[opensuse-factory] Monitoring health of packages and how to identify what packages need help?
Hello team, this is a follow up on "Improving visibility between maintainers and end-users?" previously posted on opensuse-project@ https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00140.html There was a continuation on the thread in the form of a Jitsi meeting: Meeting minutes: https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-28082020-users-maintainer... I did contact board representative to double-check whether this would be a topic for openSUSE Board, but the recommendation was to approach opensuse-factory@ instead. **I'd also like to know what would be the personal recommendation for the next steps of both candidates for the openSUSE Board since voting is still open.** The discussion identified two problems that we'd like to address: * I'm new to openSUSE and I want to help. What are the packages that currently need help and how can I start contributing? There is currently not a single source of truth for such information. - Neal mentioned that Fedora is trying to address the issue with some sort of Developer dashboard that displays over the health of packages where users can identify packages in a bad shape. - I did mention the current bug smashing effort which is still blocked on the agreed bug handling policy. https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-bug-smashing-ideas-202008... People could proactively come to a session (20 minutes twice a week) and volunteer to work on outstanding bugs. The second issue is related to the same problem which is the health of packages. * I'm an existing user and nobody is looking at my submit requests for specific packages. I can't be easily set as a maintainer as I'm not a maintainer of related devel project. I want to help but I'm stuck - How do we ensure that outstanding maintainership (either packages or devel projects) are processed? Can we gamify the topic to motivate people to actively contribute? E.g. Libreoffice Badges*? - Something like LibreOffice badges would also help with the recognition of people who participated in Leap releases or were highlighted as part of release retrospective. See my recent post on opensuse-marketing@ What are your thoughts? And who should be the owner of these two issues? [0] - https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/03/10/announcing-open-badges-f... -- Best regards Luboš Kocman Release Manager openSUSE Leap SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�
On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 17:50, Lubos Kocman <lubos.kocman@suse.com> wrote:
**I'd also like to know what would be the personal recommendation for the next steps of both candidates for the openSUSE Board since voting is still open.**
I already briefly discussed this with Adrien, because he had an issue with sending the initial email on the mailing lists and reached out to a few heroes to resolve it. This topic also already partially came up when we had a software-o-o workshop on oSC 19. The solutions we discussed then were more related to fixing the issue of packages being in home projects rather than official repositories, or packages being outdated, and users being able to learn of any outstanding issues of certain packages, using community-submitted comments. It might also be relevant to my ongoing work to migrate openSUSE Forums to Discourse.
The discussion identified two problems that we'd like to address:
* I'm new to openSUSE and I want to help. What are the packages that currently need help and how can I start contributing? There is currently not a single source of truth for such information.
This needs improvements to Bugzilla. Bugzilla needs to know OBS's packages, and allow to map one with the other. A thing similar to this (although connected to koji and not OBS afaik) is already a part of RH Bugzilla.
- Neal mentioned that Fedora is trying to address the issue with some sort of Developer dashboard that displays over the health of packages where users can identify packages in a bad shape.
Currently probably the only thing that can be addressed by such a dashboard in openSUSE distros is outdated versions of the packages, that's very important, but I don't think we need a dashboard for it. Just sending an email, notifying with OBS or Bugzilla bug in some way would be a huge improvement over the status quo. There was somebody implementing release-monitoring support into OBS, but idk where that ended up. We also already have a dashboard for rpmlint on https://rpmlint.opensuse.org/
- I did mention the current bug smashing effort which is still blocked on the agreed bug handling policy. https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-bug-smashing-ideas-202008... People could proactively come to a session (20 minutes twice a week) and volunteer to work on outstanding bugs.
The second issue is related to the same problem which is the health of packages.
* I'm an existing user and nobody is looking at my submit requests for specific packages. I can't be easily set as a maintainer as I'm not a maintainer of related devel project. I want to help but I'm stuck
Why is that a blocker? IMO giving maintainership to anyone that wants it makes a lot of sense. It could be a good idea to clean up inactive maintainers as well, since that makes it more obvious who to reach out to.
- How do we ensure that outstanding maintainership (either packages or devel projects) are processed? Can we gamify the topic to motivate people to actively contribute? E.g. Libreoffice Badges*?
- Something like LibreOffice badges would also help with the recognition of people who participated in Leap releases or were highlighted as part of release retrospective. See my recent post on opensuse-marketing@
Gamification of anything and everything around us is already dangerous enough, we really don't need to contribute to the problem any further. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 28.08.20 um 22:45 schrieb Stasiek Michalski:
Currently probably the only thing that can be addressed by such a dashboard in openSUSE distros is outdated versions of the packages, that's very important, but I don't think we need a dashboard for it.
Not always correct, but also not a terribly bad approximation: <https://repology.org/projects/?inrepo=opensuse_tumbleweed&outdated=1>. Best regards, Aaron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 29. August 2020, 00:59:55 CEST schrieb Aaron Puchert:
Am 28.08.20 um 22:45 schrieb Stasiek Michalski:
Currently probably the only thing that can be addressed by such a dashboard in openSUSE distros is outdated versions of the packages, that's very important, but I don't think we need a dashboard for it.
Not always correct, but also not a terribly bad approximation: <https://repology.org/projects/?inrepo=opensuse_tumbleweed&outdated=1>.
And? Every now and then there is a good reason to not update to the latest version of a package, simply because it breaks a couple of depending packages (Yes, we reorganized the code, and no, we did not adapt the plugins). Cheers Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 29.08.20 um 13:36 schrieb Axel Braun:
Am Samstag, 29. August 2020, 00:59:55 CEST schrieb Aaron Puchert:
Am 28.08.20 um 22:45 schrieb Stasiek Michalski:
Currently probably the only thing that can be addressed by such a dashboard in openSUSE distros is outdated versions of the packages, that's very important, but I don't think we need a dashboard for it.
Not always correct, but also not a terribly bad approximation: <https://repology.org/projects/?inrepo=opensuse_tumbleweed&outdated=1>.
And? Every now and then there is a good reason to not update to the latest version of a package, simply because it breaks a couple of depending packages (Yes, we reorganized the code, and no, we did not adapt the plugins).
Nobody was saying that outdated versions are necessarily a problem, but it's still interesting to see where we are. Sometimes we've just genuinely missed an update and there is no good reason for that. Best regards, Aaron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2020-08-29 at 18:55 +0200, Aaron Puchert wrote:
Am 29.08.20 um 13:36 schrieb Axel Braun:
Am Samstag, 29. August 2020, 00:59:55 CEST schrieb Aaron Puchert:
Am 28.08.20 um 22:45 schrieb Stasiek Michalski:
Currently probably the only thing that can be addressed by such a dashboard in openSUSE distros is outdated versions of the packages, that's very important, but I don't think we need a dashboard for it.
Not always correct, but also not a terribly bad approximation: < https://repology.org/projects/?inrepo=opensuse_tumbleweed&outdated=1> ;. I think we should slowly start putting links that could help into a single wiki page. e.g. :PackageHealth
And? Every now and then there is a good reason to not update to the latest version of a package, simply because it breaks a couple of depending packages (Yes, we reorganized the code, and no, we did not adapt the plugins).
Nobody was saying that outdated versions are necessarily a problem, but it's still interesting to see where we are. Sometimes we've just genuinely missed an update and there is no good reason for that.
Best regards, Aaron
-- Best regards Luboš Kocman Release Manager openSUSE Leap SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
On Fri, 2020-08-28 at 22:45 +0200, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 17:50, Lubos Kocman <lubos.kocman@suse.com> wrote:
**I'd also like to know what would be the personal recommendation for the next steps of both candidates for the openSUSE Board since voting is still open.**
I already briefly discussed this with Adrien, because he had an issue with sending the initial email on the mailing lists and reached out to a few heroes to resolve it. This topic also already partially came up when we had a software-o-o workshop on oSC 19. The solutions we discussed then were more related to fixing the issue of packages being in home projects rather than official repositories, or packages being outdated, and users being able to learn of any outstanding issues of certain packages, using community-submitted comments. It might also be relevant to my ongoing work to migrate openSUSE Forums to Discourse.
The discussion identified two problems that we'd like to address:
* I'm new to openSUSE and I want to help. What are the packages that currently need help and how can I start contributing? There is currently not a single source of truth for such information.
This needs improvements to Bugzilla. Bugzilla needs to know OBS's packages, and allow to map one with the other. A thing similar to this (although connected to koji and not OBS afaik) is already a part of RH Bugzilla.
(Speaking about RHEL not Fedora) The RH bugzilla component list was maintained manually by rel-eng (a script that consumes bugzilla components) and then later was taking over by a new package process for RHEL. Well defined new package process in openSUSE would already help. Especially if we'd define maintainer and he could say/check how much time is he willing to invest on the maintainership.
- Neal mentioned that Fedora is trying to address the issue with some sort of Developer dashboard that displays over the health of packages where users can identify packages in a bad shape.
Currently probably the only thing that can be addressed by such a dashboard in openSUSE distros is outdated versions of the packages, that's very important, but I don't think we need a dashboard for it. Just sending an email, notifying with OBS or Bugzilla bug in some way would be a huge improvement over the status quo. There was somebody implementing release-monitoring support into OBS, but idk where that ended up. We also already have a dashboard for rpmlint on https://rpmlint.opensuse.org/
- I did mention the current bug smashing effort which is still blocked on the agreed bug handling policy. https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-bug-smashing-ideas-202008... People could proactively come to a session (20 minutes twice a week) and volunteer to work on outstanding bugs.
The second issue is related to the same problem which is the health of packages.
* I'm an existing user and nobody is looking at my submit requests for specific packages. I can't be easily set as a maintainer as I'm not a maintainer of related devel project. I want to help but I'm stuck
Why is that a blocker? IMO giving maintainership to anyone that wants it makes a lot of sense. It could be a good idea to clean up inactive maintainers as well, since that makes it more obvious who to reach out to.
- How do we ensure that outstanding maintainership (either packages or devel projects) are processed? Can we gamify the topic to motivate people to actively contribute? E.g. Libreoffice Badges*?
- Something like LibreOffice badges would also help with the recognition of people who participated in Leap releases or were highlighted as part of release retrospective. See my recent post on opensuse-marketing@
Gamification of anything and everything around us is already dangerous enough, we really don't need to contribute to the problem any further.
LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
-- -- Best regards Luboš Kocman Release Manager openSUSE Leap SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Hello, Congratz to Stasiek for his election to the board! :four leaf clover Thanks Lubos for the nice summary on Etherpad. I think we still need to agree on the specific issues we are looking at. What I see: - - Orientation Issue: How to direct people who want to help to packages that need it the most? this implies two sub-issues: . . Data aggregation + displaying Issue: How to conceptualize, quantify and broadcast information about the health of packages that need it the most? A key point here (which we didn't have time to discuss is: Should to the quantification of the health of a given package reflect the feeling of end-users? Of maintainers? Of formally established rules written into the OBS infrastructure (like response time to submit requests, intervals between commits, etc.) ? As I see it this requires a discussion about the strategy openSUSE wants to see applied, doesn't it? . . Consolidation Issue (thanks Stasiek for bringing up this point): no matter how many sources of truth there are about packages, there should be at least 1 site where the information is consolidated, so that for instance Bugzilla bug tickets about package x are sorted under and visible from package x on OBS Also there are two "policy" issues: - - Having home repos migrated to distribution repos when appropriate (fi rst paragraph of Stasiek's email above; and related to data aggregation and consolidation issues above) - - Having maintainers make themselves visible: (this came several times in the discussion so let's not forget about it; it may or may not be a sub-issue of the Orientation issue): How to encourage / recommend people who act as maintainers of a given package to fully endorse the role, at least in a formal way, in the sense of being the first contact point for users who want to make submit requests. I take it that's not an infrastructure issue because the User Roles tab of OBS is fine already. Now whether or not you agree with my classification I think we can all agree that these issues are interleaved to a point where it would be illusory to tackle them independently. For this reason, what about setting up a group / commission / whatever to try and fix them? I don't think there will be any progress if we just hope for incremental changes that would organically create a solution. What do you think? How do factory people feel about this? Are there changes in the pipes as far as software-o-o is concerned which could benefit to or from fix these issues? Also please excuse my naive approach, but is there somewhere a visual / flowchart-ish representation of the entire OBS / factory workflow concerning package creation and updates, from registering home repos to adding a package to displaying all related data on OBS? This might be helpful for teaching newcomers like me how things are done in the openSUSE universe. Also sometimes good documentation is visual documentation :) Have a pleasant afternoon. Adrien Le vendredi 28 août 2020 à 22:45 +0200, Stasiek Michalski a écrit :
On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 17:50, Lubos Kocman <lubos.kocman@suse.com> wrote:
**I'd also like to know what would be the personal recommendation for the next steps of both candidates for the openSUSE Board since voting is still open.**
I already briefly discussed this with Adrien, because he had an issue with sending the initial email on the mailing lists and reached out to a few heroes to resolve it. This topic also already partially came up when we had a software-o-o workshop on oSC 19. The solutions we discussed then were more related to fixing the issue of packages being in home projects rather than official repositories, or packages being outdated, and users being able to learn of any outstanding issues of certain packages, using community-submitted comments. It might also be relevant to my ongoing work to migrate openSUSE Forums to Discourse.
The discussion identified two problems that we'd like to address:
* I'm new to openSUSE and I want to help. What are the packages that currently need help and how can I start contributing? There is currently not a single source of truth for such information.
This needs improvements to Bugzilla. Bugzilla needs to know OBS's packages, and allow to map one with the other. A thing similar to this (although connected to koji and not OBS afaik) is already a part of RH Bugzilla.
- Neal mentioned that Fedora is trying to address the issue with some sort of Developer dashboard that displays over the health of packages where users can identify packages in a bad shape.
Currently probably the only thing that can be addressed by such a dashboard in openSUSE distros is outdated versions of the packages, that's very important, but I don't think we need a dashboard for it. Just sending an email, notifying with OBS or Bugzilla bug in some way would be a huge improvement over the status quo. There was somebody implementing release-monitoring support into OBS, but idk where that ended up. We also already have a dashboard for rpmlint on https://rpmlint.opensuse.org/
- I did mention the current bug smashing effort which is still blocked on the agreed bug handling policy. https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-bug-smashing-ideas-202008... People could proactively come to a session (20 minutes twice a week) and volunteer to work on outstanding bugs.
The second issue is related to the same problem which is the health of packages.
* I'm an existing user and nobody is looking at my submit requests for specific packages. I can't be easily set as a maintainer as I'm not a maintainer of related devel project. I want to help but I'm stuck
Why is that a blocker? IMO giving maintainership to anyone that wants it makes a lot of sense. It could be a good idea to clean up inactive maintainers as well, since that makes it more obvious who to reach out to.
- How do we ensure that outstanding maintainership (either packages or devel projects) are processed? Can we gamify the topic to motivate people to actively contribute? E.g. Libreoffice Badges*?
- Something like LibreOffice badges would also help with the recognition of people who participated in Leap releases or were highlighted as part of release retrospective. See my recent post on opensuse-marketing@
Gamification of anything and everything around us is already dangerous enough, we really don't need to contribute to the problem any further.
LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
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Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org> writes:
The discussion identified two problems that we'd like to address:
* I'm new to openSUSE and I want to help. What are the packages that currently need help and how can I start contributing? There is currently not a single source of truth for such information.
This needs improvements to Bugzilla. Bugzilla needs to know OBS's packages, and allow to map one with the other. A thing similar to this (although connected to koji and not OBS afaik) is already a part of RH Bugzilla.
Definitely, the Fedora/RHEL Bugzilla handles this far better, where you can explicitly search for bugs assigned to a specific package. Currently we only assign bugs automatically to a maintainer if they've set themselves as a bugowner (otherwise it is afaik done manually). This has the huge disadvantage, that if the maintainer changes, then bugs don't get re-assigned and you cannot really find out which bugs are reported against which package.
- Neal mentioned that Fedora is trying to address the issue with some sort of Developer dashboard that displays over the health of packages where users can identify packages in a bad shape.
Hm, I don't think that the new packager dashboard is really useful for that. It is rather intended to provide an overview of the state of each of your packages to individual maintainers.
There was somebody implementing release-monitoring support into OBS, but idk where that ended up.
I have looked into that a bit last year, but unfortunately did not find the time to really finish that work. It would mostly require to extend the-new-hotness (https://github.com/fedora-infra/the-new-hotness) to notify maintainers or (as the second iteration) create submitrequests on OBS. If anyone wants to tackle this, feel free to reach out to me, as I unfortunately won't have time to finish this in the foreseeable future. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:51 AM Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> wrote:
Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org> writes:
The discussion identified two problems that we'd like to address:
* I'm new to openSUSE and I want to help. What are the packages that currently need help and how can I start contributing? There is currently not a single source of truth for such information.
This needs improvements to Bugzilla. Bugzilla needs to know OBS's packages, and allow to map one with the other. A thing similar to this (although connected to koji and not OBS afaik) is already a part of RH Bugzilla.
Definitely, the Fedora/RHEL Bugzilla handles this far better, where you can explicitly search for bugs assigned to a specific package. Currently we only assign bugs automatically to a maintainer if they've set themselves as a bugowner (otherwise it is afaik done manually). This has the huge disadvantage, that if the maintainer changes, then bugs don't get re-assigned and you cannot really find out which bugs are reported against which package.
The Red Hat Bugzilla codebase is publicly available[1] and we could adapt the SUSE Bugzilla skin to it and deploy that... [1]: https://pagure.io/Red-Hat-Bugzilla/rh-bugzilla
- Neal mentioned that Fedora is trying to address the issue with some sort of Developer dashboard that displays over the health of packages where users can identify packages in a bad shape.
Hm, I don't think that the new packager dashboard is really useful for that. It is rather intended to provide an overview of the state of each of your packages to individual maintainers.
There is supposed to be a separate dashboard for this, I think in the packages app. But the new packages app isn't deployed yet, so I don't know for sure... -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Aaron Puchert -
Adrien Glauser -
Axel Braun -
Dan Čermák -
Lubos Kocman -
Neal Gompa -
Stasiek Michalski