using (like Eclipse and Code::Blocks), and some where missing even from OBS (like teamviewer and truecrypt). But I am not sure about several points since I am new to openSUSE so maybe you can correct me. I am posting this here because I was kind of hoping openSUSE would win because like I said it would make my life easier to use one distribution instead of two, so I was hoping that maybe you could correct me if my comparison is wrong and maybe you who know Tumbleweed much better than me have some good arguments about why it is better than Arch (because if you thought Arch is better I assume you would not be here). So what is your opinion about this and the points I made in my comparison? Thank you and once again I hope I didn't post in the wrong place, Catalin PS: This is my second try to post this, first time it was rejected automatically with no reasons given and someone from the openSUE forum said that it might be because of HTML formatting so I am trying again. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2015-08-06 22:34, Catalin wrote:
Even though handling many repositories gets unwieldly, adding them is not a total showstopper either IMO. Their absence from the main repository means that no one has found it important enough yet to copy it from its development project to Main. Perhaps that is a task you would like to take? After all, applications live and die with their users.
and some where missing even from OBS (like teamviewer
Which has to do with licensing of proprietary software, and mode of distribution thereof. There is a difference between redistribution, and running a script on the user's behalf (much like fetchmsttfonts).
and truecrypt).
With the questionable security - and licensing - the interest in having this package plummeted. Given cryptsetup can handle tcrypt volumes (so its manpage suggests), that does not seem to be a loss.
7. Packages are split into many small parts
Which has a technical background https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Shared_library_packaging_policy Debian does the same. But why care - it's not like users really have to bother with the number of installable subentities.
14. additional unofficial repository (AUR/OBS), some smaller some larger
Yeah the numbers are on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions but those kind of numerical comparisons are not useful, usually because the extra umpteenth thousand packages are niche software irrespective of distribution.
16. probably
Probably not. (See below)
17. completely independent community / partially supported by SUSE
So that's a win for openSUSE then, because they have not only the community, but also SUSE.
So what is your opinion about this and the points I made in my comparison?
No news there. Every user's tally should have less of "probably $so" and more of "tried $that and found it to be $so". Bonus points if based on hard facts, e.g. bad: "tried apt-get and found it to be so-so" good: "due to lack of a SAT solver, apt does not offer different ways of package conflict resolution" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 08/06/2015 01:34 PM, Catalin wrote:
I've seen nothing in any other distro that compares to kiwi[1] in terms of ease of creating custom respins. This shows in the statistics in SUSE Studio[2] (with a kiwi-based backend) where SUSE distros have thousands of published respins. (How many *buntu respins can you name?) JeOS is thin & light; and even our Docker images get kudos for their lightweight nature. As far as design, I find many other distros under-engineered, and lacking in these areas: e.g. finding the /etc/skel in Raspbian to contain 1 file; the btrfs subvolume design required to facilitate snapper; YaST and its ability to cooperate with existing configurations (like via /etc/sysconfig). These things I consider to be engineering benefits, not clutter. [1] http://opensuse.github.io/kiwi/ https://doc.opensuse.org/projects/kiwi/doc/ [2] https://susestudio.com/browse - -- James Mason Technical Architect, Public Cloud openSUSE Member SUSE jmason@suse.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSECon 2015: Register at susecon.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJVw9aLAAoJEBs5UYhsRJAjrGYH/1CZG6UnafYkrb6R/MgiPDm1 Q9ZJH+voKxwo3fkjfZ+ZzjB7nFB2rUK/u75Y/yO0FC7ATV1Y2L+KkB3zOh22SO1x diR/ftCTQqtrjGyzyx9WgRsYm6PcOFb974DBYR3Bmt3+mWNcLLNP0kUuOz1qAbi9 jn6+qy9dbElQEslwu84nCNFWWKPGnimv/NwgSkHinewPtuQw+yIHL3MT5u8Hxczr KS+YFWjre1psMTJj7CIvUDSNqkAxKw5D9dvnRCvbXSSml9f11MH6jvC2Q63ZJp+U Doe+6Oz4I7jSFOuLTsSU2Xj1otKaGQvWv73NsPyP8zs2Yp+rAMXPC7LfdBXg5DA= =BNlR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 6. August 2015 schrieb Catalin:
You already got some answers, so let me add the missing ones: 4) there's /etc/init.d/rpmconfigcheck to list *.rpmnew files [1]. IIRC we also have a script that opens those files in vimdiff to make merging easier, but I don't remember its name :-( 5) following news.opensuse.org or the opensuse-announce mailinglist should be helpful - but obviously everything depends on your definition of "important announcements which require special attention" ;-) 6) if you configure your repos to keep downloaded packages and add the package cache as local repo, you can easily use zypper in foo-1.2 to install this specific version. YaST also allows to choose the version to install. We had a discussion around that just some days ago - if you just subscribed, please have a look at the list archives. (Keeping the packages is easy, the problem is to find a good way to define when a package is "too old" and can be deleted. But with nowaday's disk space, keeping too much isn't really a problem ;-) 15) I'd probably say the same about creating packages for Arch ;-) because I don't know how to do that. Once you understand how to write a *.spec file, it's easy. https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Packaging should get you started. 16) No - "osc build foo.spec" Regards, Christian Boltz [1] it was running as initscript some years/releases ago and should probably be moved to /usr/bin or /usr/sbin/ nowadays. I just opened https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=940993 for this ;-) -- ist eine recht interessante rechnung: 3,5kg linux + bücher für €79,90 180g windows xp home ohne bücher €229,- kennt jemand den feinunzenpreis von gold? er müßte kanpp unter dem von windows liegen .... [Wilhelm Feichter in suse-linux] Regards, Christian Boltz -- Personal Firewall bietet Schutz vor klassischen Angriffen -- Was hat man unter "klassischen Angriffen" zu verstehen? -- Seltsam angezogene Fremde rollen ein riesiges Holzpferd vor Deine Haustür... [Johannes Sackmann, Heiko Schlenker, Ralf Bürckner] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 2015-08-07 22:11, Christian Boltz wrote:
The world is also moving towards setups where distro defaults live in /usr, and where /etc contains only system-specific modifications - if any at all. So the vision here is that there won't be any .rpmnew cases in the future. --
Over a 15-year period, Gold has risen by 200% in numeric value, Windows stayed quite the same. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2015-08-06 22:34, Catalin wrote:
Even though handling many repositories gets unwieldly, adding them is not a total showstopper either IMO. Their absence from the main repository means that no one has found it important enough yet to copy it from its development project to Main. Perhaps that is a task you would like to take? After all, applications live and die with their users.
and some where missing even from OBS (like teamviewer
Which has to do with licensing of proprietary software, and mode of distribution thereof. There is a difference between redistribution, and running a script on the user's behalf (much like fetchmsttfonts).
and truecrypt).
With the questionable security - and licensing - the interest in having this package plummeted. Given cryptsetup can handle tcrypt volumes (so its manpage suggests), that does not seem to be a loss.
7. Packages are split into many small parts
Which has a technical background https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Shared_library_packaging_policy Debian does the same. But why care - it's not like users really have to bother with the number of installable subentities.
14. additional unofficial repository (AUR/OBS), some smaller some larger
Yeah the numbers are on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions but those kind of numerical comparisons are not useful, usually because the extra umpteenth thousand packages are niche software irrespective of distribution.
16. probably
Probably not. (See below)
17. completely independent community / partially supported by SUSE
So that's a win for openSUSE then, because they have not only the community, but also SUSE.
So what is your opinion about this and the points I made in my comparison?
No news there. Every user's tally should have less of "probably $so" and more of "tried $that and found it to be $so". Bonus points if based on hard facts, e.g. bad: "tried apt-get and found it to be so-so" good: "due to lack of a SAT solver, apt does not offer different ways of package conflict resolution" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 08/06/2015 01:34 PM, Catalin wrote:
I've seen nothing in any other distro that compares to kiwi[1] in terms of ease of creating custom respins. This shows in the statistics in SUSE Studio[2] (with a kiwi-based backend) where SUSE distros have thousands of published respins. (How many *buntu respins can you name?) JeOS is thin & light; and even our Docker images get kudos for their lightweight nature. As far as design, I find many other distros under-engineered, and lacking in these areas: e.g. finding the /etc/skel in Raspbian to contain 1 file; the btrfs subvolume design required to facilitate snapper; YaST and its ability to cooperate with existing configurations (like via /etc/sysconfig). These things I consider to be engineering benefits, not clutter. [1] http://opensuse.github.io/kiwi/ https://doc.opensuse.org/projects/kiwi/doc/ [2] https://susestudio.com/browse - -- James Mason Technical Architect, Public Cloud openSUSE Member SUSE jmason@suse.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSECon 2015: Register at susecon.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJVw9aLAAoJEBs5UYhsRJAjrGYH/1CZG6UnafYkrb6R/MgiPDm1 Q9ZJH+voKxwo3fkjfZ+ZzjB7nFB2rUK/u75Y/yO0FC7ATV1Y2L+KkB3zOh22SO1x diR/ftCTQqtrjGyzyx9WgRsYm6PcOFb974DBYR3Bmt3+mWNcLLNP0kUuOz1qAbi9 jn6+qy9dbElQEslwu84nCNFWWKPGnimv/NwgSkHinewPtuQw+yIHL3MT5u8Hxczr KS+YFWjre1psMTJj7CIvUDSNqkAxKw5D9dvnRCvbXSSml9f11MH6jvC2Q63ZJp+U Doe+6Oz4I7jSFOuLTsSU2Xj1otKaGQvWv73NsPyP8zs2Yp+rAMXPC7LfdBXg5DA= =BNlR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 6. August 2015 schrieb Catalin:
You already got some answers, so let me add the missing ones: 4) there's /etc/init.d/rpmconfigcheck to list *.rpmnew files [1]. IIRC we also have a script that opens those files in vimdiff to make merging easier, but I don't remember its name :-( 5) following news.opensuse.org or the opensuse-announce mailinglist should be helpful - but obviously everything depends on your definition of "important announcements which require special attention" ;-) 6) if you configure your repos to keep downloaded packages and add the package cache as local repo, you can easily use zypper in foo-1.2 to install this specific version. YaST also allows to choose the version to install. We had a discussion around that just some days ago - if you just subscribed, please have a look at the list archives. (Keeping the packages is easy, the problem is to find a good way to define when a package is "too old" and can be deleted. But with nowaday's disk space, keeping too much isn't really a problem ;-) 15) I'd probably say the same about creating packages for Arch ;-) because I don't know how to do that. Once you understand how to write a *.spec file, it's easy. https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Packaging should get you started. 16) No - "osc build foo.spec" Regards, Christian Boltz [1] it was running as initscript some years/releases ago and should probably be moved to /usr/bin or /usr/sbin/ nowadays. I just opened https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=940993 for this ;-) -- ist eine recht interessante rechnung: 3,5kg linux + bücher für €79,90 180g windows xp home ohne bücher €229,- kennt jemand den feinunzenpreis von gold? er müßte kanpp unter dem von windows liegen .... [Wilhelm Feichter in suse-linux] Regards, Christian Boltz -- Personal Firewall bietet Schutz vor klassischen Angriffen -- Was hat man unter "klassischen Angriffen" zu verstehen? -- Seltsam angezogene Fremde rollen ein riesiges Holzpferd vor Deine Haustür... [Johannes Sackmann, Heiko Schlenker, Ralf Bürckner] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 2015-08-07 22:11, Christian Boltz wrote:
The world is also moving towards setups where distro defaults live in /usr, and where /etc contains only system-specific modifications - if any at all. So the vision here is that there won't be any .rpmnew cases in the future. --
Over a 15-year period, Gold has risen by 200% in numeric value, Windows stayed quite the same. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Catalin -
Christian Boltz -
James Mason -
Jan Engelhardt